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Posted by: Tom Phillips ( )
Date: January 14, 2016 04:54AM

From a book titled "Doubt is their Product".

"Doubt is our product," a cigarette executive once observed, "since it is the best means of competing with the 'body of fact' that exists in the minds of the general public. It is also the means of establishing a controversy." Michaels argues that for decades cigarette manufacturers knew that their product was hazardous to people's health, but hired mercenary scientists who "manufactured uncertainty by questioning every study, dissecting every method, and disputing every conclusion". In doing so the tobacco industry waged a campaign that "successfully delayed regulation and victim compensation for decades"

With TSCC saying "doubt your doubts" is this now their 'product'? From the above quote "since it is the best means of competing with the 'body of fact' that exists in the minds of the general public".

That is exactly what TSCC does through its apostles, newsroom, PR firm and apologists. Their main dupes being TBMs with the general public as secondary dupes.

As the Book of Mormon and the First Vision (both of which have to be true for TSCC to be true) are utterly indefensible, TSCC are using the tactics invented by the tobacco industry to counter solid facts.

This description in a book by Michael Bettancourt:-

"The creation of systemic unknowns where any potential "fact" is always already countered by an alternative of apparently equal weight and value renders engagement with the conditions of reality -- -- contentious and a source of confusion, reflected by the inability of participants in bubbles to be aware of the immanent collapse until after it has happened"

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2016 05:15AM by Tom Phillips.

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Posted by: caedmon ( )
Date: January 14, 2016 08:00AM

Excellent point. Creating doubt is really their only option. I like the sound of "imminent collapse".

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Posted by: Bamboozled ( )
Date: January 14, 2016 08:09AM

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: January 14, 2016 09:03AM

Without a doubt, they haven't got a prayer. (You may quote me on this.)


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2016 09:03AM by Amyjo.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: January 14, 2016 09:31AM

And the purpose of the essays is to make you doubt that their main product is doubt. "We don't lie and misdirect. See, the essays are honest about our problems. Sort of."

Apologists do nothing but lie and misdirect. Church leaders also have to keep the organization running, so they do that part of the time, and lie and misdirect part of the time.

Propping up a house of cards in a windstorm has to be exhausting and never ending work. No wonder they get cranky.

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Posted by: cricket ( )
Date: January 14, 2016 09:45AM

You said, "Propping up a house of cards in a windstorm has to be exhausting and never ending work. No wonder they get cranky."

Now try this visual: Propping up a house of "Temple Recommends" in a windstorm of "apostasy" has to be exhausting and never ending work. No wonder they get cranky.

The other subtle metaphor regarding doubt being the Morg's product is having a do nothing prophet "Doubting Thomas Monson" at the helm. I'm calling his synchronicity.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: January 14, 2016 11:29AM

Building a white house for God in the middle of a shitstorm of information must include one Hell of a house keeping and cleaning bill.

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: January 14, 2016 10:19AM

The above quote is like holding up a mirror to the Mormon church even if it was meant to be about the cigarette industry.

It has been apparent for years that when the TSCC has no good answer for a question or inconvenient fact that they do two things to get doubts started.

First, someone in authority gives a big long speech throwing in as many impressive words as they can. A lot of people are actually fooled into thinking that they really said something important. Word Salad--nothing more. It works unfortunately to get the doubt started and then they come in with the big finish: Faith.

Second, and "expert" will look at a fact by putting it in a more dim light, turning it upside down, and sideways and backwards to survey it as they squint and then say "We have looked at this and find it has no merit." And people assume that just because it has been approached from every angle that the threatening fact has been debunked. No evidence or reason offered. "We looked at it and found it not to be true," is not proof of anything. "God works in mysterious ways," is a dodge, not a proper answer to anything.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: January 14, 2016 10:29AM

My own experience with this came about after being involved with a (jack) Mormon boyfriend, pseudo-investigating the church, meeting with sister missionaries, etc. I wanted answers to questions about Mormon racism they sisters couldn't answer (and also claimed to be ignorant of) so I went to go see the local bishop. No alternative explanations were offered. To my surprise, he also claimed not to have any knowledge of the "Curse of Cain" doctrine or the "less valiant in the War in Heaven" story or men becoming Gods in Celestial Kingdom. All that was offered was the "Moroni's Promise" quote -- and this man was old enough to have served his mission in 1978! By happenstance the stake president was also there. The obvious obfuscation of these men made it clear to me Mormonism was not a religion with believers in the proper sense but was instead a social construct designed to keep like minded people (and their tithing) in and other people out.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2016 10:51AM by anybody.

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Posted by: NormaRae ( )
Date: January 14, 2016 10:35AM

Excellent observation. Absolutely they are past trying to prove that the church is true. That's why they've settled on "the only way to know is through prayer and good feelings and emotions." Because that will always work for them.

