>for me that would be draconian and too much like being his mother

You are not his mother...you're his WIFE!

You are way overanalyzing this. A man should never put his wife in the situation you're in. NEVER. All the things you're having to rationalize and consider and give him leeway on...they're all wrong. They shouldn't be happening.

You've "caught" him in this. He's admitted wrongdoing to you--things that are unacceptable to you, but you only require him to "scale back" his activity. ???

They've apparently shared "I love you"s, and you're ok with him now just making "social calls?" They shouldn't be seeing each other, period. There is no legitimate basis to their relationship. It's all excuses, rationalization and double-talk.

To you he claims he's backed off, just "friends," whatever. What do you really think is going on when he visits? I'm not saying there's sex, necessarily, but I seriously doubt he's stopping by for a cup of coffee and catching up on neighborhood gossip or talking about work for an hour.

Whatever kind of intimacy they have, or "special" relationship, should be reserved for YOU.

You shouldn't have to explain away his behavior, or rationalize his now "limited" relationship with her. There should be none of this behavior. There should be no relationship.

If it was "love," at all, ever, it should be over.

If it went from "love" to "friends" and "conversation," then it would be torture, for both of them.

You're clearly a very intelligent woman. The analysis you've put into this over-the-top. You shouldn't have to do it at all. Either he wants to be your husband--forsaking all others--or he does not.

I don't know, I can only believe what he says. They talk about her beliefs, music and her work. He says. She never asks him about himself. They text about work and music; brief texts and I read them. Do I see them all? Who knows.

I do not have the courage to tell him to cut her off entirely. I don't want to deal with his being a shit about it. He says he will never leave me no matter what, but would I want him, being a resentful shit?

My opinion has always been that when people develop inappropriate feelings for each other, the character tell is not that they have them, but what they do about them. So far he is doing better than I hoped. No, I am not satisfied yet. He says he forsakes all others, but we are not there yet.

Reading through these posts makes my mind wander to Hilary and Bill Clinton.

How she looked the other way so many times, and turned the other cheek.

How many wives do that, for the sake of their marriage?

More then we'll ever know.

I wouldn't have the fortitude to stick it out. My hat is off to you for being able to.

One of my step-brothers was a serial cheater on his wife for the first 25 years of their marriage. Finally, he called it quits after their 5th child was born, and went sober. He'd had a drinking problem during those years though he was LDS.

After straightening out his drinking and womanizing, he's still with his wife going on nearly 50 years of marriage. He later became a member of the bishopric where they live.

Men can change. His wife stuck by him through the bad times, when other women would've tossed in the towel. She either really loves him, or just wasn't ready to be a single mom. Take yer pick. :)

>I do not have the courage to tell him to cut her off entirely.

I kind of gathered that, reading between the lines, Amiable. Some of my commentary has been pretty straight to the point, but at the same time I didn't want to be too cruel. Your analysis and details didn't exactly add up. Thanks for being honest about your fear. I can understand it, and it helps me understand your perspective a little better.

When I was still in my "serial monogamy" phase, I wasn't married. I rationalized frequently that I hadn't made a commitment to anyone, and I truly did not make explicit commitments. I took refuge in that "technicality" at times. But I knew even then that I hadn't made a commitment, and knew that I really wanted to ultimately. I also knew that being in relationships, and engaging in certain behaviors, allowed the girls I was dating to implicitly set expectations of fidelity, etc. I danced up to those lines, and trampled on them. I didn't intentionally mean to be cruel, or hurt anyone, but I did. Sometimes I was afraid. Sometimes I think I ruined relationships subconsciously so that I wouldn't have to make a commitment.

Anyway, it strikes me that perhaps you should just let your guard down and be honest with your husband, instead of worrying about playing "mother" to him or analyzing all this stuff in painstaking detail. Tell him you're afraid. Tell him he's hurting you. Shed some tears.

Nothing made me feel worse than knowing I hurt someone. That probably sounds stupid, given the history I've described, but my behavior, as often as not, was as much motivated by my own fears and hurts (and issues) as it was by ego-stroking and the high of being in relationships with multiple people. And it broke my heart to know I hurt others.

