Since Science is dumb and there's NO we could have come about by chance my highly educated and qualified teacher showed us how the Big Bang and evolution are dumb by taking a puzzle of our solar system and throwing it on the ground. Did all the pieces come land perfectly? Nope. Therefore Science is wrong and Mormonism is true beyond shadow of a doubt.

Sounds to me like your science teacher would have fit in really well in the Middle Ages, where the reasoning back then was very much the same.

oops

This new learning amazes me, sir Bedevere.

Yes, but bring in a million monkeys, and in a million years they'll figure out how to put it together.

And they will all praise Joseph Smith.

Chicken N. Backpacks Wrote:
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> Yes, but bring in a million monkeys, and in a
> million years they'll figure out how to put it
> together.

In a million years (give or take a few), that million monkeys will have either become "us"...or will have become some species recognizably very similar to us (gorillas, chimpanzees and other primates (etc.)...or maybe in the future the baton will be, or will have been, passed to dolphins and other recognizably very intelligent sea creatures who need to develop (or uncover) some kind of opposable thumb.

We (homo sapiens) are the "template" that so far has been most intelligent and technologically-oriented, but the species we are now was always only one of the evolutionary possibilities available.

For anyone who has at least some small smidgen of dawning comprehension of the presently-unknown factors in the universe and the multiverse, "we" are undoubtedly nowhere near where the potentials of life might actually "be."

Tell your seminary teacher that if each of the pieces were moving, and randomly bumping into each other, at some point the puzzle would all come together -- and nothing magical would be required.

Then tell him/her that arguments from personal ignorance and incredulity are fallacious, and rather silly.

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
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> Tell your seminary teacher that if each of the
> pieces were moving, and randomly bumping into each
> other, at some point the puzzle would all come
> together -- and nothing magical would be
> required.

True.

Science perfectly describes why the puzzle pieces landed where they did and why. The arrangement of the galaxies, stars and planets followed a very organized pattern consistent with the same theories of science that can describe the motion of the thrown puzzle pieces.

Seminary teachers these days.

John S Wrote:
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> Science perfectly describes why the puzzle pieces
> landed where they did and why. The arrangement of
> the galaxies, stars and planets followed a very
> organized pattern consistent with the same
> theories of science that can describe the motion
> of the thrown puzzle pieces.

Also true.

John S Wrote:
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> Science perfectly describes why the puzzle pieces
> landed where they did and why. The arrangement of
> the galaxies, stars and planets followed a very
> organized pattern consistent with the same
> theories of science that can describe the motion
> of the thrown puzzle pieces.

Indeed. So the simplest comeback to the teacher:

"Yeah, no. Because gravity." :)

Exactly. That's how I demonstrate the concept of gravity to young children. I drop something so that it falls to the ground.

And that teacher actually gets a paycheck?

She needs to look into another profession.... like oh say, garbage collector.

No. She's not qualified to do that. Our garbage collectors make $50,000 a year, starting wages (can earn up to 75,000), with just a high school diploma and CDL drivers license. Though we prefer to hire veterans or people with an associate degree for admin jobs, which can pay more, and these days most of those candidates take jobs elsewhere that aren't so physical, and where the hours and cachet of the job title appeals more to them.

The teams drive brand new, hi-tech trucks worth $250,000. They work 5 or 6 days a week, in all weather, covering 25 miles of route in total, and pick up from almost 5,000 homes. They work 8 hours a day, average, and they're the sole driver in their truck. Truck does must of the work these days, and most drivers work a whole day without ever getting out of the truck.

It's the recycling teams who I feel sorry for.

If that seminary teacher is this stupid, she's not fit to do garbage collection here and I don't want her on the waste management team, where I live.

Tell your teacher to stick to being a seminary teacher. That you don't think he/she has studied enough to teach science yet.

He must be riffing on Russell M. Nelson's print shop analogy about evolution etc... Of course, both analogies are loaded with poor assumptions about what science is, and the nature of the universe. Just the small stuff.

The seminary teacher assumes that there is some final destined product the universe was supposed to become.

It reminds me of Elder Price in the BOM musical. "...until they made me..."

"my highly educated and qualified teacher showed us how the Big Bang and evolution are dumb by taking a puzzle of our solar system and throwing it on the ground."

Give your seminary teacher this link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2xyrel-2vI

Invite him to watch the *entire* program before formulating an opinion about it.

randyj Wrote:
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>
> Give your seminary teacher this link:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2xyrel-2vI
>
> Invite him to watch the *entire* program before
> formulating an opinion about it.

Awesome documentary!

However the pieces land, that's what is.
Whatever survives, is what exists.

My deep thought for the day. he he!

seekyr Wrote:
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> However the pieces land, that's what is.
> Whatever survives, is what exists.
>
> My deep thought for the day. he he!

Now I'm going to be thinking about this all day.

