Not a thing. I've never had a "testimony", but what I did have was an excessive obsession with getting one, and I was intent on doing all the right things so that God would give me what he had given so many of my friends and family. It was only after I exhausted all the steps, including temple marriage, and still couldn't see how the church could be true, that I said, "Welp, that's it, the church is the crazy, silly, stupid thing that it looks like on the surface. Because either god would have told me it is true by now, or he's a crazy, silly, stupid god that I don't like anyway.
We said it all to our son when he was on his mission and we resigned, to boot. It didn't do any good. I'd call him a new order Mormon, but he's still in. Damnit.
I was raised believing that true happiness could only be found in life if you lived the "true gospel".
When I arrived in Denmark & found a very joy-filled, fun-loving, happy people it confounded me. What could I offer these people? They were big on spending time with friends & family & not so big on god & material wealth. It got me to question. I also got exposed to free-thinking atheists that made many valid points.
I still thank the Danish people for beginning my journey to happiness.
The first step which I took in 1991 was leaving the church.
At the beginning of my mission there was probably nothing anyone could have said to me that would have swayed me from what I "knew." At the end, because I was convinced it was all nonsense, I probably would have gone for coffee with anyone who criticized the belief system of COJCOLDS.
As with most posters in this thread, Nothing! I do remember on my mission meeting a young Jehovah's Witness who described the feelings of the spirit when he attended their gospel hall meetings. He sounded just like an Lds mishie and I was momentarily perplexed. But I wrote it off as the spirit testifying of Christ. It wasn't till I had been inactive for a number of years that I could view the church from the outside and I didn't like what I saw. I guess that was cos I had lost duh spirut
"I am a totally corrupt, disgusting, self infatuated LYING worm, who expects you to do the dirty work of THE church, which I really do not believe in, while I soak up all of the benefits, and then you will be left destitute for your service and sacrifice for which we feel absolutely no gratitude"
and it would have to be the PRofit of THE (MORmON) Church who said it, mostly with his actions.
Meet MORmON PRofit Gordon BS Hinckley. Welcome to my exit from the MORmON cult, of which "my" mission was the beginning of.
Part of the LDS system is to ensure at every step that Mormons are never left alone. They are always tied to the group. In the mission system this is accomplished by requiring them to be accompanied by a companion every second. This arrangement allows for continuous monitoring of their every thought especially any intrusion of negative information about Mormonism. So there is no chance for anybody to say anything that can "awaken" the missionary.
There was to much social pressure not to go, so nothing. And going opened my mind to what the world is truly like, and gave me the ticket out of the morg. So in the end it worked out. Plus, I have the added bonus of having been on a mission, which infuriates people when you get into a discussion about religion with Mormons.
Yes, the facts would have persuaded me. The real question is though, whether the facts would be enough to persuade me to leave the peer pressure and also the community at that age.
There is a genuine risk i'd have stayed purely through immaturity and optimism (hope that answers will emerge and i had nowhere else to go where i felt as comfortable).
I think with the information, you can make people logically aware of the truth. However, there exists a strong wall of emotional acceptance that separates the logical truth of something from the practical application of that knowledge.
We all know there is nothing under the bed and there are no ghosts. Yet how many logical people would sleep in a reputedly haunted house alone?
I suspect it is more than just the facts that will help people wake up. I also feel the church actually helps questioning members wake up when it threatens and oppresses. It makes the splinter septic. It turns a pin prick into a dangerous sore.
If you are getting nothing out of the community and it is not working for you then the facts alone could be the persuader. IMO very few people are at a point where they are able to use logical and evidence alone to decide their future. Many of us are far more influenced by other factors that we like to admit, or are even aware exist.
I don't think it's a good idea for missionaries to deconvert. They are in a dangerous place for that. Their physical well being depends upon them being TBM. Their only "friends", fellow missionaries, are the most hardcore TBMs you can find. Their families are paying huge sums of money for them to be out there. Going home early is a social disgrace for them and for their families. Even medical dismissal is treated as less than honorable; leaving for apostasy would be scandalous and seriously damage their parents.
A mission can be where the seeds of apostasy are planted. I learned several things on my mission that lead to me leaving 5 years after I got back:
1) The temple is creepy and not the ultimate experience worth sacrificing everything to enter 2) The church motivates people through guilt 3) The church is cheap and treats its missionaries poorly 4) While the church honors missionaries publicly, they act like they are doing missionaries a great favor to the actual missionaries 5) Being an RM doesn't mean you are a good person. There are a lot of jerks as missionaries. Jason Brown was in my mission and now is on America's Most Wanted list. 6) There are lots of people out there who have different ideas and beliefs from Mormons and their lives are going just as well or better 7) The LDS Church is more interested in numbers than people 8) The French are nominal Catholics, but deep down they are Existentialists 9) The LDS prophets have not had anything close to a revelation in a long, long time. It's like bragging about having a golden goose who never lays eggs 10) There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in Mormon philosophy.
It wasn't until a few years later that I learned enough about history, life and had enough experience to piece it all together and leave.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2015 09:38AM by axeldc.