I don't wrestle with a lot of those demons any more, because I found someone that I know I can count on absolutely, who won't hurt me or let me down. But I'm still a man, and have temptations. One of the single biggest motivators for me, to stay on the straight-and-narrow, is knowing that I NEVER want to see tears in my wife's eyes, or my daughter's, because I did something so selfish and stupid.

And I think this is why I have such a hard time cutting your husband any slack, because this is exactly what I see him doing to you. I suspect that you're afraid if you give him an ultimatum, he might call your bluff on it. Let me tell you something, Amiable, if that's his answer, then he's not worth hanging on to. You deserve better than that.

Beautifully written! Please take this man's advice! More heartfelt than you'd get from any therapist.

Thank you anon4this for your commentary. Yes, beautifully written. It means a lot to me, as obviously you are a thoughtful person, speaking from the heart. I know my story seems somewhat disjointed sometimes, mostly because it is hard to compress everything into a few succinct paragraphs. I appreciate your telling me about your journey, your experiences and your feelings. It confirms my belief that people can change if they so choose.

To your point amyjo, I would not be married to him if I thought we were still where we were 8 years ago. That is why I stick it out. And I haven’t troubled anyone with an inventory of all of the good things about our marriage, the things that keep us together. I know he knows what an exceptional bond we have. But that is not the point. He is flawed, a serial cheater, and I never knew till 15 years into our marriage, when I discovered his first physical affair. The cheating was mostly emotional, with two physical affairs along the way, but cheating nonetheless. My naivte regarding that and my inability to recognize inappropriate behavior are fairly embarrassing to me now. I have lost that unquestioning belief in him forever. That may not be a bad thing, though.

But since that time, and certainly in this latest development, I have not held back. It took me a while, and some therapy, but now he gets the full force of my anger, my tears, my hopelessness, my passion, all that his behavior may engender. What I insist on is transparency about what he says or does with any woman, not just this old chickie. I have told him that if he “finds himself” in love with someone else, he may not lie and deceive. He needs to man up and tell me so I can leave.

I reiterate that it is really difficult for me to throw down an ultimatum, because it would mean so much more to me if he would govern his own behavior for my sake. And, surprisingly, he is. Because he is making such strides, and doing so much to make himself a better man, at least for now I feel we are on the right path. I hope we can continue, but if not, am prepared to leave him. I was single, happily, for a long time before we met, have a good job, and will do just fine without him. I would be sad to lose what we had, but I have pretty much resolved that I can do that.

The part of the equation that I am starting to understand from reading this site is what the heck kind of person poaches on another woman’s husband. The reason I say this is that he taught for about a year, thinking of her just as another student, but over time she started telling him about her boyfriends, her ex-husbands, and her feelings of loneliness. That is when he started getting off on the attention, and being a little god to her. She thinks he is just extraordinarily kind, happy and loving, and tells him so frequently. Doesn’t he just love that!

Me, I know that if I started to talk to a man about things like that, with no one around, it would be because I wanted to take it further; specifically, into his pants. Admittedly she may not have that mindset at all, given her chosen religion.

But I digress. I know my problem is with him, not her, and I appreciate all the insights confirming my feelings and bolstering my strength to stand up for what I need from him. I really appreciate everyone’s time in responding, and have copied these posts to give me strength!

I don't know in what context he is teaching this woman but if it is in any institutional setting at all he is playing with fire a could (perhaps should) lose his job. He should know this.

He knows this. It is private non-institutional teaching and they are the same age.

DUMP THE FUCKER! Can we by any more blunt about this? You deserve better. Get rid of this slimeball. No more excuses for him.
Many responders have been going round and round the bush saying what I have stated here but they have not been clear enough I guess.

Put the FUCKER'S clothing on the front porch in garbage bags. DUMP THE FUCKER! Do it now before he makes a bigger fool of you. Let him move in with this girlfriend of his.

It is a process, and that may well be the end result. Doing it now is just not me, as he is doing all I ask. If he fails, yes, she has a nice big house.

Be cautious, and please don't be afraid to express your concerns, and fears.

My ex insisted the woman he was texting, talking, and meeting with was nothing more than a friend, he was helping her in regard to her faith during a roughtime in her life .

