https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/10/14/jana-riess-latter-day-saint/

Jana Reese thinks they are afraid to apologize.
I think they’re so arrogant they actually believe Joseph Smith was right about blacks and natives being ‘cursed’ with dark skin, that women are only good for breed stock and that the children of gays deserve to be discriminated against because God hates gays so bad he wants us to be cruel to them and their kids!

Maybe it's both!

It makes sense to me that not a word will be said by anyone lower on the ladder than the head cheese-headed cheese head, aka the Prophet of the most high ghawd, even Jeesy-Cleesy, a nickname only his dad uses. (thanks to what's her name, Eddie Izzard.)

At least the church can afford to pay to settle lawsuits, even having to pony up the extra costs of an NDA.  No way would a plaintiff not add a penalty fee for that bit of legalese.

Apologies mean you were wrong.

Prophets aren't wrong.

Also, apologies will be used against you in lawsuits.

Mormon leaders authority is predicated upon their claim of being in direct communication with god. As you noted, apologizing means you were wrong. So then either god was wrong or the leaders were wrong. Since mormons believe that god is perfect, he couldn't be wrong. Thus, an apology would mean that the mormon leaders were wrong, but how could they be wrong if they were in direct communication with god?

To admit they were wrong would cast doubt on their claim of direct inspiration from god, and thus on their authority. They can't have that.

What - me worry?: Alfred E. Neuman

What - Me apologize?; Mormon GA

The Mormon church (does anyone else take particular pleasure in saying that knowing how much rusty nailson hates it?) is a highly narcissistic organization, and as such it generates a powerful riptide that pulls its members toward narcissism.

Unfortunately, as a direct result, that effect is also evident in exMormon circles.

But you are right. There is indeed a tendency towards narcissism among some Mormons and some ex-Mormons. One occasionally encounters, for instance, someone who claims to be non-judgmental but whose posts show a plethora of judgments against other posters--including, paradoxically, in the very thread in which the narcissist claims to be non-judgmental.

Another example might be a person who purports to have read and mastered a thinker's work but who has in fact done nothing more than listen to a podcast and hence cannot present any evidence to support his grandiose claims. In some instances said poseur might also insist that instances of substantive disagreement represent personal attacks. But that is just the fragility of the narcissistic ego expressing itself and hence an unfortunate indication that his recovery from Mormonism remains incomplete.

One can but hope for the best.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/2022 04:00AM by Lot's Wife.

Are you gaslighting? ;)

skp, you may want to do some kind of an intro thread. You have not started out on a good foot. Why not try a reset?

Thanks Susan, I appreciate the concern, but based on their behavior thus far, lotswife and elderberry would just go on that post to continue their harassment and character assasination. It's right out of the narcissist's gaslighting playbook. It's called sequestering. Since you see through their games, they're scared you'll expose them, so they try to discredit you and turn as many people as possible against you.

One of the most effective methods for dealing with the harassment is called "gray-rocking." That's what I've been doing. Basically you just stop responding. It usually gets worse before it gets better as they push every button they can reach trying to find a trigger to provoke you into re-engaging (as you see happening here... this is where it can cross the line into criminal harassment).

Unfortunately for me, gaslighting itself is extremely triggering for me because I've lost some very meaningful relationships due to tangles with narcissists. So I've been triggered right from the beginning, and the admins don't seem to understand (or care?) what's going on so I've gotten no help or support there. So I get to choose... I can either re-engage with the harassing messages to defend myself and deal with the angst from that, or I can continue gray-rocking to dodge the angst, and deal with the sequestering, since many people will fall for it hook, line and sinker.

It's a shame, seeing I came here for support I really need and to give support others might need, but of those two options, I figure I'm better off letting go of what some people will think, in favor of avoiding the triggering and angst from engaging with them.

If it continues much longer, I'll probably end up leaving the forum. Which is a shame because as I said I could use some actual support, but if I don't feel safe sharing here then what's the difference? Alternatively I've actually been considering reporting this to the police. Maybe that way I could stay. But I don't know how complicated that might be, esp since it's an anonymous board. I guess police probably have ways around that.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/2022 02:38PM by skp.

