I return and report my visit with the stake president.

I was invited to meet with SP to “get acquainted.” I met at the agreed on time, we sat down in the high council room, dragging a couple chairs together.

He truly did want to get acquainted. He and I have known of each other for 35 years but he knew nothing of my background. In his capacity of presiding high priest he was going through the list of high priests and interviewing us.

I told him where I came from, how I came to California, how I came to Santa Barbara. Where did I meet DW. How many kids and where they live. What I do for a living. The whole picture.

What is your calling? I told him. How do you like it? Then he went off on a tangent into family history and how much he enjoys it. "Do you enjoy it Bro. rutabaga?" "No not really."

I was really beginning to think this was all he wanted, just get to know me.

Timidly, slowly, hesitantly, “Bro. rutabaga, it seems like I remember something about some doctrinal issue you have?” Okay, here we go.

So I launched. I don’t have the “religion gene” (true) I don’t have a craving need for spirituality and I kept coming back to that with the other topics we discussed.

I told him I haven’t been to the temple for decades. Up to now he had been cool and calm. At this piece of news his eyebrow went up a millimeter. “Well why Bro. rutabaga?” I explained what I had learned about the Nauvoo temple, the genesis of the endowment, and when combined with the elements of masonry and polygamy, in my mind it became less a divine gift than a way to solemnize a predilection. “Yes Bro. rutabaga, that is a comment we are hearing a lot.”

At that my eyebrows went up. As we went from temple to BOM to curriculum to prayer to revelation I gave him my misgivings. His response was invariably “yes Bro. rutabaga that is a comment we are hearing a lot.”

He talked about the essays and how he thought they were helpful in that they are a safe place to find church history. I didn’t comment.

He wound down by bearing testimony of the BOM and invited me to read it.

If there is a takeaway it is “yes Bro. rutabaga that is a comment we are hearing a lot.” If he will admit that there must be a lot of people like me.

Through the whole interview we were both calm, cool and collected. Both of us confident in our position.

We parted with some small talk and a garmie feel-up at the door.

This is my report.

For the backstory:
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1696444

And thanks to Amyjo for keeping it going:
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1696894

After three bishops in a row (over several years) wanted to chat with me, the last one asked if I would meet with the local Institute director, who was an expert in church history and doctrinal questions...

He had the same comment about "hearing that a lot". His words were "the adversary is having some success among the members" when it came to historical issues and BoA and BoM and temple rip offs etc etc etc...

Sadly, 'the adversary' is the truth of church history.

like it was a letdown from what you were expecting?

Yes, it sounds that way, but it was pretty much exactly what I expected.
I didn't want any fireworks.

Damn....they sure want to dig for info don't they? Never had a meeting with anyone in authority about my anything churchy, but then again I never had a calling above HT. My first impulse would be to deny anyone the opportunity to question me about anything. None of their GD business.

RB

Yes, we're hearing a lot about the problems with church history, evidence showing the BOM false, evidence showing the BoA false, etc.
But it's still all true. Damn the evidence, full speed ahead!

Sigh.

+1, he hears it all the time but doesn't question the veracity of the church?!

Sounds like the SP pulled out his old missionary training shit and read the chapter on building relationships of trust.

Ahh... that was the typical mining expedition to see if he could find any nuggets! Too dang nosy for my taste anymore!

You came prepared ! I like knowing that others have told him the same kinds of things -- there is trouble in Carson City, I see!
Bro rutabaga is not the only one with really big concerns!

Good that it was all kept civil and except for his testimony (which is a requirement), sounds like you made your point and was not denigrated, specifically.
Read the BOM? That is what got you to where you are now!
Silliness. He has a script and had to follow it.
Really all those leaders can advice is two things: pray and read the scriptures. That's the limit of their spiritual advice. It's never going to change.

He has been intrusive and heavy-handed in some of the reports I've been given, and taken steps that are totally inappropriate. (One involved me, and I was not a member.) I wonder if he is finding out that doesn't work and backfires.

I would have been a bit uncomfortable with all the one-way information gathering. When you are dealing with an organization like the LDS church, nothing is confidential, and CAN be used against you for gossip or in a court of love.

He wasn't just 'getting to know you'. He was getting to know you because of his position in the organization: to assess risk.

But at least you got something out of it, too: it's interesting to know that they are well aware of the problems and that they are losing members because of it.

"He wasn't just 'getting to know you'. He was getting to know you because of his position in the organization: to assess risk."

Bingo. He mentioned that in trying to fill some stake positions they were disturbed at the shallow bench they had to choose from. That was part of the reason he wanted to talk to me.

(GRINNING. SO the bench is shallow? Good sign)

+1

I've long wondered if this will cause a tipping point for the collapse of the church in areas. If there's no one to staff the positions, and only a few handful of people participate until ultimate burnout, will they have to start doing some serious consolidating? Once that happens, and people have to travel long distances to attend, will even the most faithful stop attending, causing some real, visible collapse?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2015 06:36PM by Devoted Exmo.

I think we're already there in our ward.

STP Same Ten People rotating through the same jobs.

