Several of my very TBM relatives have been hit hard by the recession. Jobs, businesses and houses lost. I suppose they see it as a trial from the Lord, or as chastisement for their lack of sufficient perfection. But I wonder if some of them are figuring out there's no connection between their righteousness and economic realities. How long can prayers for deliverance go unanswered before doubts creep in? How long before they question the wisdom of their leaders' financial counsel? Or do they imagine themselves as a modern Job? Just hang in there and God will reward us ten fold, right?.

Meanwhile, not to brag, but an infidel like me has been able to dodge financial trouble -- so far. And it had nothing to do with keeping commandments or praying or any of that. When there's trouble in my life, I know the solutions are to be found in the realm of reality, not in the fickle, unresponsive, murky realm of the supernatural. That simplifies things greatly. No god stuff mucking up the process.

at a YM/YW conference I attended once the Stake President got up and held up a Book of Mormon and promised the kids that if they lived by the principles of that book they would prosper in the land. I was furious. What does that tell kids? That the rich are more righteous than the poor. That if their parents are having financial struggles, they are not living the gospel principles. That kids don't have to work hard, budget and save for a rainy day...they just have to try to be good people and things will magically work out for them. I hope that people will come to their senses and realize economic realities are not solved by magical thinking but I worry that it will just add a burden of guilt instead. Like "What am I doing wrong - where am I lacking that God isn't willing to bless me and my family?"

Our family has done well, and good things have happened to us SINCE we have left the church. Our house has appreciated despite the crash, and our investment portfolio is up despite the poor economy. We have had no major health problems. My poor extended family has had all sorts of problems financial and health despite their faithfulness. I guess they think that I will get it in the end and god is just testing them now because they are more righteous. I really don’t know how they can see us do so well despite being apostates and not have some cog dis.

Apostasy's been good for us also. Right off the bat we got an extra day off a week and a 10% raise =) Then we made a smooth transition into a great job. Our web based business has tripled since we left and shock upon all shock, I still get great ideas and 'inspiration' that flood regularly into my head even though I don't follow the 'word of wisdom'. That's not supposed to happen. (cog dis)

In my 36yrs as TBM, I learned that it was the Devil that made sinners feel happy outside the church and that they really weren't happy. Apparently this Devil dude is so powerful that he can make our lives better than when living righteously, make our kids happy to be with us, make our stress levels drop back down into the healthy levels, give us inspiring thoughts that help our family and increase our income. WOW! where's my motivation to return to the church?

Of course the best thing to be realized since apostatizing, is that we have brains and intellect, and outside of the church we can actually use them. And by using them, we discovered that the church is a scam who uses 'the devil' as a way to scare people into staying religious. Anyone ever seen The Village by M. Night Shyamalan? If you haven't, do it.

Clear back in 1957 I attended a lecture at the U of U institute presented by a BYU economics prof (whose name I have forgotten). The gist of his lecture was that there was a disconnect between religious and economic activities. His main illustration was an acquaintance who had delivered a sincere and moving testimony on how he had prospered by keeping his business closed on Sunday. Then the prof found out the guy had declared bankruptcy within a couple of months. According to the prof, the takeaway was that you had better make economic decisions on economic criteria. I was amazed that he'd say that.

Don't-know-how-long-he-remained-a-BYU-prof-ly yrs,

S

I like that, Stray Mutt, no "god stuff mucking up the process". New term, "god muck".

News Flash: Nation's top neurosurgeon operates on Thomson S. Monson, President of the CoJCoLDS, and shortly into the procedure resects a 3 inch tumor of god muck.

...the Lord to rain punishment upon me.

She complains no matter how much we make.
She's never had to work outside the home since our kids were born.
She's quick to say we never have enough money, but she pays tithing dutifully.
I'm getting sick of the hemorrhage.
We have debts to pay, we need to save, we're always running out of money at the end of the month, yet she pays 10% of our GROSS to the church!
That's actually more like 20% of our discretionary income, money that could be invested, used to pay debt...
...I tolerate this because she's in defensive mode about me losing faith.
She marshals us all for FHE and we watch conference talks, and she gets annoyed that we're not into it. We don't have to say anything, just looking at it without getting into the spirit of it annoys her and it usually ends in pouting.
The gospel depends of manipulation, and that's what religion is all about, telling others what God expects of them.

If your DW really feels a need to tithe, maybe a compromise is that she tithes only on her half of your NET income. My opinion is, only those with income are obligated to tithe. DW doesn't have income, so she doesn't tithe. The one with the name on the paycheck is the one that has income. At the end of the day, sure the money goes into the family pot, but the one who earns it should decide whether or not to tithe.

Another thing,I never paid on gross, even when I was TBM. My rationale was, DC 119 uses the word 10% of YOUR INTEREST. I figured 15%-25% of my paycheck was THE GOVERNMENT'S INTEREST, so therefore, what was left was MY INTEREST.

Jesus said, The sun shines on the good and the evil. He maketh his rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

My BIC wife never worked but was considered full tithe payer as she had no income. I did not pay titheing

If you flat out refuse to pay tithing then she is exempt from paying. She would only pay on what she earns. This is what her Bishop would tell her.

The thing that caused the most arguments in my first marriage was the non-payment of tithing.

I was fresh into my new job after graduating college and the pay was not that great. My new wife and I barely made it every month and it was because I would not pay tithing. My budget showed that if 10% went away, the choice before us was eat or have a place to live with utilities. I chose to eat and have a place to live with electricity and running water.

When my “white but not delightsome” first wife found out that I never paid, she was furious and abusive to me and railed on me to pay it. I told her and showed her the budget and told her that the math does not lie and also told her to choose eating or having shelter. This made her even madder and insisted that I pay tithing and stop paying the mortgage because we would be blessed to be able to pay our bills. However, she would never agree to go without food or without her credit card shopping for her frivolous things.

So I did. I paid the tithing and not the mortgage and waited for God to invoke some new math on my budget that somehow the numbers would all work out. One month went by, then 2, then 3, and my budget’s math remained the same. No sack of money fell from heaven and no hidden cash bonanza materialized. Soon I began to receive notices from my mortgage company saying my house will go into foreclosure if I don’t payup.

I confronted her with these facts and I said that tithing would no longer be a budgeted item. I also told her that her frivolous credit card spending is also ending so we can make up the delinquent mortgage payments. She blew up at that and then said that I should not pay the credit card back and use that money for tithing. I then asked her what’s the difference between shoplifting and not paying back her charged items? I got no response and she stormed off.

We finally divorced and my non-payment of tithing was one of the main issues that ended that relationship.

So in the end, God did not bless me with creative math, a sack of cash, or even a memory of a forgotten or misplaced bonanza of treasure. The windows of heaven had indeed been bricked over.

I have been the ones to handly paying all the bills in the 38 years we have been married. I stopped paying tithing 14 months ago when I stopped going to church. Dh knew that and could have paid. He has his own business account and he makes all the money. I am just a lowely stay ay homer.So it became HIS choice. Funny thing-he hasn't paid a single penny since. And even funnier,his business is thriving! He is a painting contractor and he has at least 5 jobs in the wings at all times. I hate to bring it to his attention because I love having the extra money and it's a kick that we haven't been punished yet.Maybe that is just around the corner....