DW and I saw the Nutcracker earlier this week. It was a great performance put on by a local ballet company. I like to pride myself on coming up with great date night ideas, but credit for this one goes to our stake president who recently emailed the members asking them to go support one of our own "lovely ladies" - a dancer for the company. The stake president and his wife has previous attended; giving nothing but glowing reviews. It's also my understanding that the dancer is quite active with in her ward.

She was amazing as was the rest of the company and the orchestra. It goes without saying that a modern ballerina's outfit is not exactly garment-friendly. What I wasn't expecting was that she had a part in the Arabian Coffee number, complete with "I Dream of Jeannie" attire and plenty of belly button. Endowment or not, I feel would be considered too provocative to most members.

I left there thinking to myself that a lot of things that "successful" Mormons do are given a free pass. I doubt the Marriott family received much slack for its high-margin alcohol and (until recently) pornography sales as long as the tithing checks continued to flow. I'm sure that if any Exmo movie star would still claim to be an active member, they could continue living their worldly lifestyles. Is this dancer another case of being "set apart" because they could be a public face of the successful tribe?

Amazing, beautiful dancer - if you happen to be reading this forum, my wife and I would like to invite you over for dinner!

Yes! Exactly!

The modesty double standard was always so curious to me! Either it's "modest" or not. the arabian dancer outfit is especially interesting.

I always got a kick out of ward swimming parties too - where all of a sudden - all of the endowed members of the ward were suddenly in one place - showing their shoulders (gasp!), thighs, a little cleavage with those one piece swim suits and bare chests for the men. But then on Sundays they would never dream of wearing anything even half that revealing.

The Mormon dancers from the islands really know how to shake it in their grass skirts and coconut bras. No long johns for them!

However, don't you dare wear a two piece down to the beach.

I thought whitney carson got married in the temple this last summer?

I've seen a number of people from Utah on Dancing With The Stars and So You Think You Can Dance. Some are definitely Mormon and some of the costumes show plenty of skin. Even though there is a huge focus on modesty, it doesn't seem to be a concern for these highly trained and very talented Mormon dancers. There are some that are Mormon that are now inactive. Whitney Carson is a young pro dancer and her fiance is a recently returned missionary so I sounds like she will be having a temple wedding. Will her costumes become less revealing once she is endowed? Who knows. Early on in the show they had a dancer that was Mormon and she converted a producer on the show and they got married. Her costumes were generally less revealing than the others.

What they wear doesn't bother me but I am surprised that I don't hear my TBM family complaining that what they wear isn't modest.

I just want to say that the Arabian dance number is the best mommy porn ever. I can't stop thinking about the show I saw last weekend. Perfect date night!

What one wears on the stage is not what one wears to church. It is a costume and without it, frankly that dance would fall on its face. The costumes are very important to the overall tone of the dance and music.

verilyverily Wrote:
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> What one wears on the stage is not what one wears
> to church.

Thanks for pointing that out.

> It is a costume and without it, frankly
> that dance would fall on its face.

"Fall flat on its face." ?

Now let me point something out. IF everybody was like my TBM family, as in being true devoted seven days a week MORmONS, the entire entertainment industry would fall flat on its face, as in basically going out of business/ not being in business. There would NOT be any ballet. There would NOT be any hula dancers, scantily clad or otherwise.
There would not be any Dancing with the Stars TV show. There would not be any cheerleaders scantily clad or other wise, at BYU or anywhere else. There would not be any collegiate sports, or high school sports, or professional sports, and there would not be any Olympic games. Which would be good because that would preclude any female gymnasts running and jumping around in form fitting revealing outfits, and divers and swimmers going around in obscenely revealing bathing suits. There would not be any ballet dancers. There probably would not be any TVs, or computers. But thankfully computers are beneficial for doing genealogy. There would not be any super bowl, or world series, or NBA playoffs. There would not be any rock and roll or music concerts, besides the ones put on by the MORmON tabernacle choir. There would not be any hotels, or cruise ships.
or airliners, although airliners have been helpful in transporting missionaries. There might be some Osmonds but they would not be any more well known or prosperous than any other MORmON members. WHO has time or money for that kind of flippant self gratifying frivolity when they are consumed with Truly devoutly living the MORmON gospel ? When a person is living the MORmON gospel, they do not have time or money for those kinds of things. They do not have time or money for doing anything except trying to make living, trying to pay for all of their endless church obligations and trying to perform their church callings and duties. A personal hobby? That is what doing genealogy and going to the temple is for.

> The costumes
> are very important to the overall tone of the
> dance and music.

Costumes? You might get to wear a costume IF the ward is putting on a play. Dance? Permitted once a year at the ward Gold and Green Ball. Music ? would not it be theoretically possible to dance to hymns instead of that racy Strauss waltz music, or would that be too disrespectful to the hymns?

