Me: Hi, I'm Mormon, or my family is for the past 5 generations and 2 more behind me and I've never really taken it seriously until now. I just have one question, What did the Prophet have to say about 9-11?

C: Well, I'm honestly not sure. There have got to be times when President Monson thinks of those things and ponders about what's to be done about them. That's just my guess though.
What do you think?

Me: What does it matter what I think? I'm not the one claiming I'm led by a Prophet. What do YOU think?

God's just been completely silent ever since 9-11?
No revelations revealed to his Mouthpiece 14 years into America's Longest War?
God has nothing to say to his children about how to avoid the greatest existential threat to humanity?

How is it possible for him to be a Prophet?

C: I am not sure what your point is in coming here if you think the church has been silent on violence and death, you are very much so mistaken. We are going to get going, but have a great day Bob.

Me: I just asked a simple question.,

THe chat session has ended.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2015 05:21PM by koriwhore.

Try to pick a fight by asking stupid questions, the missionary recognizes this, and so he hangs up on you. That's life. Did you learn your lesson?

Got nothing else to do?

I want an honest answer from a Mormon for once to my serious question, What did the mouthpiece of God have to say about the worst terrorist attack on American soil, besides MMM?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2015 04:48PM by koriwhore.

Yeah, like missionaries have any answers about anything, much less honest ones.

Apparently not....(I meant this as a reply to saviorself).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2015 07:25AM by zero.

Another poster gave what I thought was really good advice for discussing issues with TBMs. This posters advice was that it is usually counter productive to out-and-out confront a TBM about their beliefs because the TBM will just shut down and dig in. The better way is to just ask about problem areas as a genuine concern and see if the TBM has an answer. It might get the TBM thinking, but even if it doesn't the TBM will at least have an understanding of why you don't believe.

Correct, this is how you get a productive missionary chat:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1726105,1726105#msg-1726105

Hinckley didn't have much to say before the Iraq invasion in '03 either, other than to say he didn't know what was coming, and to heavily imply in GC that enlistment in the military was a very good thing to do. Gordie was always ready to serve his masters.

hello Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> good thing to do. Gordie was always ready to serve
> his masters.

Except in the instance when it meant having to cope with the drudgery of actually doing missionary work himself. But don't worry, papa Hinckley got that deal fixed up for Gordie right away. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIkVNWHT-IA

Very true, smirkorama. Young Gordie was looking out for number one, and your point illustrates that LDSInc. was the family business, but not his true "master".

"Prophet" Hinckley was eager to do the bidding of his "true masters", in New York City. Military propaganda for the LDS faithful? Yes sir, sure, no problem...

At some point calling the missionaries and yanking their chains starts to sound like Bart Simpson's phone pranks. Mildly amusing the first two or three times, but then the novelty wears off.

What are the missionaries going to do? Obviously, try to defend the church until they decide you are not persuadable and then cut off the conversation. I'm not sure what the point is in reiterating this process over and over again.

We all have issues with the morg, but we need to remember that they have the right/freedom to practice their religion.

Think about this way. The Catholic Church has done far worse things than TSCC has ever done. The Catholic Church used to burn and torture apostates in the medieval times. ("Nobody ever suspects the Spanish Inquisition!") But we don't go harassing a Catholic priest asking him why the Catholic Inquisition placed Gallio under house arrest for saying the earth revolved around the sun.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2015 08:54AM by zero.

Even the priest wouldn't try to defend that.

I don't believe Koriwhore has put anyone under house arrest, burnt anyone at the stake or prevented them from practising their religion. He is merely questioning them to try to get them to think a bit about their beliefs. Also I doubt Koriwhore ever speaks to the same missionaries so as far as I am concerned great job Koriwhore keep on keeping on it.

While LDS DO have the right to worship (freedom of religion),
Koriwhore ALSO has the right (maybe the obligation) to question even challenge the tenants of any religion (freedom of speech).

I think the questions to the missionaries were quite valid. The LDS church claims to be the only church on earth with a living prophet. It would follow that the living prophet would have important council about the troubling times we live in. Otherwise, what is the point of having a living prophet?

When I was still a practicing Mormon. I remember being saddened, disturbed, and frightened when Ezra Taft Benson's health was so bad and he would hardly ever speak much in conference. I felt sort of like I was left on my own in a hostile world with no guidance.

The catholic allusion doesnt work for two reasons...firstly most catholics havent a dam clue about their history either...and not many here wasted most of a life time and a boatload of tithing shoring up the catholic church...the attendance at a mormon church has far more strings attached...including owning you...body boots and britches..and holding your family hostage if you digress from the plan...that gawd is such a kidder

Try telling a Catholic priest or nun that they have wasted their lives to THE church. Have ever heard of the Catholic order Opus Dei? There was a book about it a few years back.


