I've been asked by a tbm friend to read it. I don't know if it would be worth my time. I don't need to be preached to or hear how angels are really white salamanders or how we "just don't understand" the context of Joseph Smith marrying teenagers and other men's wives or the issues with the book of Abraham or....you get the point.

A TBM cousin of mine wanted me to read it. I'm with you, I don't want to hear anymore justification for believing.

Tell them you're reading "Crucible of Molcajetes" instead, because it's a lot more practical.

Tell them you're reading 'Crucible of Blood' because you're a Sherlock Holmes fan.

Those other crucible books sound better.

And by way of return, are they reading the CESletter?

Hmm, thought not.

funny how they never seem willing to express the same degree of open mindedness they challenge other to have.

lilburne Wrote:
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> And by way of return, are they reading the
> CESletter?
>
> Hmm, thought not.
>
> funny how they never seem willing to express the
> same degree of open mindedness they challenge
> other to have.


^I agree

How about having one's cojones pounded to a pulp in a crucible of molcajetes in order to make Haysoos happy?

Well, he giggles, which I suppose is an expression of a form of happiness.

I skimmed the book. It doesn't provide answers to anything. It's just a feel good lather for those who need a reason to stay despite the overwhelming evidence against the church.

I just couldn't get myself to actually read that fluff

Similar experience with it as Ex-cultmember. That said, I do think that avoiding the pitfalls of confirmation bias is always a good idea. I try to keep reasonably apprised of apologetics, which I find helps me to feel more authentic. The reality that most tbms don't do the same is part of what distinguishes me from them.

This might help you decide. I personally haven't listened to the podcast as it looks horribly boring.

http://mormonstories.org/fiona-and-terryl-givens-and-the-crucible-of-doubt/

The last thing anyone wants to read is something by those Givens people. Just to be sure, they know that church is not what it says it is, but laugh all the way to the bank promoting the idea that you should stick with it, simply because it is your duty.

More specifically, they believe that they have an enlightened perspective of what the church is and that most tbms, leadership included, have a misconception unintentionally perpetuated by fallibility and culture.

What I like about the Givens is their hot, hot, hot sex tape! With the MoTab in the background singing a cover of Mr. Big's "To Be With You." totally awesome and makes what's her puss, Kardashian, look cheap and tawdry.

The Crucible of Doubt is actually (IMHO) a mechanism by which those who no longer believe but who very much identify as cultural and "family affinity" mormons may hang their hat on and continue on with the official correlated program.

It provides multiple reasons for putting up with the current regime, why you shouldn't expect too much from the organization or people running it and why all of that is "okay". It seems to put the onus on the questioning member,
even though it is the organization itself that invites scrutiny of its claims to being the one true church, run by modern day revelation, prophets, seers and revelators and the only church with the authority necessary to lead the believers to exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom.

The book provides no new real information, doctrine or historical information. It's a coping mechanism sold through Deseret Books.

Published coping mechanisms are essential to a floundering company where the work force is leaving and the customers are choosing a better product.

Each and every LDS church member is a servant to a supposedly volunteer organization. Those who have been to the temple have been given oaths of obedience and sacrifice for the company, and they actually feel that they have no choice because "God will not be mocked" and this is held over their heads for the rest of their lives with reminders of temple covenants, reminders of unwavering undeviating exactness and honor to those covenants sewn into their undies which must never touch the floor.

I'd wager that the most hard-core members are acting primarily out of fear. Punishment from God, family, employers and society all work together to keep people in line and performing their voluntary duties.

The Givens are the biggest proponents of the whole "belief is just a choice so choose it" position. That's really what that book amounts to. I'm pretty certain that Fiona at least knows the entire thing is nonsense. But I don't think Terrl is all that quick of wit. He likes to write flowery phrases mostly. Pretty tediously overwritten stuff that says very little.

generationofvipers Wrote:
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> But I don't think Terry is all that quick
> of wit. He likes to write flowery phrases
> mostly. Pretty tediously overwritten stuff
> that says very little.

I could take this personally, but only because it's true.

Haha Terryl not Terry

Does anything in "The Crucible of Doubt" represent the official position of the LDS Church?

If not, why should I waste my time reading something that the Church can easily distance itself from?

There is no official position on anything in the church. That's what the profit is for.

I suppose the fact that the church has employed the Givens in at least one major ”rescue” fireside could be construed to be a quasi endorsement.

The Givens' book in a nutshell:

Prophets can be wrong . . . so just because a Mormon prophet got
something (or a lot of things) totally wrong doesn't mean the
Church isn't true.

Scriptures are the best attempt of the people writing them to
put down in writing what God revealed to them nonverbally, so if
the scriptures are false that doesn't mean the Church isn't
true. If the scriptures have been changed, that doesn't mean
the Church isn't true.

So no matter what the Church or its leaders said or did in the
past or say and do today don't quit the Church because it fills
a spiritual void that you have if you are a decent human being.

With a lot of quotes from non-Mormon spiritual searchers
judiciously chosen and mixed in with quotes from GAs to make
Mormonism look normal and a lot of quotes from poems by
William Wordsworth.

Oh, and you just gotta believe becoz, hey, you just gotta believe.

My TBM brother sent me a copy. It's well written (Mr. Givens
is an English prof) and has a lot of emotional hooks, but not
the syrupy kind that fill the ENSIGN. I can see TBMs thinking
"this is just what my EXMO acquaintance needs."