http://mormonstories.org/three-geneticists-respond-lds-essay-dna-book-of-mormon-michael-ash/

Great Stuff! The comments are scathing.

Just perusing the LENGTHY responses back and forth from these blow-hards makes me exhausted before even diving in!

It makes as much sense to me to have a deep scholarly discussion about Dianetics or Reiki or Flat Earth Theory.

Go ahead folks (at BYU or other church-run spin-farms), spend hours of precious time worrying about this nonsense. It's just more proof to the rest of us that human beings really ARE just animals with shiny tools still struggling to make a REAL cognitive evolutionary leap beyond believing in fantastical, but ultimately useless, gibberish because it makes us feel good.

Enigma

Which is what the church hopes will happen when people scan the DNA essay that they won't delve into it deeply to see through the smoke screen. The podcast is really good and demolishes the BOM.

Actually, reiki is taught to nurses (CE credits) nowadays because they have found it has relaxation benefits for those in hospital, which in turns helps their healing. It won't cure cancer, can't help you discover a "spirit guide" or bring money magically into your life but it's not in the league of Mormon DNA or Dianetics.

I listened to this Mormon Stories podcast last night. I'm a science geek and found it well worth the time. DNA does not lie. The one fact that is very revealing from this podcast is that 99.6% of ALL Native American DNA, from the furthest known human settlement at the top of North America to Tierra del Fuego at the tip of South America comes from Asian migrations via the Bering land bridge some 15-20 thousand years ago. The other 0.4% of DNA for these Native Americans comes from either Africa or Spain. None of their DNA comes from the Middle East. That is why Book of Mormon DNA is demolished. Michael Ash and all of the church's apologists who try to downplay DNA results are simply wrong.

Pssh...you know your dna becomes hebrew only after you get baptized...they started making sure we knew that well...right up until DNA became a known thing. At least they have enough business sense to change things up and keep people paying.

Great podcast!

They pull no punches, and these are people who know what they're talking about.

All geneticists are under the control of Satan. And all archeologists, linguists, biologists, metallurgists, and cultural anthropoligists. And the Smithsonian, and all journal editors.

Stan is a busy guy. But damn, he's thorough.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stan is a busy guy. But damn, he's thorough.

Yes he is. ;)

I like something that Jaasiel Rodriguez brought up in the comments, basically that apologists bring in the term "nuanced", when the fact is that the BoM and church make bold claims that "...are at the core of our being."

Jaasiel talks about being hispanic and LDS teachings:

" The thing is the church’s claims are not so nuanced. If you were a hispanic growing up your whole life justifying the polygamy and racism of a foreign authority that claims to have divine privilege to the knowledge of your ancestry, makes you give priority to their pioneer culuture because it is an intrinsic part of what got them that privilege, then see them start to change the claim, it’s not AT ALL nuanced. It’s the way of life of a person, of a people. Just the same you feel a great discomfort at the thought of your doctrine not being true, at it being attacked, so do we hispanic lamanites, at least the honest ones seeking for truth, feel a great discomfort at the thought of our heritage not being what we were taught by an authority asking you for your faith and life’s devotion."

So which is it, ChurchCo, Inc.? Are there Plain and Precious Truths that have been restored, or or is the Truth™ squirreled away by God so that only the faithful can search it out?

Chicken N. Backpacks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So which is it, ChurchCo, Inc.? Are there Plain
> and Precious Truths that have been restored, or
> is the Truth™ squirreled away by God so that
> only the faithful can search it out?


"The Truth™ squirreled away" is the Mormon Church's version of the truth as it has evolved over the last 185 years. And this so-called truth is being eroded via intelligent and outspoken people who do authentic research. What is squirreled away are documents and artifacts that could destroy the church. It is surprising that they let out the photo of Joseph's peepstone. What other goodies do they have?

Quote Ed Goble:

"The lazy and unproductive and impatient and faithless mindset of the critics is the true problem here. Because they (1) refuse to acknowledge when apologists DO have evidence that actually IS suggestive that their point of view is plausibly correct. And (2) they declare victory prematurely and impatiently when the evidence is not before us that gives PROOF that it is so. (3) They forget that God was the one that told us in the Book of Mormon in the first place that we are intentionally in a state where he intentionally withholds evidence from us to see what we will choose."

I am so happy to be "unproductive and impatient and faithless". Defending mythical evidence can be exhausting. Just look at all the writing those apologist have to cook up to keep their position alive.