But if you disagree about the Catholic Church then let's consider judism, Islam, Hindu, Scientology or any other religion. Is the Mormon church different than them?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2015 11:51AM by zero.

Yes, they are different...if measured by the number and the absurdity of their claims.

Another thing to be aware of is that these young'ns are so wet behind the ears that they probably don't even know what 911 is. And don't care. They don't know what it is for a brief moment to wonder if the end of democracy is on the doorstep and the end of the world and "profits" had arrived. That's what 911 was, a wake up call.

God good even if I was 20 years younger you would have just made me feel old.

Got to go now I've got some coffins to dodge.

I would have assumed you were looking for a fight and done the same thing.

At least the Pope speaks about the issues of the day. TSM can only tell us to shop in the mall.

The Catholic church has also said they were wrong about many things in the past including Galileo and the Crusades.

I can tell you exactly what Monson thinks of 9 1 1.

Dial it every time he's fallen and can't get up!

You would have thought they would have known that in advance.

your church is morally bankrupt and you know it.

fuck me religion is so easily falsifiable it isn't worth the effort.

Just recognize that the mishies are challenged by any substantive questions of early church history and teachings we weren't taught growing up LDS.

Most of them are barely out of high school, and haven't begun college. I wouldn't realistically expect these young mishies to be equipped to handle political commentary on the world issues we grapple with today, or be prepared to be mouthpieces for the church hierarchichal leadership. They're no more prepared to be spokespeople for the church than you or I would be. In all actuality, you know much more than they do. Maybe it's for the best not pretend to let them believe that you don't know what their leaders believe (or not.) Because you know more than they do anyway.

The one department that might attempt to answer those questions conceivably would be the church PR department. Although they don't typically grant interviews to us sarcastic ex-Mos, because to them it would be considered a frivolous use of their time since it doesn't involve real media outlets who will be broadcasting their public announcements &/or press releases.

I cut the young mishies lots of slack, because most of them are still quite young, impressionable, and immature. They need time to grow up, and become who they're going to be with or without the cult's influence.

What good you may be able to yield would maybe better off with a hello I'm available to discuss your beliefs if you'd ever like to question them, with a former Mormon believer who found my way out of the labyrinth.

:)

I find this whole thing about how to deal with the missionaries interesting.

To outsiders, they are the most visible part of the Mormon Church, unless like me you live in line of sight of a huge Mormon Temple built on the hill and lit up like a Roman candle at night.

To Mormons, they seem to have this weird non-authority. The missionaries are sent to talk to people and are treated with some minor importance, while at the same time being completely dismissed by Mormons because of their young age and cluelessness.

But the Mormon Church sets these kids up not to be taken seriously by non-Mormons as well by calling them Elders. Looking at some kid that might not even be shaving regularly who calls himself Elder Whatever is just jarring and rediculous.

The entire setup seems designed not to treat these young men as young men who are maturing into real adulthood. It even discourages outsiders from doing so. It also sounds like the MPs are specifically trained to do everything they can to prevent missioionaries from being treated like adults.

It seems that nobody takes these guys seriously as human beings at a special developmental time in their lives when they are specifically being discouraged from going through the developmental steps that their peers are going through by way of work, education, the military, etc.

Perhaps none of what I wrote makes much sense, but I am just trying to put my finger on the big picture that bothers me about the missionaries (aside from their pestering people).

I too, would love to hear an honest answer to your question, koriwhore! However, I think that is very unlikely to happen, because:

1- (More detail for you, NeverMoJohn, follows at the end), You are chatting with 18 - 22 year old kids, most of whom have been brainwashed since birth, and never exposed to an independent thought or encouraged to actually think, much less outside the box. Plus they are living in a state of institutional coercion that precludes independent thinking. The poor kids can't help it, they can't help themselves.

2- There is no answer. The entire idea that the Mormon "prophet, seer & revelator" is actually in communication with God, is a complete fiction, perpetuated by the Mormon heirarchy in order to control people and gain financially.

3 - All of the above pretty much covers it. Mormon history, not the Mormonized version, but the entirety of it, makes it pretty obvious that it was yet another scam religion of the late 19th Century founded by a pedophile scam artist. It has been perpetuated by an organization that is focused on profit and has no problem taking advantage of vulnerable people for financial gains. That it has since gained cult status by virtue of the institutional brainwashing and the intra-organizational pressure, allowing lost souls to gain a sense of purpose, however misguided, just proves the point.