Yes, he and I talked some about what was going on, what they talked about. I got to see some of the text messages.

He left me for her.

I'm not saying that's the inevitable outcome, and at this point I wouldn't go back, but if, for you on the whole, the good out ways the bad, speak up.

Even with my happiness with my life now, I still harbor some regret for not speaking up sooner.

Men.

Not all are serial cheaters. It's the ones who are who give the rest of them a bad rap.

You too, are better off without him. Would speaking up sooner had made any difference? If he was on that course to the destruction of your marriage, it might not have mattered.

My sister-in-law's father left her mother for another woman - all were TBM at the time. They'd been temple married. This newly divorcee from their ward would call him over to fix things at her home. He went along, pretending to be just wanting to "help." He left his wife for her after they engaged in an affair.

He left the church because of that. He didn't even marry the woman he had the affair with, but someone else after his wife divorced him.

The "other" woman had designs on him from the beginning, it was apparent to my sis-in-law. She didn't see much of her father after that. He divorced his children too, or they divorced him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2015 02:22PM by amyjo.

I don't believe it would have changed anything, just wish I'd had more spine then.

As i said in my previous post, I'm happy with my life now. I would not take him back, for any reason.

I know men aren't serial cheaters and in my venture back into the dating world I've met men that are amazing and wonderful, and not for me, but we've become great friends, something I was missing in my marriage. A point of fact I've made to a couple of guys I've gone out with, I will not give up my friends for you. I gave up so much in my marriage that at this point compromise will happen on a case by case basis, if my friend asks for help studying for his GED I'm going to help him. (I kick ass at math.) After having been cheated on I'd never do that to someone after experiencing it.

To some extent I agree with elderolddog, my ex and the other woman did me a favor. His leaving forced me to accept I was living a lie in regard to me. I was never the one he wanted and it took him cheating for me to realize he'd spent years trying to make me her.

At the end of the day, though, the point of my post was to encourage amiable to do what she feels is necessary for her.

Speaking up and having a direct conversation could fix things, it could not, the point is, regardless of outcome in the end she'll know she did everything she could.

Oh yeah! I had mostly forgotten that I got dumped by my wife of 26 years after she found out her first husband, whom she'd dumped because he was bland and boring, was now rich! The process of her getting him to take her back was painful.

But it came as a pleasant surprise to me later, that they had done me a favor. But at the time, I didn't want things to change.

Of course there is no guarantee that change will be an improvement, but there is the old saying, "It's better to be alone than in bad company." This isn't an absolute; if you wouldn't be able to eat if you had no company, than bad company is preferable to starving to death.

I was 65 when my ex dumped me. Now I'm 70 and pretty darn happy with life. It really did get better. She dumped the dog and the cat, too. The dog died but the cat is still going strong.

I wouldn't be so harsh as to say "dump him," but I would say "dump him if he doesn't dramatically clean up his act."

I just don't get this notion that he can slowly back-pedal his way out of this, or treat her "right" as to how he winds down their relationship. It should be stopped, yesterday. Give each other up, cold turkey.

Let me phrase this some other ways:

-if his problem were that he was a child molester, would it be ok if he only molested a child once a week as opposed to several times a week?

-if he was a drug addict, would it be ok if he only got high once a week, as opposed to several times a week?

The "frequency" of the misbehavior is not the problem. The misbehavior itself is.

Your husband is carrying on in some form or fashion with another woman, and he shouldn't be. Period. It's not "ok" once a week, because it's not ok at all.

I know people can rationalize all sorts of things. For example, "he only beats me on Fridays, and the bruises heal before I go back to work on Monday, so it's 'ok'."

I mentioned in an earlier message that you're enabling him, and you are, by accepting his excuses and rationales.

If he loves you, and is truly contrite, then he should simply quit seeing this woman. It's not like his attention is saving her life or something. He's not over there giving her blood transfusions.

And I want to be blunt about this: just because he tells you what's going on, or what they're doing, doesn't mean what he tells you is true. And I would bet that more than likely it is not. The only way that you can be sure of what they're (not) doing, and what they're (not) saying to one another, if he's not over there at all.

Well I am giving it a shot because I do want to feel that I have done everything in my power and true to me to fix this.

