My wife and I have been married for 15 years and have several fantastic boys together. She's a SAHM who has no desire to ever get back into the workforce (she has a technical degree in very high demand). I'm fortunate enough to have a great job that provides a comfortable lifestyle for us.

In exchange for my work, she does a ton around the home and is certainly the primary child-care provider, so it's not as though I'm trying to minimize her value. But, for years, I have wished she'd get a job and be able to support herself and her hobbies. Any time I've suggested this, it's been 100% shot down and I'm told that is her decision and she will not consider my opinions.

She is ultra-TBM and I am apostate. While we're united in our love for our kids, if you asked me honestly, I am no longer in love with her. Our paths have gone different directions, despite us sharing the same roof above our heads. Looking back with the eyes of wisdom, I can see we are not compatible. We got married because "any two, worthy members can make a marriage work" advice from prophets (yes, I was an RM and TBM). Honestly, we are so polar opposite. My humor annoys her and I find myself walking on egg-shells around her.

There are two sides to every story, and you're only hearing mine. I just feel she's untouchable, unwilling to ever admit any fault or ever apologize and ask for my forgiveness. Meeting her demands is exhuasting, and I am not one to shy away from hard work. I feel worn out.

We've done marriage counseling. The therapist, during my last meeting with him, tried to counsel me regarding divorce. Although he started optimistic about our marriage, at the end, he said there was gulf between us that couldn't be resolved unless she was willing to make major changes (she wasn't and has even admitted that she benefited from counseling-->I made major changes, but she didn't). Part of why we ended the counseling (after quite a few meetings) is that she got mad when he told her that her happiness was her problem: nothing I could do would make her happy. Happiness had to come from inside.

I try to reach across the gulf between us, and sometimes I see hope. But, most times I feel that it's not working. I'm giving up too much of myself to be in an unhappy marriage. I feel very weighed down.

I want her happy, too. I just don't believe I am the man that can do that for her.

Please note: I am not depressed or somebody I consider an unhappy person. I love my kids and most of the things in my life are really great. I have hobbies I enjoy, I love my kids, I enjoy keeping in great shape, I have fantastic friendships, and I like where I am spiritually/mentally/financially/career.

Despite how downbeat this topic seems...I do want things to work out for the best for both of us and our children. Has anybody been in my shoes? What did you do and are you glad the way it worked out?

Any advice?

I really need some.

You have my sympathy. I am in a similar situation. As I read other's stories-yours for instance-it occurs to me that most people, including myself, have not done such a hot job at making choices that are beneficial to one's self.

I have no advice, except for me to use myself as an example. I've 'gone along to get along' for nigh onto thirty years. In my life, no amount of counseling, coercion, threats, walk-outs, arguments, pleadings, etc. ever changed the basic relationship between us. Sure, there are promises made, but eventually we are like trained monkeys and fall back into the same old roles.

If you deem your marriage to be worse than the alternatives based on your current misery, go. It ain't gonna get better.

For my part, I recognize that I ain't all that and probably would have a very tough time finding someone to put up with me and not be a nutcase themselves. So, here I sit. I coulda, shoulda woulda, but...nope. I was too lazy, compliant, people-pleasing, yada, yada, yada to make my life better.

No advice to offer really.

I wouldn't use divorce as a threat, but it seems like that on the table and realizing the fact that she would have to go back to work at that point anyway might have some productive effect.

From what you've said, I think you'd be happier divorced but I'm no seer or revelator.

I'd probably tell her that you think it's time for a divorce. I wouldn't say the relationship is over, you don't seem to want to set that expectation. Go into it with the expectation that you will get divorced but be open to improvement along the way.

Clear up your financials and such in any case. She might hit you with divorce proceedings before you do it.