"Support" for you appears to mean unquestioning surrender. That's the attitude Mormons are expected to exhibit to their superiors.

But in the ex-Mormon world there are no superiors. People are not going to forsake their hard-earned moral and intellectual independence because it bothers you.

It might also be worth bearing in mind that Susan administered this board for at least 15 years. She *is* the moderator in ethos if no longer fully in person. You could do worse than heeding her advice.

Really?

Calling the police because someone disagreed with you?

Sounds like an idle (and absurd) threat.

I can see the response from the police now:

"What do you want from us? Someone on the internet doesn't agree with you? Disagreeing with you on an internet forum is not illegal. If it bothers you that much, maybe you should just not go there anymore. Have a nice evening."

I'm not sure the police would be so polite. They might charge him for misusing the 911 number.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/2022 09:54PM by Lot's Wife.

No. Calling the police because of online harassment.

Disagreeing is one thing. Disagreements descending into parsonal attacks is another. But following someone around after a disagreement turned personal to continue attacking them when they've asked you to leave them alone and have shown they're serious about it by not engaging with your provocations... that's a whole different scenario.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/2022 10:34PM by skp.

Do it.

But hang up before the wave of laughter sweeps over you.

They're not following you around the internet. They don't know you. This is one message board. If you don't feel that the community here suits you, move on. There is an exmormon board on Reddit that is quite active, and probably some others as well.

The others are correct that this is not a police matter.

And frankly, it's this group that has not started out on a good foot. The fact that the admins let this kind of harassment go on without doing anything at all, not even responding to the numerous times I've reported comments for harassment, completely undermines the alleged purpose of creating an environment of support for recovery. Maybe that's only meant for people who are already known in the group... It's okay to abuse and harass newcomers.

I guess the most generous reading of the situation is just that they're asleep at the wheel. Which is why I haven't called the police yet. I'm trying to give admins plenty of opportunity to handle it. But I'm almost out of patience.

It's not the responsibility of the board to conform to your current needs. Please see my post in this thread.

"Unfortunately, as a direct result, that effect is also evident in exMormon circles."

SKP-----I know you are but what am I?

ha yeah I was venting a little bit there... it's frustrating because there always seem to be a few very vocal ones in any exmo group. That makes it very hard for people like me who are in a lot of pain because of fallout from involvement with narcissists, and also because of fallout from leaving mormonism, to find community with people who understand where we're coming from, *and* where we feel safe sharing what we're going through.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/2022 03:37PM by skp.

When I was young I read an article in the "Improvement Era" (which puts my birthdate sometime between 1897 and 1970 just for reference) and it was about adding cows to the herd--as a metaphor, of course, everything coming back to Mormonism. The gist of the article was that the new cows that stay on the periphery for a while and gradually worked their way in did very well. The one who charged right in Miley Cyrus Wrecking Ball style were often rejected and even kicked.

I was raised on a farm and milked cows and believe me cows need as much savvy navigating a herd as we humans do.

As a kid I had a giraffe drawing featured in the Children's Friend but that's another story. Haven't learned as much from Giraffes though they do seem to know a very elegant way to stick their neck in. Well unless two males are having a territorial battle. That is something to see.

Interesting.

Some other fun facts about giraffes... they're well-known for being the world's tallest mammal, but they can also go days without water, and have the largest heart of any land animal <3

Did not know those facts about giraffes. Interesting.

I suppose observing interactions for a while before participating in a group like this could possibly allow you to see who you might want to minimize interaction with.

I assume that's what you're suggesting.

On the other hand, that doesn't mean those people won't bring the drama to you.

Listen, Skippy.

You engaged me first, when you contested my description of the dollar exchange rate. I replied with data and with no rancor. The next time we interacted was when I applauded your statement in EB's thread. Thereafter some differences emerged and you inveighed against me for "not knowing what [I'm] talking about" when in fact it was you who were lying about having read Rosenberg. Then you told me to go away, "hun," as if I am supposed to recognize some mental superiority by dint of that modest bulge in your trousers. For you to turn around now and play the victim is pathetic.