Our new bishop travels for work. He was set apart three weeks ago and we haven't seen him yet. Counselors (STP's) doing the heavy lifting.

Are you in the morridor?

Central coast of California

Oh duh! You did mention Santa Barbara. How many stakes/wards in the area?

SB stake - 7 wards including singles ward and a spanish ward.

Agreed. Rutabaga was being interrogated, no matter how the SP tried to sugarcoat it.

The information SP gleaned will become a part of rutabaga's permanent church file, assuming they are kept on certain dissonant members, for future reference and perhaps use in tribunals as needed at later dates.

SP asked what I thought of the BoM. I said, "well lacking the religion gene, it really reads like an adventure story." No real reaction from SP.

But he plowed ahead and encouraged me to read it with full intent and I would develop a religion gene. He had to give me the company talking points.

Another friend suggested that his equanimity might have come in his marching orders from SLC. Shocking info from the members? "Yeah we hear a lot of that" effectively stopping the conversation.

I was surprised that he was able to sit there and act like he had heard what I was saying a dozen times.

I really like how you affirm you have no "religion gene"!
It's brilliant! :-)
I think the one I had was defective or had a short shelf life! :-)

I would have fired back three questions in regards to his comment that "we are hearing that a lot" regarding troubling issues of church history.

Question 1) If the LDS essays are supposed to answer troubling questions, and we are not to hide from the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and we are to be honest with our fellow man to get a temple recommend and are not supposed to yield to the Devil's temptations in being dishonest according to the definition set forth in Gospel Essentials Chapter 31 (called "Honesty"), wherein it states: "Honest people will recognize Satan’s temptations and will speak the whole truth, even if it seems to be to their disadvantage", why then stake president aren't the Q15 standing at the pulpit in general conference and telling the truth BOLDLY as opposed to hiding behind unofficial apologists and anonymous essays?

Question 2) Mr. SP, when are you going to be honest with your fellow flock members and stand at the pulpit in the stake center and tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth regarding the true history of the church, not the whitewashed, deceptive, misrepresented correlated version?

Question 3) Irrespective of your position as a SP or the Q15 as the leaders of this church, do you think God condones all of you to say this is his one true church, a true Christian enterprise, and yet sits in his magical mysterious celestial throne and does just the opposite of what the scriptures advocate as to the nature of God, that no unclean thing can inherit the celestial kingdom, and therefore sanctions deception, misrepresentation and dishonesty as virtues he approves?

I would love to have looked right into his eyes and said, "President, until you have the courage to stand up in stake conference and tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, you sir are a coward, and are only fooling yourself to think that you are still a righteous individual in the eyes of God."

EDITED to ADD: For jiminycricket, I find the honesty argument the most compelling. It applies to all nations, kindreds, tongues and people. In the most blatant hypocritical way, Mormon's have destroyed the definition of honesty, just like they have destroyed the definition of "testimony."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2015 01:53PM by jiminycricket.

Great questions!

There were a lot of things I wanted to say. I think I made my point.

No ones mind was changed last night. But I accomplished my goal of getting my name off the list of potential callings.

It is well. Peter, James, John, go down to the man Adam. . . AND BE TOLD TO FUCK OFF!

If Satan is trying to lead people out of the LDS church, because the church is full of lies, abuse, and falsified history, then it sounds like Satan is good. A force for truth, honesty, freedom, and self-determination.

If God is the god of the LDS church and the LDS church is the only church He is pleased with, then God is evil, the father of lies. One who attempts to deceive and enslave. One who delights in torment and inflicting misery.

+1

This seems to sum up what the LDS church is like. Lies are good that protect the church and the gathering of its precious gold. Truth is bad because it bites into their profits if people aren't mindlessly paying their tithing.

"This seems to sum up what the LDS church is like. Lies are good that protect the church and the gathering of its precious gold. Truth is bad because it bites into their profits if people aren't mindlessly paying their tithing."

Right. Some things that are true aren't very useful.....to the church's fortunes.

Great frame of reference.

Thank you to all of you who commented and supported me in this adventure.

I couldn't have done it without you!

I'd just have one simple question for him. If what makes the LDS church different from all other churches is it's Profit who receives revelation direct from God, why has there been no new or important revelations since the founding days of the church? I don't count lifting the ban on Blacks and the priesthood as a "revelation" per se, it's more of a change in policy.

So, why has God stopped speaking though his profits since Joseph Smith died? And since he hasn't why even have a profit? Why say revelation is what makes you right and true when it doesn't exist?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2015 06:04PM by Devoted Exmo.

I was ready for that.

Why is the church backing off on their claims of revelation/infallibility.

Hinkley "I am sustained as such"
Uchtdorf "hey we're just guys who make mistakes"

The convo didn't veer in that direction.

Yeah, I'm sure the SP wouldn't want to discuss the elephant in the room.

ATTN LDS INC.!!!!

Bearing one's testimony to others does not convert people. It does not convince them of anything. It has no power, no special effects.

It's a fruitless technique.

Right. A testimony tells what someone else believes. It's not a virus that you can catch.