Having gone through a divorce after 30 years of marriage my only advice is to hang in there until both of you decide it's time for divorce. But my further advice is to lighten up on yourself and live your life for you and your kids. Forget your wife's needs and let her work out her own problems. My wife and I were divorced eight years and got remarried. Since then it has been so much better. We both worked on our individual problems during our divorced years and came back together more able to communicate with each other. That does not always work though. My wife is still TBM and I resigned in 2014. We simply don't discuss church topics at all and focus on our unconditional love for each other. All is well in Zion and Outer Darkness, respectively.

questioner1950 Wrote:
- my only advice is to hang in there until
> both of you decide it's time for divorce. But my
> further advice is to lighten up on yourself and
> live your life for you and your kids. Forget your
> wife's needs and let her work out her own
> problems.

I think this is excellent advice. Your wife is perfectly satisfied with her life as it is. She doesn't care about you to the extent that she cares if you are happy or not. It is all about her.

You sound very much alone in the midst of family and friends. It is a miserable way to live.

If you begin living for yourself and your kids, authentically, she will be uncomfortable enough that she will make some move.

I'm in a very close marriage, and it is a beautiful way to live. Hope you can get there either with this woman or someone else.

<<if you asked me honestly, I am no longer in love with her.>>

That's when.

In long term marriages, love ebbs and flows. There have been periods of time in my 32 year marriage where I would could honestly say I was not "in love" with my husband. I cared for him, but was not "in love" at that time. I believe he has gone through similar periods of time where he was not "in love" with me. The magic is in constructing major make-overs - like remodeling an old home with good architectural bones - and rediscovering our love for the beautiful, familiar characteristics in each other made new and fresh again.

Being a full time mom, your wife may have lost her sense of self and the importance of continuous development of her own talents, hobbies, and intellect. I know, I've been there. It's a tough hole to climb out of. If your kids are still young, the desire to give all that she is to her kids is often an all encompassing drive for some women, often at a great cost to their personal well being and the well being of their marriage. She may not be emotionally ready to start cutting the apron strings, so to speak.

My religious situation was like yours, only reversed. I apostasized and my husband remained TBM. I endured his condescending attitude towards me. I waited 12 years for him, it wasn't easy, but he was worth waiting for. It took work, but we managed to make-over a marriage that had good framing with beautiful and cherished architecture. We are both so happy now.

If life with your wife is generally good, would it hurt to remain a hopeful husband for a bit longer.... your wife may join you, yet.

Wonderful insight and great advice. If your words didn't help hopeful husband, they certainly helped me!

Sounds like a tough situation, I am by no means an expert of what to do in marriage, only an expert of what not to do! So take this for its worth.

Here is my perspective on it though, you sound like you are really only together for the kids at this point. Once the kids are grown and moved out, whats going to keep you together? I have heard many marriages end once the kids move out, but I cant say for sure if this is where your marriage is heading.

If you dont love her now, can you see yourself ever loving her? Sounds to me she isnt likely to change, so can you learn to love her as she is now? I dont know why anyone would want to stay married to someone if there is no love for one another. Maybe you get along, but I feel marriage isnt just about getting along.

Perhaps spend a couple months apart and see how the two of you feel about each other afterwards. Best luck to you in however it works out.

Jumping in this discussion again...your post has got me thinking hard about the business of marriage and family.

I believe that the difficulties in our marriage is partly a result of how we were raised. My Dad was orphaned as a child-his father took off when he realized that he was unable to support the family he created and his mother gave him up to be raised in a 'boy's home'. My Mom was raised by a foreign born gruff father who had a tough time with speaking English and a mother who did not know who her real parents were and was raised by foster parents. As such, as I reflect on my childhood, I realize that neither of my parents were capable of showing by example how to live as a coherent, loving and happy family.

My wife was raised Catholic and her family was put up to the parish as the 'perfect family'. All of them lived under the constant attention of the rest of the parish and could not publicly show any shortcomings. This fostered in all of the children an excellent talent for hiding their true selves and living a false life based on the demands of other's expectations. Essentially, they all knew how to pretend to be a good and happy family, but in reality had no idea how to be honest and genuine to one another and therefore were ill-equipped to be real parents.

Put us together and we're kinda pathetic and have no skills to make things right, so we muddle along trying not to hate each other and maintaining a safe distance so emotion is held at bay.

It's crummy, but we're well up in the years and, frankly, we are just waiting, biding our time, for the whole thing to just be over...