The same basic pattern occurred with EB, who is one of the nicest and most respected members of our community. You told him he was moronic and then told him to leave his own thread." And then you scampered over here and hijacked a thread on LDS leaders to whine passive aggressively, itself a Mormon approahc; complain that people are being mean to you; and, admins, please make it stop.

Grow up, Skippy. It is you who created the drama by picking those fights, not EB or I. Recovery from a cult means a willingness to listen to others, acknowledge when you are wrong, and accept that disagreement is a perfectly acceptable form of human interaction. So appeal to your heart's content to the moderators, call the police, even pray to Zeus that thunderbolts strike us down.

Then go into your closet, close the door, and enjoy a conversation with someone who unfailingly agrees with you.

No, that is not what I was suggesting at all. You have completely misunderstood me if that was your take away. I will try again,

When you enter a new community, it is wise to take your time and get the lay of the land to understand the dynamics. NOT to figure out who is going to "attack" you. People here disagree often. Disagreeing is NOT ATTACKING. Contention is not of the debil. If you want to stump for a specific fact or philosophy be sure of your facts, have your ducks in a row AND if you have a sacred cow this is not the place to try to pasture it. It is not personal, don't make it personal.

Example - That is a false conclusion/analogy/fact and this is why I think so. Verses - YOU are a dumbass who can't reason your way out of a wet paper bag.

You seem to have a lot of anger and can be confrontational. What you give out, may come back to you. " I have no idea what "going all Fritz the Cat" is supposed to mean, but I assure you, if I want to go all Fritz the Cat, I will go all Fritz the Cat." Take 30 seconds, hit google and find out what the hell Fitz the Cat means.

Then we come to this thread by EB. Weird FEELINGS today. It is about his FEELINGS. You immediately jump in and invalidate those feelings. YOU are confrontational to HIM. Not the other way around. You ask him for more data, he gives it to you and your come back is "Oy... Let's please leave the smart alecky quips at the door." *I thought this was a very off the wall comment and uncalled for. You then attempt to "school" him on how you perceive the issue. Your tone was, at the least, condescending. EB again makes his point using different source material. You call him an asshole. THAT is an attack. Count in the smart alecky and that makes two so far. And you keep it up through the deleted portion of the thread. You even egg him on "Take another swing?"

Then you get into it with LW.

So I take it from your repetitious and rather extreme moralistic judging of me as "absurd... ridiculous... silly... indefensible... immoral... unsustainable... [and] nihilistic" She did not say YOU. She said your argument. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. She even says "If you go back and read what I wrote more carefully, you may discover that what I was judging was not you but your statements. I stand by everything I said." You then decide to try to personally insult her by accusing her of mormon think. Sigh. And follow it up with a bit of condescending misogyny. That doesn't play well here. I doubt it would play well in any circumstance where you have exmormons and/or women. You then further attempt to school her and that doesn't work very well does it?

"If anyone else has read all of this (and I doubt anyone other than EB has) and wants to know the truth about whether any of your childish punches land, all they have to do is listen to that podcast series." Do you realize this implies that you have "The Truth" and any other opinions or viewpoints are invalid?

The rest is more of the same but I just don't have the time to continue. YOU could have just not replied at any time. Telling someone else where they were allowed to post and accusing them of following you around on their own thread, sigh, just doesn't work like that. If you don't want to engage, DON'T. Control yourself, don't attempt to control others. Claiming to be a victim doesn't make you one. Opinion you don't like is not harassment. And I can tell you, as a FACT that nothing here rises to the level of criminal harassment.

No one knows who you are.
No one knows where you live or work.
No one has threatened you in any way, shape or form.

I have spent over 23(?) years here. Dealt with lawyers and cops. This is what rises to that level:

Bitsy I know you live at XYZ, I know you work at GCP. I know what you look like because of your pictures at LME. I know where there is a gun store 3 miles from your house. There is a 3pm flight from my city to yours.

So for heaven sakes stop going on about that.