In a truly devout MORmON world, a person is either a faithful latter day saint or they are not, Indulging in non gospel related activities is a frivolous waste of time IF not an outright sin. The instant that a person takes off their garments for anything other than bathing, then a person is not a latter day saint, and there was time when measures where taken to be only partially unclad in the holy garment even while bathing.

Being a ballerina ? That women just DQed herself as a good member of THE church.

As a musician who has performed the Nutcracker and other ballets many times in the orchestra, I can say with some resolve that the Arabian dance in the Nutcracker has music designed (by Tchaikovsky) to represent the Romantic period's idea of Arabia. It does in fact do that IMO with the use of the scales, tempo, mood etc.
I have never seen it performed with costumes that the CULT would approve of because as I said above, this dance needs these particular costumes to make the dance some alive as it should. And yes they are skimpier than some of the other ballet dances in other parts of the ballet but so what. This dance requires that!
I have several friends who are ballet dancers. I don't know what the audience is thinking, but believe me the guy dancer performing the Arabian dance are not thinking about how sexy the ballerina's midriff is. Ballet is difficult to say the least. It requires very intense concentration and tremendous skill. Thinking about the strength it requires on the part of the man dancer is phenomenal. Football players, eat your hearts out. Ballet dancers reveal tremendous strength and do it all GRACEFULLY.
If CULT members are so focused on the midriff showing, they completely miss the skill, the intense beauty and the art of it. But then CULT members miss alot being continually judgmental.
The Arabian dance is and always will be one of my favorites!
This link is one of the best performances I have ever seen of it. These dancers are also gymnasts and SO GRACEFUL! Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sEgjXxjxIw

Yes, I thoroughly enjoyed that! Thanks V

I think you could read this situation either way. The way I see it, Mormons understand the difference between wearing a costume for a performance and dressing provocatively when a more modest choice might be in order. If all those Utah dancers refused to wear dance costumes that weren't garment friendly, would you be judging them for being inflexible? There is a difference between hypocrisy and discretion.

Pista Wrote:
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> I think you could read this situation either way.

Well that is what you were thinking ....on your own, with out the guidance of THE spirit. THE spirit has obviously abandoned you as you have not given proper heed to THE advice given to members by THE breathUrine.


> The way I see it, Mormons understand the
> difference between wearing a costume for a
> performance and dressing provocatively when a more
> modest choice might be in order.

Not the MORmONS in my family, you either adhere to THE standards of THE church every day of the week, or you do not, and then Satan takes over your soul so you can not "see" things properly.
Guess what has happened to you.

> If all those Utah
> dancers refused to wear dance costumes that
> weren't garment friendly, would you be judging
> them for being inflexible?

NOT the MORmONS in my family. They would be judging them for allowing themselves to be caught in a situation where there is encouragement to compromise churchin' standards. When in doubt, just cut it (the inappropriate activity) out. ......Was there some point that you were hoping to make??????

> There is a difference
> between hypocrisy and discretion.

What the Hell are you talking about? You are obviously suffering for the advanced stages of being taken over by Satan.

I have no doubt that the Mormons in your family are how you have described them. That does not mean they are representative of all Mormons. The Mormons in my family -- which is very large and goes back to the earliest days of the religion -- fall all over the spectrum.

Your experience is real, but it's not the only one. If you continue to universally apply your family's behavior to all Mormons, you will likely be surprised and confused a lot.

go ahead and tell me that where my MORmON family ended up is not where THE MORmON leaders of THE MORmON church continually point their MORmON members.

IF your family ended being less than ideal MORmONS, it AIN'T because that is the way it was supposed to be according to THE direction of MORmON leaders and THE guidelines of THE church.

The point is: I NEVER attended a church meeting where a MORmON leader got up and said that THE members were taking THE rules way too seriously, that members were trying too hard and getting worn out, that members should start cutting themselves some slack. IF you have then just let me know right now, because I really do want to hear it, and that would be a big surprise. Because, it was very rare that members could get any commendation even for two seconds for doing a good job even when they were doing a lot, BUT the thing that was always certain was that MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE was going to be asked for regardless of how much had already been given.

If your family ended up being more normal in a non MORmON context because they were less than absolutely faithful in a MORmON context, then do not expect my MORmON family to extend very much dispensation to your not quite so MORmON family. The direction that MORmONISM was pointed in is determined by looking at where MORmONISM said it was pointed to, NOT by averaging out the paths and subsequent locations where various sub flocks and stray individuals (hideous apostates) managed to wander off to. The direction of MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE rigid puritanical adherence to the professed standards was THE thing being preached over THE pulpit. Correlation was a measure implemented to sharpen THE focus of that aim on that intended direction of THE church.

Yah, I get why MORmON members wanted to take a break from their MORmON religion on days in the middle of the week and often did take a break -It is because it is a stifling suffocating micro managing dictatorial cult, but that does not mean there were formal allowances made for such breaks / indiscretions, it just means that people failed to live their religion on a full time basis because it was too rigid. I get it that certain people were advocating taking a break, at least personally, with their actions when they broke THE rules, but that is not THE message that was being delivered over THE pulpit.