Starting again this late in the game is an overwhelming prospect for both of us to ponder.

I'm no marriage counselor or prophetess.

But you said you are tired of working so hard, trying to please her. You can't be happy living only to please someone else. You deserve support, respect, and consideration as well.

Maybe you can approach it from a different angle. Don't stand for putdowns of your point of view and stop walking on eggshells. Be who you are. Say what you think. Ask for what YOU need. This sounds like a bullying situation. She's emotionally beat you into submission, and she's calling the shots, but only because she thinks she has the moral authority and she can get away with it. From what I can gather, she's one of those TBM wives that's ready to kick you to the curb for leaving the church. REALLY? Why put up with it? What do you want to get out of the relationship at this point?

And she doesn't want to go back to work? Then she'd better be trying harder to make the marriage work.

I think you need to let her know that you aren't getting what YOU need out of the relationship, and you are trying to determine if you EVER will, or if it's time to end it.

Your marriage is over. You are partners in child rearing. You are also partners in making sure your wife gets what she wants. Read the book Co-Dependant No More. Now.

This post and your others have given me a great respect for you.
When you take the high road by acting in a classy, evolved, respectful mode, that is her fuel. I like it. She uses it.

Just ask yourself, do you want to be writing this same post five years from now?

If you want to get back to actually being a marriage, you have to force the issue. You have to be DONE with her behavior and your own.

I know two couples who were in terrible situations and when one ask for a divorce, it was the wake up call for the other, and finally they began honest conversations. They may stay together they may not, but suddenly no one had the advantage.

That is just my unprofessional blather. I wish you the best.

Divorce is not the end. Sometimes it's the beginning.

Just because your wife chooses not to be gainfully employed, does not mean the judge won't be willing to impute an income to her when calculating child support and alimony (if there is alimony in the state that you live in). It's the year 2015. In a divorce, it's becoming harder for the wife to argue that she "must" stay home with the kids, and that the husband "must" be the sole income provider, even post-divorce.

Of course it depends on which state you live in, some states are more progressive than others.

My advice:
- find an excellent family law attorney in your area
- develop a plan or path forward, especially with regards to housing
- do not be willing to accept anything but 50% joint physical and legal custody, DO NOT, this one is huge
- after you've gotten your ducks in a row with respect to a divorce, tentatively approach your wife, and see if you can work through the terms amicably, for both people it is much better on both your emotional health and your financial health if you can
- do not date for 6 - 12 months after the divorce, get your head straightened out emotionally first
- and finally, once you're on the other side of this mess, come back to RFM and tell us how much fun life is, and also how fulfilling it is, now that you don't have the morg monkey on your back, or in your bed



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2015 01:54PM by schlock.

I don't get why people think it is better to wait until the kids move out to divorce. My parents separated right around the time I went to college and it was more frustrating because I wasn't there. I had no idea what was going on and it was driving me crazy. Plus moving away from home for the first time is highly stressful on its own.

There is no good time to get divorced, but if I had to pick one it would be right now. As a child of parents who should have divorced a long time ago - do it. It is frustrating to watch two people you care about living miserably. The fact that they stayed together for the kids brings me no solace, only regret and some totally unjustified guilt. Your kids probably know where this is heading already they will adjust and adapt - that is what kids do best.

I agree. It sets a terrible example for the children. We look to our parents to see how intimate relationships are conducted. When your parents despise each other, or don't get along, or fight constantly, that sets you up for some really bad behaviors and habits in your own adult relationships.

You don't love her. It's over.

You had a good run, now you're done.

The idea that marriage should last a life time was popular

when the life expectancy was 40 years old. Times have

changed. Its not realistic to believe that two people

can stay together for a long long time. People change.

Good luck to you, life is too short to remain in an unhappy

relationship.

Have you considered a trial separation idea?

It might let both of you think about things without the other person constantly there.

There is life after divorce.

Walking on egg shells...ultra tbm...She sounds like a narcissist. You should research that to find out if she is.