I suggested you take a mulligan, cool your jets and get a better lay of the land. In general, people here are understanding and will allow that kind of grace. I have seen people with a LOT more anger and have stepped in it much deeper. Other people here have issues too. That is why this place was needed November 1995. It was the first and ONLY place for exmormons, on or off line that wasn't run by another religion (and those were few and far between). Take a little time to learn about this place. Here is a little note from Eric who has now retired for the most part. https://www.exmormon.org/20th-Year-of-Recovery-from-Mormonism-exmormon-org.pdf I think you would find the Biography Board of interest. https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/list.php?3

Now I REALLY need to go study my Ukrainian! Слава Україні

I didn't misunderstand you. That was a reply to D&D's comment, not yours. Unless D&D is also you.

Either way, thank you for your opinion. I'm not going to go through and defend myself against all of that accusation and blame, mostly because it seems like you've already made up your mind that everything I did was wrong and they're completely innocent, and I don't feel like writing another novel that doesn't change anything. I will say there are double standards, false assumptions, and lack of acknowledgement of what I've already said to you, strewn throughout your diatribe.

What you apparently want to overlook is when someone has made it clear, as I have, that they do not want to continue a fight, it is absolutely 100% NOT OKAY to continue the fight by following them around jumping into conversations they have with other people to continue attacking them and trying to provoke them. It is harassment.

And although I do not claim any kind of expertise in the law (and you probably shouldn't either), I did look up the laws about online harassment, and it seems pretty clear to me that this rises that level. At this point, I guess we'll see what the police say.

For the record, *I* did stop responding, immediately after I made it clear that I did not want to continue. I pointed that out to you before. *They* have continued attacking and provoking since then, but I have not responded to their posts a single time despite their distortions and attacks.

Also for the record, the phrase, "Sorry, hun," is not misogynistic. Condescending? Sure. When someone is condescending toward me, I do have a tendency to return fire. But being condescending is not misogyny just because the person on the other end of it is a woman. That's a very ugly accusation to make, in the future you might want to check yourself before you make it.

Also, from your comments it seems like you're probably an admin. If you want to engage in any CYA, now is probably the time. I have no idea if your allowance/support of her behavior will have any blowback or not.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2022 02:27PM by skp.

I tried. Again, you seem to be looking for confrontation. This place may not be a good fit for you.

No, I am not looking for confrontation. I like to support people and to be supported. But when you confront me with false accusations and blame, you can't turn around and call me out for defending myself. You seem to have a victim-shaming problem.

Again, this place may not be a good fit for you.

Did you say that to my harasser?

... Just seems like something you say to the person who has been antagonizing, rather than to the person who is being antagonized.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2022 10:57AM by skp.

Thank you Susan. I couldn't figure out what happened on my thread. This makes sense.

skp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... strewn throughout your diatribe.

I missed whatever it was that happened between you and other posters but just want to say that Sus' post is not a diatribe.

> At this point, I guess we'll see what the
> police say.

I'd guess they'd say we've got real crimes to solve and your complaint doesn't rise to that level, not even close.

No Admin decisions on this board will change because a poster threatens to involve police in what amounts to an online squabble between strangers.


> Also, from your comments it seems like you're
> probably an admin. If you want to engage in any
> CYA, now is probably the time. I have no idea if
> your allowance/support of her behavior will have
> any blowback or not.

It's unfortunate that you are obviously not finding an easy start to your RfM experience. It's not helping that you are challenging an Admin (now semi- or nearly totally retired) especially as she has responded to you in a patient and kind way, at length, obviously trying to help you. For the record, Sus' reply to you is the longest post I've ever seen her write, and the most patient. Yet you spout challenges such as "CYA" which just keeps things spiralling downwards for you as re this board. Too, re "blowback" I take that as a thinly veiled reference to involving police in whatever wrong you think has been committed against you.

Threats won't change anything re you and this board. Nobody will knuckle under to your demands about how they should behave or respond.

Perhaps you could write another post or start a thread and just focus on what you want to say about your experiences with Mormonism and leave out the parts where you challenge other posters and badmouth this board.

I haven't read any of your other posts, don't know when you started interacting here, but if you write more, that are on topic for this board, I will read them. If you need help or support you may find it here but not so far in the way it seems you've been interacting, judging by your comments on this thread. One very positive aspect of posters here is that they are willing to try and understand people and also to give them another chance.