They lean heavily into a confirmation bias because "The Holy Ghost Confirms it is true". The fallacy of the HG is as Jeremy Runnells points out: "FairMormon ignores the fundamental dilemma and problem of pointing to god and spiritual experiences/witnesses as evidence of one’s faith and truth claims while ironically claiming one can know Mormonism is true through the same faulty method used by other religions and their followers." http://cesletter.com/debunking-fairmormon/testimony.html#1


Religion is the invention of man to manipulate the hearts of men.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2015 01:20PM by cognitivedissonance.

And... If they get it wrong, it is because they were just speaking as men...

It's a win-win for them!

"They forget that God was the one that told us in the Book of Mormon in the first place that we are intentionally in a state where he intentionally withholds evidence from us to see what we will choose."

Yes, that is a true gem: the BoM tells us that evidence for the BoM is *intentionally* hidden from us by God.


Nice. Almost sounds like Heavenly Father is a trickster parent.

Or it's child abuse.

"They forget that God was the one that told us in the Book of Mormon in the first place that we are intentionally in a state where he intentionally withholds evidence from us to see what we will choose."

But of course! That's also why Bigfeets and space aliens intentionally hide evidence of their existence from us. They want us to believe in them by faith, not by sight.

cognitivedissonance Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They forget that God was the one that told us in
> the Book of Mormon in the first place that we are
> intentionally in a state where he intentionally
> withholds evidence from us to see what we will
> choose."

So "god" intentionally lies, and then demands we make "choices" based on his lies and lack of facts.

No, thanks. That's a stupid way to make choices. The more information we have that's factual, the better able we are to make reasonable, correct choices. Not to mention that insisting your "god" is an intentional liar isn't the best possible defense of your claimed "god" in the first place.

The changes made by the church to the introduction to the BOM are another little lie that they have gotten caught at. From principle ancestors to among some of the ancestors is an attempt to redefine what church leaders have been saying since the church was organized.

"The lazy and unproductive and impatient and faithless mindset of the critics is the true problem here. Because they (1) refuse to acknowledge when apologists DO have evidence that actually IS suggestive that their point of view is plausibly correct. And (2) they declare victory prematurely and impatiently when the evidence is not before us that gives PROOF that it is so. (3) They forget that God was the one that told us in the Book of Mormon in the first place that we are intentionally in a state where he intentionally withholds evidence from us to see what we will choose."

Name calling right off the bat. Then directly followed by stating that his painting of the critics by name calling is the “problem”. Just like Jesus would do.

“Because they (1) refuse to acknowledge when apologists DO have evidence that actually IS suggestive that their point of view is plausibly correct.”

G- @#$%##! Just look how e-ffed up that is and all in one sentence! Evidence that is “suggestive” that an apologists “point of view” is “plausibly correct”

OH that’s right Larry’s other Brother Larry! This statement is swimming in logic! That’s the very description of evidence! God I need a sharp stick to stab myself with.

" they declare victory prematurely and impatiently when the evidence is not before us that gives PROOF that it is so."

Wait? Didn't you just say......?

“They forget that God was the one that told us in the Book of Mormon in the first place that we are intentionally in a state where he intentionally withholds evidence from us to see what we will choose."

So god gave us evidence that he would not provide evidence of something? Ok, but I’m going to need another hit of Crack to stay on this crazy train. So what will I choose? More Crack!

AmIDarkNow? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> So god gave us evidence that he would not provide
> evidence of something? Ok, but I’m going to
> need another hit of Crack to stay on this crazy
> train. So what will I choose? More Crack!

Indeed! That's why I nominated Ozzie Osborne to be one of the new aposles. And when he is introduced at GC "Crazy Train" will be played while Ozzie babbles incoherently.

Curious...where are the BoM verses that claim that God hides evidence or prevents it from coming forth?

"Curious...where are the BoM verses that claim that God hides evidence or prevents it from coming forth?"

I don't think there are any, although Moroni's promise says to pray for a spiritual witness of the book's truthfulness. Those passages, in a way, tells us not to rely on physical evidence, but rather a spiritual confirmation.