My ex is a narcissist. Mormonism allows narcissists to thrive. The whole organization lacks empathy, starting with JS taking advantage of all women he was exposed to, to the racist BofM and racist policy for 126 yrs of denying blacks the priesthood, even implying those with a drop of black blood. Denying non tbms attendance at their own children's wedding, shaming and punishing masturbators... All creates a culture of conditional love, performance for salvation..


It's a toxic culture of lack of empathy. The cult is significantly responsible for creating this culture. If a narcissist stays in it, they will never change. They are so strong willed, they will adapt to a divorce, but will probably screw you in the process. Imo, there are few admirable graces in a narcissist, except for running a family, or being competent at work.

They aren't capable of love, because they can't feel empathy. She keeps you around because you provide for her, are a partner in child rearing, give her sex but usually only when she wants it. If you get ill/ disabled, or she wants more than you can give her, she will probably dump you in a heart beat.

At least that was my experience. The cult implying that any 2 temple worthy tbms should get married, like you and I did, is a huge huge huge mistake that has caused so much misery in Mormon relationships and families.

My marriage ended in divorce after 20 yrs. If your kids stay tbm, if you divorce, that will be a huge huge problem for you. Narcissists are very good at getting others on their side. They are heartless and will win any battle. All they care about is getting you and others to see their point if view, because they don't care about yours.

Your wife's behavior sounds just like my ex-wife's. My ex was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) early on in our relationship. This disorder has a bit of narcissism built in.

That said, I am not a psychologist so don't take my armchair diagnosis as gospel...just find out more about BPD and see if you can relate your situation to it.

By staying in a love-less marriage you are not doing you or her any favors. Just my 2 cents.

I've been following your tale for a while. Yours could be the fictionalized version of my tale and vice versa, though your situation sounds more dire.

My advice may not be useful, so you're getting what you pay for!

“We accept the love we think we deserve.” Chbosky

She doesn't respect you. The only thing worse than a never mo is someone who turned their back on the "truth". She can never respect you when this is her baseline. Never. And she will show it in many ways. Meanwhile, since she's still speshul, you need to bow to her every whim, respecting the bejeezus out of her!

How in the Flying Spagetti Monsters name is that a workable relationship? Unless you have zero, and I mean zero respect for yourself, this won't end like a fairy tale.

She's been told, and apparently believes, that if she goes to church/temple, she is entitled to happiness. It will just be granted to her. No work involved. You've upset the apple cart, thus YOU have to fix it. Unfortunately, that only works in movies.

You say your life is good otherwise. Is it good enough? You're the only one who can answer that question. Being without her could be better. Could being alone possibly be worse? I don't know.

You have an unenviable problem. We have an unenviable problem.

Godspeed!

Her hobbies will be a lot cheaper than child support for "several" boys . Stay together till the boys are gone...you won't regret it !!

Yes, but just think of the 10% offset!

I really enjoy your posts and think you are an amazing guy, but since I am in a really foul mood, but am just going to throw out two quick comments/questions. Please take them with a grain of salt.

1. Divorce may sound like a great solution until your kids have another dad. Can you live with that possibility?

2. Keep in mind that child rearing/homemaking for the Lord is primarily grunt work, especially if you have a keen mind. She may not be bringing in income but she has been SAVING YOU MONEY. Don't expect her to be thrilled about doing all this work plus start over in her career? My question for you? Are you willing to pick up 50 percent of her tasks? That would only be fair. Actually you should pick up 75 percent to allow her extra energy to focus on her career since you are well-established.

3. We all go through stages and phazes. She may be going though a mid-life crisis. You likely will have issues when you go though retirement from your "awesome" job. Sometimes will need to just persevere.

4. Do you really want to start over with someone else and add more baggage to your life?

Whenever I get pissy about my marriage I think about all of the above and it snaps me out of it...especially #1. Thinking about the consequences of divorce just might give your wife the incentive to work on your her marriage. Don't be afraid to lay it all out there.