About the missionaries:
Ok,I am multi-generation LDS. It's my family culture and heritage. I have 39 cousins, at least 12 of whom I know are no longer active and yet only 2 other than me and 3 of my siblings have had the courage to come out with it. It's a serious family pressure and not easy to leave - major pressure in ways I cannot even describe.

I went to BYU and I served a full-time mission. I was a scripture scholar and I am not tooting my own horn, but I knew my stuff. I am now an academic research scholar and I learned the initial skills from studying and cross-referencing the scriptures on my mission. Of course, that is also a major factor in why I left - I am a scholar and I studied and I found the truth, which is not LDS approved.

However, when I was a naive, idealistic 20 year old, trying to be a good person and looking for a reason not to marry my boyfriend when he got back from his mission, I full on drank the kool-aid. I wanted it to be true, I wanted to feel like I was doing something important. I wanted to be acknowledged positively and not just for being a wife and mother as an LDS woman (had I only known the mission field was NOT the place to achieve that, but that's another story). The obvious answer was to go on a mission.

So I did, and the stories I could tell, well, let's just say that although I don't think anyone should encourage the missionaries, don't be too mean. They are mostly confused kids desperately grabbing onto something that they think-hope will give them purpose. They are living in a cult that brainwashes them and subjects them to incredible institutional pressures to conform. Not to mention the sales pressure. They have numers to meet & those who don't meet those goals are shamed, big time. Those who don't leave during or immediately after they reach the mission field will deal with difficult choices at some point in the future, many leave shortly after returning from their missions.

Many are choosing to live the lie, without actively acknowledging it, hoping desperately that they will get divine confirmation at some point soon. Others will leave at some point later in life when they realize it's just not making sense. Of course, at that point, with a family and responsibilities, it's even more complicated. Some just put on the blinders and continue to drink the kook-aid. Some by choice, some because it's just easier. It's their choice.

My point, don't be too hard on the poor,young, innocent missionaries the LDS church chooses to bear the brunt of their publicity (and trust me, that pressure is fully realized by the misshies!).

When they pester people, and yes , they do, they really believe, or are trying to believe, that they are saving people. That's how they do it. Think of it as the Mormon, very misguided, version of the Peace Corp. An attempt to help others, and find yourself. Without actually having a chance to do either, because of institutional fraud.

Honestly, it just makes me so sad every time I see them.

I was a missionary too. And I empathize. That's why I ask serious questions of the Missionaries, because most of the time people want to avoid serious questions, they like their comfortable cocoons they've chosen. I just want to see them fly free like metamorphasized butterflies.
Thing is I wasn't a kid on my mission. I'd already been to college, Europe, Africa, all over the US. I wasn't always Mormon, even though I was born in the church, I didn't start taking it seriously until I was 20, then served a mission when I was 21-23, got married at 25 and the divorced from my ExMo cougar wife at 50.
I WISH somebody had asked me serious questions on my mission, somebody who knew WTF they were talking about, like me, now. I know Mormonism a hell of a lot better than the Mormons trying to sell it to me.
I just think it's ironic that Mormons maintain the world's largest army of 88,000 missionaries to go out and convince people they should sing the praises of Joseph's Myth, knowing full well the guy had sex with other men's wives and teenage daughters and admitting it publicly, yet we can't question them about that or we're meanies?
I can't ask them a simple question like "What did God have to say about 9-11 through your prophet?" or I'm being mean?
They're adults.
THey made a conscious decision to defend the church.
Perhaps asking them to think instead of relying on cliches is too much and might give them PTSD and they'll react by being even more deeply entrenched in their delusions.
But I hope not.
It's not really for the Missionary's benefit, it's for my benefit. To see just how delusional I'd have to be to defend this bullshit, when it's more important to come out and make an official statement about how evil gay babies are, yet say nothing about how evil ISIS is, or that it was wrong for JS and BY to rape little girls and other men's wives.
WTF?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2015 02:10AM by koriwhore.

I think these hard questions are equally beneficial for the missionaries longer term. This is a learning process. Sometimes the most obvious question can lead people to think and if it's never asked, then they likely wouldn't have thought to ask it themselves.

A RFM Poster here (Darks Sparks) once told me in an email he thought the bible stories in the old testament to be just nomadic camp fire tales.

That comment triggered my already sceptical thought process and finally, soon after, I ditched the whole idea that the bible (Old testament at least) was anything more than that.

We all know for a fact that Monson has no more prophetic power or insider divine knowledge than does a voodoo priest, but ordinary Mormons just haven't quiet solved it yet.


PS I would have a go myself but the canned responses like 'pray about it', 'have you read the book of Mormon' or 'I know it's true and you can know too if you are sincere..' just raises my blood pressure.lol



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2015 09:13AM by Zeezromp.

I'd have hung up on you too.