Why not just start over, post something about yourself or your questions, and leave out criticism of the board, Admin or other posters. You may be surprised at how helpful and supportive RfMers can be.

I've witnessed a lot of support here. That's why I'd like to stay. That's the kind of dynamic I most enjoy participating in. I've tried to give support a few times. Even had it well received. Haven't really been on the receiving end yet, probably partly because all of this mess has probably made me into something of a pariah, and partly because I don't feel safe sharing here since all of this mess started. Also a little because people are sometimes in pain themselves and don't really see others' pain (certainly understandable).

I'm not holding anything against Susan, but it is clear in her post, as it is clear in yours, that I am being blamed for everything, and there is no evidence in either of your posts to suggest that you are holding my harasser responsible for her actions. Yes, I'm going to push back on that, but I also understand how easy it is to be taken in by a narcissist's smear campaign, especially when no defensive is mounted because the target of that campaign is having to gray-rock to protect their sanity. I was totally aware when I made the decision to gray-rock that that would create an opening for my harasser to paint my character as she wished, and as a result many people would view me through that prism.

Hopefully I'll be able to change that later. If I try to start over right now, my harasser would only hijack that conversation to smear me some more.

Telling Susan I was going to report this to police was not a threat nor an attempt at coercion. It was fair warning. I don't intend to seek any kind of injunction with admins or the board, but I don't know for certain that I'll get to make that decision if the police, in looking into the harassment, find there was wrongdoing by admins. I don't know how that works.

I understand that your post was well-intended. I also recognize that Susan's was well-intended. But I do not accept responsibility for being harassed. And I'd like you to see that my posts are also well-intended, and I'd like you to understand that there is more to this than meets the eye, but I'm not going to share it here and now because I don't feel safe.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2022 05:58PM by skp.

Still whining?

At least you've pulled back the veil and shown that you don't give a damn about Rosenberg and his non-judgmentalism. Ultimately everything is subsumed in your own victimhood.

It's pathetic.

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2432990,2432990#msg-2432990

He shows up sure that his opinion is the only correct one, and can't understand why everyone does not immediately recognize that, then acts all butthurt that his genius wasn't recognized by all.

Particularly see his last post at 10:41 pm.
https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2432990,2433132#msg-2433132

Good catch. I think you are right.

skp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't feel safe sharing here
> since all of this mess started.

> I'm not going to share it here and now because I don't
> feel safe.

Twice in one post you state that you don't feel safe at RfM. This is not a slam against you, at all, but perhaps you should consider taking time away and maybe even looking for a discussion board where you would feel more comfortable. Feeling unsafe is not a good way to try and recover from - anything.


> don't know for certain that I'll get to make that
> decision if the police, in looking into the
> harassment, find there was wrongdoing by admins. I
> don't know how that works.

I am 100% certain that the police will not devote many, if any, resources to any complaint you make against the mods of a free internet discussion board on which you voluntarily post. While you seem to perceive something malignant here against you there is nothing at all that would suggest police need to be involved, or would be even if you approached them. Please save them time and yourself anxiety by just dispensing with the impulse to make a report to them.


I'm not holding anything against Susan, but it is
> clear in her post, as it is clear in yours, that I
> am being blamed for everything, and there is no
> evidence in either of your posts to suggest that
> you are holding my harasser responsible for her
> actions.

I'm sorry you read my post that way. It wasn't meant as any kind of commentary on whatever "everything" is, as I haven't followed whatever it was that led up to where we're at now. I don't see anywhere that I "blamed" you "for everything", which I likely wouldn't do anyway but especially because as I said I haven't even read whatever it is that went before this.

As for "holding my harasser responsible" who am I to do that? I have no power or position here or responsibility or mandate to hold anyone to account. Again, I can't do so as I haven't seen all of what has gone before but also who is the "harasser"? Don't even answer that. I don't want to get in the middle of anything. But using such words to describe a fellow poster is likely not going to help resolve disputes.