I don't have time to read all the posts but one thing really stood out to me. You said you wanted her to get a job to support her hobbies. She has a job, she's taking care of the household and the kids. She should not have to get a job to support some hobbies if that's not what you two agreed to up front. Plus, the job would give her no time for her hobbies and she could end up miserable. Do you have hobbies? Should you have to get a second job to support them? No you shouldn't and neither should she.

If she is spending ridiculous amounts of money, then that could be a problem. If she's not and you can handle it financially, I say let her do some things she enjoys and don't harp on her about what it costs. You may have to set up a budget with her, but make it a two way conversation. The budget for your hobbies should also be taken into consideration. Get her involved in budgeting if she's not. Have some goals in mind. How much do you need to save for the kids to go to college, etc. How much money does that leave for hobbies that both of you have? Maybe if she gets more time and/or money for some activities outside of the family, she will be happier and perhaps the two of you can work it out. I hope you can.

hopefulhusband Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Any time I've suggested this, it's
> been 100% shot down and I'm told that is her
> decision and she will not consider my opinions.


Ask her how well she'd receive it if you made the unilateral decision to quit working and wouldn't consider her opinion on the matter.

As with your marriage, I spent most of mine feeling like I was always in the wrong while she refused to take any blame about anything. I got to where I couldn't take it anymore, so I left.

I think if the thought of it being over brings more relief than the thought of maybe working things out, then the marriage is over. It has been over a long time, from the moment she dug in her heels and refused to compromise. She doesn't want to work at the marriage; she just wants you to comply. And provide. You don't have a marriage, you have a living arrangement -- on her terms.

Of course, one of the crappy parts of ending your marriage is that you'll end up still supporting her unless you get a sharp attorney who can make it in her interest to go back to work.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2015 04:55PM by Stray Mutt.

"I just don't believe I am the man that can do that for her."

Nobody can do that for her. Her therapist said it, rightly, right to her face. Until she learns that happiness comes from within, NO MAN will ever be good enough for her and no man will ever make her happy.

I have no advice, because I am not married, never had kids, and would never go to therapy and refuse to work on the issues that I'm in therapy for.

But I can tell you that I know when a relationship is over when little signs of contempt start creeping in. Passive aggressive behavior, ignoring one another, namecalling, actual sniping. When you get to contempt, there's nothing left to work with. IMO.

It all depends on what you're willing to put up with and what you won't.

Dogzilla has it right about the contempt- There's a huge difference between being upset with a person and being contemptuous with that person. This usually leads into a "sudden death" fight where issues have been building up too long and both parties end up saying words that can't be taken back. It's usually the most salient sign the relationship is over.
I think it also is over when one or both parties become apathetic to the other. Love ebbs and flows, but indifference is a sign it's over, unless you're simply in it for the commitment and companionship (which many marriages are like that.)

Contempt. Disdain. Superiority.

In the book, Blink, they recount a study in which psychologists videotaped couples and their interactions before and during an interview.

One version of the videotape was very short--just a couple of minutes long. The psychologists just gave a quick impression of "Yes, they will stay together" or "No, they will not stay together."

The other videotape version was much longer and was analyzed for many behaviours.

When they looked at the results, the quick-impression call was amazingly accurate. The factor that seemed determinate was if one of the couple gave any indication of contempt, disdain or superiority toward the other. It was the kiss of death for the relationship!

You have children that are depending upon you to create a healthy environment for them the grow up into functional adults. Keep that in mind before rending their world in two. Seriously, while the problems referenced above aren't necessarily trivial, couples have had to work through far worse hurdles.

All I can do is pass along my experience. How did I know that my marriage was over? Eight months into my marriage my bride told me she had made a mistake getting married. She told me that she was too young, should have gotten her college degree first, that I had robbed her of her “college experience”, and that she should have married someone more spiritual who was a returned missionary. All this from someone who asked ME to marry HER!!

In hindsight, I should have left her right then. But I was young, dumb, scared, and had what I thought was an “eternal” marriage. She never apologized for her remarks. I didn’t really expect her to because they were sincere. They were so painful to me, and cut so deeply, I knew I could never recover from them. We went to speak with our Bishop who was a kind old guy whose only advice was, “All young married couples have difficulties.” From that point on though I could sense our lives together were moving in different directions.