I know that I could make this stop in a number of very spectacular ways; contacting her ward, for example. I do not feel powerless. Calling and telling her to fuck off would probably be the most direct and sufficient to make her go away. Then of course I would have to deal with him. Who knows. If he loves drama, he might like me doing that. (No, he would not like that.)

I am harboring the perhaps fond hope that they both continue to step up in their respective ways and act honorably.

No, there is no way for me to know exactly what they do say to each other or if what they say is true, but I am not an idiot, and I am highly attuned to lies and inconsistencies nowadays. I know he loves me and does not want to lose me, and I have made it clear what my limits are. Very clear.

At some point I might feel I need him to stop seeing her in any context. I truly am not at that point yet. I do know I have options, and life without him doesn't scare me.

I was very innocent at the beginning. My father had been a wonderful guy, totally devoted to my mother, always sharing in the household work, thanking and complementing her on everything she did. So, not having seen any other examples, I thought that ALL men were supposed to be like that.

I was shocked after working hard to prepare a lovely supper, when I asked my new husband to help with the dishes and he flatly refused, saying, "That's YOUR job!" I said, "But I COOKED it. Can't you at least help clean up?" He reiterated that it was MY job.

That was only the beginning of disillusionment.

Many years later, he met a woman at work. He talked more and more about how impressive she was, how she had an MBA, how she had impressive sales numbers, etc, etc. Before long, while he spent time on the phone with ALL of his sales reps, he spent MORE time talking to HER.

Then she developed problems with her husband, and started coming over to our house for consolation. I was usually told to go out in the kitchen and fix something to eat, so they could talk. She got a divorce.

As time went on, I realized that my husband was getting up at four or so in the mornings, and making LONG phone calls from another room. I crept out to try to figure out who he was talking to, and I realized very quickly that it had to be HER. And it certainly wasn't about work-related stuff.

To me, he would say deeply personal stuff like, "Did you remember to pay the light bill?" or "Don't forget to put the trash out tomorrow." To her, he poured his heart out about his hopes and dreams.

For a while, I tried to engage him on this turf, asking questions about people and things at work, trying to draw him out. He finally said bluntly, "Quit playing Twenty Questions."

I got up the nerve to ask if they were having an affair. It was quite obvious that they were already deeply involved emotionally.

BOTH of them insisted that they were "just friends." Looking back, I can see that this was totally crazy-making. To any outsider, it would have been immediately apparent that they were far more than "just friends." But I SO wanted to believe the man I had married. . .

I eventually got out of that mess, and she moved in with him about two weeks after I moved out. We weren't even divorced yet.

I was very bitter for a long time, unable to trust men at all, and decided that marriage would not happen to me again. Not ever.

And then I met the sweetest guy in the world, and we just celebrated our 24th anniversary.

If your man can't be totally faithful to you, GET THE HELL OUT!! You deserve better. I've been there, and I know how infidelity hurts.

I love this response.

+1000

Edited to note that even for Catnip took her time to find her way out of that.

As emotionally painful as it must be to go through, the processing of what's going on resembles the grieving stages of a lost love. Denial, anger, grief, bargaining, and finally acceptance of what was is now over.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2015 10:04AM by amyjo.

Catnip, your first comment totally nails why I was so naïve as to not know that my husband cheated seventeen years into our marriage. Seventeen years!! What a dumb shit I was. My father was a good man, too, and though of course he had flaws, infidelity and lying were not among them. He also was clever, smart and successful, to say nothing of devoted to his wife and family. A really tough act to follow.

My original post is here: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1694778

This is such an ongoing process and I am not predicting where it will lead. Right now he and I are resolving this in ways that we both can embrace. His friendship with this Mormon woman has become quite pedestrian. This has however raised a lot of old feelings in me and renewed my conviction that if he is not able to continue to grow and modify inappropriate proclivities, or better said, if I catch him lying, or pursuing anyone(!) we are done.

I am so happy your story has a happy ending. I will say that if I do leave him, at my age, I will be a single woman till I die, and happy about it. I have no interest in dealing with another man at this point in my life! I don’t feel bitter, really, but just know it would be a relief to just have myself to worry about.