I was just trying to say to you that it's possible for you to start over, just ignore this, and try to steer clear of wholesale criticism of RfM or of other posters, especially by name. One of the main rules for posting is to avoid arguing and other negative interactions. That is the best way to contribute to meaningful discussion and hopefully get something positive back from posting here.

If you are looking for info and a place to discuss your experience with Mormonism and especially if you need to feel understood and safe maybe it would help if you avoided certain topics and discussions at least until you get to know us a little bit, and we you. It's easy to misunderstand someone's comments so it's good to give people the benefit of the doubt.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2022 06:34PM by Nightingale.

Here you go, NG.

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2448385

Thanks, el-Dub.

Just catching up, after my wild weekend.

NG had a "wild weekend"!?! I am going to need details :)

PS, I meant to check out the bio board before, but pretty much totally forgot about it. Thanks for the suggestion! I'm not sure where you picked up on it, but you're right.. it does seem like something I'd enjoy.

Arrogance can only be maintained on the back of ignorance.
Have to willful-ignore much reality to maintain a make-believe world.

Interesting article. I think pointing out Holland's apology was excellent. I had forgot it happened them doing it is so rare.

Lol.

Love this.

"It would have been helpful if the church practiced more transparency all down the line: transparency about how General Conference talks are written and whether assistants are involved, and also transparency about how the public affairs department gives official responses to media inquiries.

And it would have been even more helpful if Elder Bednar had issued an actual apology."

And the punchline?

Outside of upholding the myths of golden plates, angelic visitations, and bogus restorations the corp could be whatever it wanted to be but it acts the shady way and hurts people.

It is almost as if Joseph Smith set up a con and people have been working it as carnies with no owner ever since. The carnival isn't giving your money back or apologizing and neither is the revival healers in their big tents scams neither.

They do not fear. In their minds there is nothing to apologize for. Why would you apologize for what God instructed you to do? Don't forget they believe their own publicity.

Not apologizing ever for anything is a strategy that has worked well for many tyrants from the beginning of history. Certain people do this innately. They know apologizing is a sign of weakness no matter how many humans claim it to be noble. Denying in the face of concrete proof works well for many.

People love a "Taker". Admire them. Want to ride on their coat tails. Hitch their wagon to a "star". It's those people who I find more offensive than the bulldozers of the world.

Mormon bosses must maintain the illusion of infallibility. They will never admit that they are wrong.

Afraid, it is.

If they apologize - it is an admission they did or got something wrong.

Since Jesus leads and The Holy Ghost inspires and reveals - it means Jesus or the spook screwed up - OR - they did not hear/interpret it right.

If that happens Jesus or they are wrong and "inspiration" isn't what it is said to be.

They are afraid..., very afraid that it is a sham and apologizing will show they are not inspired and it is not real.

Apologizing while maintaining they are inspired raises doubts about their honesty - we know they are liars but they can't admit it without showing it is a scam.

I have learned they are very similar to my ex-parents in the fact that they have never apologized for anything they have done to anybody in their entire lives. Once i started studying psychopaths and narcissists it all started to make sense and become clear though. Psychopaths and narcissists have never apologized for anything they have done in life and if they have it is totally a fake and forced apology.

I would like an apology from my parent; there is only one left now.

I've apologized and would again to my own children.

Funny how even an insincere sorry from my mother would make a world of difference in my life.

Not going to happen. Self righteous narcissism is crazy hard to deal with.

Saying you are the only true church on earth is pretty arrogant.

One of the things that convinced me that the Mormon CULT was evil beyond repair was that a good friend of mine, who was African American, married to a Mormon, convert to the abusive CULT, went to discuss problems with racism he’d experienced in the abusive CULT, Steak President told him,”If you are suspecting an apology, you will never get one. The discrimination was based upon divine inspiration. There’s no apologizing for God.”

That pissed him off and it pissed me off when he told me.

IOW, yeah, The God we worship is white supremacist, it’s not our fault He’s racist.

When you get right down to it, they’re fine with the racism, it’s divine inspiration.

How do you apologize for blatant racism when it’s been considered ‘divine revelation’ and it still is.