Intimacy for us, a young married couple, was rare. We reached a point where sex was just a physical release. After a while I got tired of chasing and just said, “Hey, when you want it let me know.” Surprisingly…we had four kids. At social events with our friends we could be the life of the party. But as soon as we were alone driving home there would be silence…not a word spoken to each other. Together we would go out to see movies…that way we wouldn’t have to interact with each other. If we went out for dinner I would grab a newspaper on the way in, hand her the entertainment section, I’d take the sports and we could just read through our meal without having to speak or even look at each other.

She was a SAHM and I was fine with that. My work would be my cave and I spent as much time there (weekends included) as I possibly could. I dreaded going home and I felt guilty for taking that time away from my kids. I just couldn’t stand to be in the same house as my wife. There would be times when I would come home at night, see her sleeping in bed and say to myself, “Life would be so much better if you were dead.”

I became more and more withdrawn. I was no longer a bright, funny, spontaneous, happy-go-lucky, kind, loving, caring person. I could feel myself slipping into a darkness and I was just a shell of the person I once was. I knew I would not stay married to my wife long-term. My plan was, and I thought, I could stick things out until my kids left home. That became increasingly difficult and depressing to think about the years wasted to make that happen.

Then one day we got into an argument (rare, since we really didn’t speak to each other). She said, “You would NEVER be able to find anyone who would be willing to put up with your crap.” That was the straw that finally broke the camel’s back. I realized at that moment that even if she was correct, I would rather be ALONE than to spend more time with her. So after 19 years of hell, I left her. At that time I couldn’t even recall how many years it had been since we said “I love you” to each other. To make things even sweeter…I left the church as well.

Almost immediately I felt a weight being lifted from my shoulders. All of a sudden colors seemed brighter, the air smelled fresher, and the sun felt warmer on my face. I felt like Andy in The Shawshank Redemption crawling through a sewer pipe and emerging with arms extended and head tilted back standing in a cleansing rain. Before long I was back to the “old me” that I had abandoned years before. My staff at work (who had been with me for years) were shocked and surprised by the new me…and they liked it a lot.

Because I had a small apartment that I lived in, it wasn’t conducive to having my kids visit me. So instead for a couple of years I would visit with them EVERY NIGHT for a couple of hours. This was not easy to do, but a sacrifice I was willing to make. Eventually I would have a home of my own where they could spend their visitation time with me. My ex SAID we should “work together for the sake of our kids”. That didn’t last long. Instead she chose to tell them that I left them and didn’t care about them. She would withhold information about events involving them from me and then when I didn’t show up she would tell them, “See…your father doesn’t care enough about you to be here on your special night.” I gave up trying to work with her and went at things with my kids on my own. I decided that regardless of what she was feeding them about me, I would let my example speak for itself. I can’t say it was easy all of the time, but it was best for ME not to have things involving the kids dictated through her.

Making that leap to get out of a marriage when there are kids involved make things more complex and difficult. "Staying together for the kids" can be draining and cause an incredible amount of resentment, not only towards your wife but towards your kids as well. Also, kids are not dumb and can sense when their parents are in a shitty relationship. This might sound a little callous, but you have to be a little selfish. What I mean by that is that you have to take care of YOUR well being first. If YOU are not in a good place (spiritually, emotionally, whatever) you are pretty much useless to others. Take care of yourself!! Do what is right for you!! Then you can concentrate on others.

Best of luck to you and your situation. I know it is not easy. It has been 17 years since I dumped my wife and the church. No regrets.

P.S. I have never run into a problem with others who were willing to put up with "my crap". Just sayin'.

Good gaw, at least I'm not the only divorced parent to have put up with that silliness from an ex.

"My ex SAID we should "work together for the sake of our kids". That didn’t last long. Instead she chose to tell them that I left them and didn’t care about them. She would withhold information about events involving them from me and then when I didn’t show up she would tell them, "See…your father doesn’t care enough about you to be here on your special night.""

Parental alienation syndrome is alive and well, in't it?