Church leaders have also warned against relying on physical evidence. For instance, a 1978 Church News article stated:

"The geography of the Book of Mormon has intrigued some readers of that volume ever since its publication. But why worry about it?.....To guess where Zarahemla stood can in no wise add to anyone's faith. But to raise doubts in peoples' minds about the location.....is most certainly harmful. And who has the right to raise doubts in anyone's mind? Our position is to build faith, not weaken it, and theories concerning the geography of the Book of Mormon can most certainly undermine faith if allowed to run rampant. Why not leave hidden the things that the Lord has hidden? If he wants the geography of the Book of Mormon revealed, He will do so through his prophet....."

That corresponds with the apologist's remark that "God intentionally withholds evidence from us". You're supposed to believe in the BOM by prayer, faith, and testimony, rather than actual evidence. And that is the basis for many TBMs' continued belief.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2015 06:01PM by randyj.

Mike Ash is a worm. He is a apologist scientist who KNOWS the facts don't back up his argument so he weasels the bits he wants from them and leaves out the rest. I don't know how he can have so much compartmentalization that he will not see the truth. I suspect that he knows the truth but argues against it because...it's a paycheck? He smacks of someone who sold his integrity to gain money peddling misleading ideas to keep the morgbots in line.

I hope it was worth it. BYU must pay well...for now.

I think that Michael Ash is an apologist non-scientist.

He really has no background at all, and simply possesses enough sales skills to market his work.

"Curious...where are the BoM verses that claim that God hides evidence or prevents it from coming forth?"

Of course it says it--you just need to do a careful, nuanced reading of the text!

:-)

Chicken N. Backpacks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Curious...where are the BoM verses that claim
> that God hides evidence or prevents it from coming
> forth?"
>
> Of course it says it--you just need to do a
> careful, nuanced reading of the text!
>
> :-)


Okay, I'll make this brief. WTF is nuanced reading? Is that something Joseph did with his brown rock? Is there a college course I can take called Nuanced Reading? Where did Mike Ash come up with this shit?

That podcast was the best I've heard in a while.

"Okay, I'll make this brief. WTF is nuanced reading?"

That's when an apologist walks into a barnyard and then writes a long dissertation on why what he just stepped in is actually Shinola.

My family kept pestering me about the "DNA Evidence" for years. They even wasted their money on a book from FAIR (think that was the organizations name).

It had references to several stories which they did a bang up job proving it was all true. End of story. Right?

Not exactly.

I started making phone calls and emailing the researchers and one professor from Texas about that Haplo X gene I kept hearing was proof.

All of them said the book misrepresented their research and the professor even sent me a copy of her paper which proved the opposite of what FAIR was looking for. I was even asked for the name of the book and organization because they were getting a call from her.

funny thing. I haven't heard anything about that book again.

Go figure.

And she and a number of other scholars were understandably miffed at the way their research was misrepresented and unscrupuously edited sound bites were used to suggest they supported the claims in the video, "The Lost Civilizations of North America."

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizations_lost_and_found_fabricating_history_-_part_one_an_alternate_re/

The names of the scientists whose views were grossly distoreted are at the end, and they include Brad Lepper, the Ohio State Archaeologist, who's blogged extensively on the subject.

Here he's debunking some nonsense from Scott Wolter who appears on "America Unearthed" and promotes such proven frauds as the Newark Holy Stones and the Kensington Runestone. While not a Mormon, Wolter is popular among LDS members who believe in ancient "Old World/New World Diffusion."

http://apps.ohiohistory.org/ohioarchaeology/newark-holy-stone-is-featured-on-america-unearthed/

The comments section is interesting; Wolter got a thorough spanking, and not long after Rodney Meldrum showed up. RFM contributor Simon Southerton made a trans-Pacific post that demolished Meldrum's "Young Earth" ideas (no prizes for guessing who it was who alerted Simon). Simon, of course, is good friends with John Dehlin, and he's featured in the link above.

Here's the first of his three-part discussion of Rodney Meldrum's nonsense:

http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com/2013/09/meldrums-x-lineage-good.html

Loved this.
Thanks.
Very detailed, Very much holding LDS., Inc feet to the fire

This link is invaluable and sent to anyone who has fallen for the apologetics.

Talk about a deconstruction of the Mormon argument.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2015 11:52PM by angela.

The burning in my bosom fizzled out long ago.

At 55, I finally have some bosom (man-bosom;-) just aching to burn, and I finally have a Book of Mormon, but so far, no incendiary effects to be reported.

Bursting out laughing, however, is much more common when I try to read it.

It's such an obvious fake AND it's so badly written.

Tom in Paris