"Okay, you can use the White Man's drinking fountain, sit at the White Man's lunch counter, and party with the White Man's daughters, but you're still not White!

"The question arises: When Blacks get their patriarchal blessings, into which tribe are they adopted?  It better not be Manasseh! That's for the other losers!"

Elder I. Breakwind Nobley, Mormon Amateur Explanationist

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The discrimination was based upon divine
> inspiration. There’s no apologizing for God.”

> IOW, yeah, The God we worship is white
> supremacist, it’s not our fault He’s racist.

What the absolute hell kind of beliefs does it take to say this to someone?

How does that comment not clang back into the SP's earholes and deafen him?

It's one thing to deny that your teachings are racist. Quite another to admit that they are but that it's okay with God.

And to then blame God for the racism of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. I suppose there’s no point in apologizing when it’s written in black and white for the whole world to read!
I know MORmONs who have tried to claim ‘black skin’ doesn’t really mean ‘black skin’ it’s just a metaphor for being separated from God’s love.

I just LOL’d!


BOOK of MORMON

1 Nephi 11:13 (Mary): “She was exceedingly fair and white.”

1 Nephi 12:23 (prophecy of the Lamanites): “Became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.”

1 Nephi 13:15 (Gentiles): “They were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people [Nephites] before they were slain.”

2 Nephi 5:21: “A sore cursing … as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.”

2 Nephi 30:6 (prophecy to the Lamanites if they repented): “Scales of darkness shall begin to fall … they shall be a white and delightsome people” (“white and delightsome” was changed to “pure and delightsome” in 1981).

Jacob 3:5 (Lamanites cursed): “Whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins.”

Jacob 3:8-9: “Their skins will be whiter than yours … revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins.”

Alma 3:6: “And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion.”

Alma 3:9: “Whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed.”

Alma 3:14 (Lamanites cursed): “Set a mark on them that they and their seed may be separated from thee and thy seed.”

Alma 23:18: “[Lamanites] did open a correspondence with them [Nephites] and the curse of God did no more follow them.”

3 Nephi 2:14-16: “Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites; And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites and … became exceedingly fair.”

3 Nephi 19:25, 30 (Disciples): “They were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness … nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof … and behold they were white, even as Jesus.”

Mormon 5:15 (prophecy about the Lamanites): “For this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us.”

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mormon 5:15 (prophecy about the Lamanites): “For
> this people shall be scattered, and shall become a
> dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the
> description of that which ever hath been amongst
> us.”

I must admit, as the Major Clueless One formerly known as Convert Sap # ***Million, I didst read that verse and didst view the descriptors as metaphor.

When I read, ”the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.” I just said to myself, ”there’s no two ways around it, that’s f’ing racist!!! I can’t raise my kids to believe this racist b.s!!!”

And I knew at that moment I had to find a way out of that abusive cruel CULT.

I know, colour me clueless. I should have figured that out immediately but whoosh...

I see more and more and more (thankyousomuch RfM!) the reason why missionaries are told to dunk people asap before answering a single question.

That approach is flawed though because the end result is a very poor convert retention rate. Isn't it better to have fewer baptisms than to bleed out members at the other end?

Most unfortunately, for members, missionaries and prospective converts alike, church leaders use baptism as a measure of worthiness for both member and potential convert as well as for missionaries whose worth is largely measured in numbers of baptisms they can convince and cajole their marks to undergo. When I got baptized the entire mission appeared to be there, throngs of missionaries, as if I were some rare specimen they may never see again. In many cases, for them, that proved to be true. Our area must be amongst the topmost for numbers of zeroes on every mishie's prospective convert sheet.

I still greatly lament even the thought of the colossal waste of time it all is when with such numbers of strong, healthy young missionaries just think of the very real good they could accomplish if (1) they were sent to places where people needed concrete help with actual life stuff, like building homes or hauling water or clearing spaces or any one of 100K other useful activities and (2) they ended up back at home with a sense of achievement at actually having helped people as well as feeling that they had spent their time wisely.

Time - one of life's most precious commodities.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2022 08:14PM by Nightingale.