Well I'm convinced. All those years I spent studying physics crushed by a single analogy.

whiteandelightsome Wrote:
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> ...taking a puzzle of our solar system and throwing
> it on the ground.

Wow, the Solar System is Flat too? Not held together by gravity? and inertia? in that case, the church must be true. dangit.

Your ST is in essence demanding an explanation for the complexity of natural systems. It is a bit odd that he would use the solar system, since there are far more complex natural systems; the most complex being the human brain. But there *is* a proper question underlying his ridiculous antics.

The legitimate question is "How can complex systems, and in particular biological complexity (including the human brain), be explained absent a creator God?" How and why do all of the complex parts of such systems come together into marvelous functional systems, for example, a human being.

It is actually a good question, because as Richard Dawkins admits, biological complexity does "appear" to be designed. Such appearance is due to the massively functional properties of living organisms. In response, it must first be noted that such complexity does NOT arise from purely random processes. Thus, your ST's dramatic display of throwing parts on the floor and claiming that their random order somehow diffuses or undermines natural complex systems is just silly. No biologists believe that complex biological systems arise out of purely random processes. The odds are just too great against it. It reminds me of the great scientist, Fred Hoyle (a believer, who coined the term "big bang" by the way) who argued (falsely) that evolution is equivalent to a tornado passing through a junk yard and out of purely random processes creating a jet airplane. Obviously, that cannot happen by any random processes occurring anywhere near the actual age of the universe, if at all. But, if biological systems are not the result of random processes, then how do they arise?

The answer is by the operation of natural laws. The natural laws of biology encompass Darwinian natural selection, along with other evolutionary mechanisms, all of which operate through the complex laws of chemistry and physics. In short, one can explain in principle all natural complexity by the operation of natural laws, without a need for a creator God.

Notwithstanding, what about the origin of the natural laws themselves? This is where science breaks down, because here randomness does enter into the picture. The question becomes, why should the big bang, which presumably produced the natural laws, happen at all. Moreover why should it produce natural laws that are particularly "fine-tuned" to allow for the emergence of complex systems, including life? Theologians answer this question by invoking a creator God.

Materialist scientists make essentially two arguments against this position: (1) That such a position does not explain the existence of God, who is himself a complex being; and (2) That the randomness can be explained by invoking a multiverse, i.e. massively multiple universes (perhaps infinite) that in their totality encompass all viable emergent combinations of natural laws, and all possible universes that would result from those laws. Since we are here, and complexity exists in our world, it must be the case that we just happen to live in one universe out of many that encompasses the random natural laws necessary to allow for the emergence of life. This is called the anthropic principle.

Finally, do not let the rhetorical and nonsensical statements of your ST detract you from the real issues. There are scientists who reject multiverse theories and believe that some sort of creative mind is necessary to explain the emergence of the natural laws that underlie and are necessary for complex systems to emerge in our universe. However, the majority of scientists who have thought about these issues believe that at rock bottom is not God, but only some sort of "theory of everything" that somehow explains the fundamental emergence of both matter, mind, life, and complex systems generally. Of course, there is always the question, "Given such a theory, where did it come from? Why that theory, and not some other theory? The answer: That is just the way it is! Such an answer, although unsatisfying, is arguably better that invoking a "God," whose existence and complexity is left unexplained. How can we answer the question of complexity, by invoking more complexity?

If you are interested in a reasonably accessible discussion of these issues, I recommend the works of physicist Paul Davies, especially, "Cosmic Jackpot: Why Our Universe Is Just Right For Life." Davies is a highly respected physicist and an atheist.

If you can't win them with your wisdom, baffle them with your bullshit.

"If you can't win them with your wisdom, baffle them with your bullshit."

Hedning, if you don't agree with Henry's response, what is your explanation for the origin of life? "God did it?"

Henry Bemis Wrote:
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> The legitimate question is "How can complex
> systems, and in particular biological complexity
> (including the human brain), be explained absent a
> creator God?"

I disagree. That's not a legitimate question, since it contains an assumption of a "creator god." And formed that way, it implies "if you can't explain this complexity, then it must be from a creator god." Which isn't the case at all.

The legitimate question is, "How did these observed complex systems come to exist?" That one contains no assumptions.

Loved the rest of your post, Henry. Just not that part :)

I can't help but wonder what the seminary teacher could do with a rock and a hat.

Just because the pieces didn't come together, doesn't mean they are in the wrong place. The puzzle is all the same makeup and our universe is not. Each star / planet, property is of a different make up and this causes a different reaction within its on self. Over time this causes other stars to react in different ways.

Like the parts in an engine. All different, but working together they create a life, power, force.

Our universe has come together like this and life was born.

That would have been so funny, and I would have yelled out something like "IN YOUR FACE, MORmON!" and walked out of there forever.

My seminary teacher talked about the planet Kolob, and I put my hand up and told him it didn't exist, and he did not like being challenged and spewed out some "you must have faith that it exists" bullshit and I walked out. End of my two week seminary experience.

RB