IF you do not think that rigidness really existed in THE church then ask around and see how many people that had been ex commed ever made it back into the good graces of THE church enough to ever be given a vanity leadership position again -anything above counselor in a priestDUD quorum presidency.

"There is a difference between hypocrisy and discretion." ?

maybe there is and maybe there is not, but what ever the issue really is in any given situation, it is going to be far more problematic for MORmONS to deal with unless they just out right condemn the substandard situation and then stick to their MORmON guns, than for non MORmONS/ ex MORmONS who are not compelled to take such rigid action or risk being viewed as phonies, just as you conceded with your acknowledgement that your not so MORmON family falls all over the grid in terms of adherence and devotion, which makes them more pliable on such matters, which also begs the question, WHY did you issue your initial challenge to the ex mos of this board AS IF ex mos just can not resist attacking MORmONS for being inflexible. .......OH WAIT, that does happen, largely because MORmONS are so damn rigid and inflexible even when MORmONS have to be hypocrites to do it!!!! Such hypocrisy is NOT typical of ex Mos but of MORmONS, but then again with the way you described your (not so) MORmON family, and the supposed difference between hypocrisy and discretion, you have a hard time telling which is which on either account. My MORmON family does not have that problem. They know that a member is either living THE standards of THE church, especially keeping their sacred garments on 7 days a week, 24 hours a day, 60 minutes an hour, 60 seconds a minute, or they are not. For what ever reason, an endowed member being out of their sacred garments in a public setting is a lapse in faithfulness. Funny thing, I think that is EXACTLY what Joe and Brigham intended when they came up with the things. FTR I am definitely outside of THE church on that matter. Compared to Joe and Brigham, In a MORmON context, what your averaged out semi apostate MORmON family thinks does not matter so much, especially when it comes to lining out where THE church was supposed to go/end up. . But if some of them do attend the ballet then the ballet does appreciate their support because TBMs, Apostates,ex Mos, and non members all presently use the same monetary form/ currency. However LD$ Inc fervently wishes that they had received that money instead.

To me, it shows that many members don't TRULY believe that the dress standards, or wearing of garments, are LITERALLY important.

To me, it is similar to drinking champaign at a wedding.

The older one's church family history doesn't necessarily mean anything. The newest members are often the strictest because they CHOSE to join.

Then there are ppl like Marie Osmond...

The most recent for the strength of youth pamphlet actually allows for lower modesty standards when appropriate for things like dance. And garments aren't currently required for working out. As a missionary I was told on my list of things to bring to have other underwear for exercising.

But then ultra conservative TBMs like my mom get uncomfortable with that and say that you should wear your garments anyway and find a way to dance in modest attire or not at all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2015 01:51AM by jdawg333.

but... What about sex?

U know... only when parents are wearing during 'the act' can have kids 'truly' BIC!

GNPE Wrote:
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> but... What about sex?

MORmON ASSpostHOLE John Henry Smith was very clear on this matter:
Sex with in a marriage with out the specific intention to create a pregnancy is a sin which has the same gravity as adultery. go just past the 3 minute mark in the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYsi-r1amY0

and remember: MORmONS are not weird, PRofit Gordon BS Hinckley said so.

Also want to add in that this SP a) once counseled a member to not become a firefighter because it would require him to work on the sabbath, and b) encouraged a member to quit a well paying marketing job because one of the accounts was a tobacco brand.

THAT is the MORmON (IN)consistency that we know and love. You can bet your ass that THE church never rejected any of that offering money due to it coming from questionable sources. Just ask Brother Bill "Porno and a Book of MORmON in every room" Marriott even though he will just ignore you.

As other posters have noted, the church makes allowances for costumes and uniforms etc., whether it's Marie Osmond dancing or BYU athletes performing. Years ago, we had a ward talent night where a girl of 15 or 16 danced a ballet number in typical tights. Nobody raised an eyebrow at all.

Upon reading this thread, it reminded me of a notable Mormon ballerina who had been in my little branch in Montgomery, Alabama, in the mid-'60s, when I was 8 or 10 years old. Her name was Leigh Provancha. She was a year or two older than I, and she had a little sister named Erin who was in my class. I hadn't thought of her for many years. I just googled her name and found this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q46eXNG5bZE

I had no idea that there were actual exceptions. I imagined it was simply something that was tolerated, but that members were to be counseled away from careers and activities that would cause them to deviate from "Gospel Standards." Thanks.

I imagine that not all occasions that a costume is appropriate would be tolerated.

Our ward Halloween party flyers always came with a bold disclaimer: "All costumes MUST adhere to Gospel Standards."

"Our ward Halloween party flyers always came with a bold disclaimer: "All costumes MUST adhere to Gospel Standards."

Would that include a naked Laban carrying his head around?

As a young Ironic priesthood boy I have to say that I was sexually aroused by the ballet costumes--the guys. I stared with BIG eyes at those tight tights with the amazing bulge. I couldn't believe my eyes.