Now that my kids are in their twenties, we're all doing much better, I'm happy to say. (Other than perhaps my ex.)

I do know this: If you hang in there until the bitter end, then all that you will be left with is a bitter ending.

I should have divorced my former wife much much sooner, ideally before we got married. At one point soon after we were married, she threatened to exercise the nuclear option over some rather trivial circumstance. I explained to her that I did not get married so I could get divorced. What a dumb ass that I was!!!!
If I had that moment to live over again, I'd say the same thing, and then she would get handed divorce papers a couple of days later and then I would say: I always give people what they want!!!! I hope I lived up to your expectations !!!!!


OF course IF I could back up time at all, I'd just go further back and dump her nut case ass before I ever took her out.

Get your financial affairs in order, with input from a good divorce lawyer. Even if you don't end up divorcing, you need to protect yourself in the event that she files for divorce and tries to take everything that you have.

People (like me) tend to put this off, as they don't want to "go that far" unless it is absolutely essential. The trouble is that once it is absolutely essential, you could end up getting totally screwed, if you don't start to figure things out right now.

In the meanwhile, think about your marriage and family life. Is there any way that you can be happy continuing in the marriage? Can your relationship with your children give you enough to keep going until they are on their own? If you just continue to live with your family, and have a full-time relationship with your children, can you be happy while letting go of any immediate chance of living with a loving partner?

If you get a divorce, it is likely that you will be required to support your (ex)wife and your children. This can make a huge impact on your ability to make a new life for yourself. You will lose a significant part of your time with your children. Your children may well see you as the bad guy, if you initiate the proceedings. There are more things of that sort to consider. It's vastly easier to get through it all once the kids are grown.

Then you have to figure out which line of action is better for you, personally. It's horribly difficult to do, in many cases.

I realized that I was miserable about 15 years into the relationship. (I had to have it pointed out to me by others, actually. I was deep in denial.) I then spent another 15 years trying to fix the relationship. It was a complete waste of time --- life just got worse and worse. You can't fix a relationship if you are the only person trying. The only advantages were that when I left, there were no children at home; and that I could honestly tell myself that I tried everything possible.

In spite of all of that, I still think that it is worthwhile to give the other person every chance to grow and learn. Make every effort that you can. But then, if it's the only way to have a decent life for yourself, you need to be ready to let go. And get out. My life alone is immensely better than it was together. I loved in bleak despair before. I love every minute of my life, now.

I don't recommend waiting as long as I did. But, if you can be happy with your children, and if your current situation is not detrimental to your children, at least consider giving it some more time to see if somehow, your wife might grow a little.

If you are miserable, or if your kids are being torn apart by the situation, act now. See paragraph one, and go from there. (By the way, if your kids are being affected by your marital trouble, consider family counseling for yourself and them. Even if your wife is not involved. They need to know that you are doing your best for them. You will never regret doing everything possible to make that clear to them.)

I hope that you can find happiness, and that it will work out well for you. Take care of yourself and your children. Best wishes!

I'm not in the least qualified to give advice on this topic but I can relate to the experience of a friend who is divorced and now remarried. My friend has been remarried for two years now but he is retired and his wife is retired. He is her sole support because she never made much and was mostly supported by her previous husband. Theirs is very much a marriage with low expectations on both sides. Their children are all grown. She supplies him with what he needs most and he provides her with financial security and what she needs most. They are content but I don't think it's a match made in heaven.
I won't go into the details but while Sam was still married to his previous wife they lived apart for a year before they divorced. I think the separation was a good idea. In their case it showed they were much happier apart.

I think a separation from your wife might wake her up into realizing you have options and might allow you some freedom to see what it's like without your wife and children there 24/7. You might hate it or you might like it. But it would give you a chance to evaluate your options and calculate the costs/benefits of a divorce. Your wife might use it as a chance to play the martyr, which will make her the object of much attention at church. Or she might snap out of her apathy and try to make some changes. Either way, separation can be temporary and give you some bargaining time and give you both a chance to think things through.

This is just a suggestion, maybe good, maybe bad. But you might bring it up to your counselor first.