I had a few head scratching incidences on my mission. But nothing would have persuaded me it wasn't true. I just put things on the shelf. There was no time to think deeply because every minute was planned for and occupied with study, prayers, activity, etc.
One time while street contacting near a university, a student stopped and talked with me. He was my peer and a sympathetic type person. He and I read the first pages of the BoM where JS describes getting the plates. This man stopped and asked me in a Socratic way, not preaching or judging, just asked me in a measured way if I believed in Angels and golden books. I swallowed and thought for a second and then my training kicked in and I bore testimony of the BoM like I had been taught to in a foreign language (practically rote memorization of sounds until I became fluent). I remember that pause and my cognitive dissonance. Standing there, in the street, people passing by who were happy and fulfilled, and I was offering a crackpot story about Angels, stone boxes, and gold books.
Nothing. When I decided to go on a mission I was an uber TBM I was so blue that I have even pooed little BoM's. I served in the bible belt and I had a lot of things to think and ponder about but I put it all on my shelf.I had some very good talks with Christians of different denominations and every doubt that rose was canned and put on my shelf. But they were a good point to start my way out, after I was back home.
I agree with the thoughts expressed above that a de-conversion of the missionary is unlikely to take place while they are in the midst of the mission experience. Going that far would be difficult, and as mentioned, possibly dangerous for that individual.
Looking back there were a few experiences that opened my mind to new possibilities, and stuck with me.
1. People didn't need the LDS Church to be good. I had to wonder what value added it would have for some of these people to join a religion so far outside their cultural perspective. Although most people we met were atheist or agnostic, the people who were religious were generally more reserved in their claims and embraced uncertainty as a companion to faith.
2. Exposure to free-thinking Mormons cracked the door open a bit. We occasionally had breakfast with one of the former co-editors of "Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought." He was a visiting professor at the University, who gently engaged us on some controversial LDS-related topics like the denial of the priesthood to men of black African descent; why men can be sealed to two or more women, but women can't be sealed to two or more men; and occasional light jibes about Joseph Fielding Smith and Boyd K. Packer. This was coming from a sort-of safe source (the Gospel Doctrine teacher in the branch).
The people at the edges of Mormonism can help an entrenched person think more broadly than the narrow confines of brethren approved thoughts. I don't think his intention was to get us out of Mormonism, just to help us think more critically--probably just a habit for a professor confronted with young minds. But if a non-Mormon or ex-Mormon had confronted us on these subjects in a more direct or confrontational manner, I might have just gotten defensive.
3. Obedience = Success--or not. Our leaders would constantly link obedience to success, but it seemed that the rain fell on the just and the unjust alike. There were some rebel missionaries, who had baptisms; some relatively obedient people who did not, and every other possibility. It just seemed like the extroverted salesman types were the best at getting people in--even if they had absolutely no understanding of Mormonism. You had to wonder if this was really God's way.
On my mission while tracting, a very nice man engaged us in conversation. I took his being open to be a sign that he was a "golden contact" and immediately started fervently bearing my testimony.
The usual happened--he asked how I knew, was so sure,and I answered with the whole 'read the BoM and pray and receive the witness of the Holy Ghost' routine.
He then said to me, "I don't doubt that you felt something, but how do you know it was not just something you worked yourself up into?"
He had me. On a very deep level I allowed myself to to realize for a split second that he was right.
Still, I had been the ideal candidate for the brainwashing and his comment wasn't enough to make an honest person of me, and I just buried that and continued on missionarying away. So I have to say, "nothing."
Years later when I did realize that I had never felt anything, I wished I could have gone back and thanked him for trying.
Nothing. My mission was prior to the internet. On a few occasions I heard about issues with the church, but I simply dismissed these issues as anti-mormon lies. And I did not have a way to validate them.
My mission was ALSO the beginning of the end for me...thank "GOD"!!!
Two weeks into my mission my Senior Comp and i were confronted with the "stone in the hat" scenario from a philosophy professor at a local college.
Of course we pooh-poohed it as typical "anti-mormon" crap and giggled at him under our breath as we left his home.
On a come-back appointment he showed us the same info out of a book that in thinking back now might have been "No Man Knows My History" or similar.
Then when i was working in the Mission Office i took the "opportunity" to have 2 separate individual PPI's with 2 GA's who were our Regional Reps.
Both Hartman Rector Jr and Charles A. Didier made me "feel the Spirit" by lying directly into my face and saying that indeed the "rock in the hat" scenario was nothing more than an anti-Mormon lie.
That experience with 2 bald-face lying GA's along with many more similar experiences of working in a Mission office and actually seeing the inner workings of LDS Inc (a.k.a) The Real Estate Acquisition Company that masquerades as a "Church" entity is why i essentially "lost my religion" on the plane trip home.
Although it took a 2-year mission to do it i am grateful that it happened that way and i didn't invest any more time in the useless charade and grand play-acting that is so much a part of the fraud of Mormonism.
The information presented wouldn't have done a damn thing. On the other hand, the person presenting the facts would have made all the difference. I ran into the problems with the BoA in my early twenties. But because I was told by someone who was obviously "angry" and was spreading the work of satan I put it on my shelf.