The job of "the bretheren" and the apostles and CES and whoever, now is just to spoon feed the sheeple doubts to counteract their doubts. "here's another card, add that to your house of cards. See, it didn't fall down."

Most of us have been there... slowly and carefully putting one more card on top of the house. We were close to it caving, but still trying to stack em up. We were sure it couldn't cave in because we could never really believe it wasn't true and if it was all just Satan trying to make us think the house was going to fall down, and we bailed, we could be in for an eternity of misery.

Then it happened. Our houses of cards all caved in. And there was no pretending anymore that it could stand. There was no pretending that it was built on any kind of real foundation. There was no pretending like the walls were sturdy. And most of all, there were no cards left to doubt our doubts with. It was obvious. We were positive. All that fear about "what if I'm wrong" left. Gone.

And what do you have when the fear and doubts and guilt is gone for good? A whole new life free from it. And an assurance that no Satanic being is actually controlling your life, no matter how badly the card dealers want to convince you of it. They might convince those people who are still building their own houses, but they can't fool the ones who quit playing the game.

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Posted by: wondercat ( )
Date: January 14, 2016 06:39PM

Great post, NormaRae!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2016 06:39PM by wondercat.

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Posted by: Trails end ( )
Date: January 14, 2016 10:52AM

Excellent deduction Tom...thats a great seems to me that those who bow their head and say yes are those who havent a clue of history or doctine...slept through church ...seminary and most of a mission and right on to high priests group meetings...there is little possibility you can objectively study to any extent without realizing its a long as feelings and reading poorly written fiction are the go to method of enlightenment...bow your head and say yes...oh and ah tithing...sad to say...but the lazy are often those who doubt their doubts

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Posted by: imaworkinonit ( )
Date: January 14, 2016 11:01AM

Doubt, and definitely fear. FEAR is what keeps people from facing and exploring their doubts.

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Posted by: quinlansolo ( )
Date: January 14, 2016 12:32PM

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Posted by: justarelative ( )
Date: January 14, 2016 12:51PM

... when decades ago they described their efforts as being similar to fighting the tobacco companies. This in response to being confronted by those who asked them why they would dedicate so much effort toward exposing the dark side of the Mormon church.


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Posted by: cousin ( )
Date: January 14, 2016 12:59PM

In the movie Ronin Robert Di Nero's character says: "Whenever there is any doubt, there is no doubt."

Whenever there is any doubt" refers to the fact that something spooked him. He might not even be aware of the detail of what it was, but it was based on experience and instinct. When he feels that tug of insecurity, he knows something is wrong. There is no doubt about it.

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Posted by: southern idaho inactive ( )
Date: January 14, 2016 03:36PM

How are they selling "Doubt"?? I didn't realize it was a product you could buy or sell!!

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Posted by: Shummy ( )
Date: January 14, 2016 04:11PM

Well it's kinda like debt.

That cash in your pocket actually represents debt.

Debt is a negotiable commodity.

In that fashion, the bean counters have now monetized mormon doubt.

Clever buggers.

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Posted by: tofino ( )
Date: January 14, 2016 07:28PM

The Church going tbms live in fear of finding out its a lie and then what? Now what do they do? Think and do life without the church? Fear and pride keep members from admitting to themselves they've been bamboozed all their life. But the booby prize is they stay where they are in the controlling cult called Mormonism.

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Posted by: Nevermo4 ( )
Date: January 14, 2016 07:34PM

Ugh yes,vomit!

There is even a new quote circulating,I have seen it on Facebook that basically goes like 'I would rather live my life believing and find out there is no God than live my life as if there is no God and find out there is'.

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Posted by: Eric3 ( )
Date: January 14, 2016 07:47PM

In fact "doubt is our product" was a strategy created by legendary PR firms:

It was a sophisticated PR strategy: you couldn't get anyone to believe that cigarettes were good, but you could get people to doubt the evidence of how bad they were -- and that's all you needed to do to keep tobacco industry profits high for another generation. It was clever. It worked.

What a top PR firm can deliver can be pretty impressive.

Since TSSC hired top PR firm Edelman, we have seen some of those results.

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Posted by: Healed ( )
Date: January 14, 2016 08:03PM

Carl Sagan made an excellent observation why the effective use of doubt is such a powerful counterbalance to fact and reason:

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back." Carl Sagan

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Posted by: elderpopejoy ( )
Date: January 14, 2016 11:28PM

Healed quotes:
> Once you give a charlatan
> power over you, you almost never get it back."
> Carl Sagan

This Carl is a typical charlatan spewing words like "almost never".

Every minute of every day thousands of seekers escape all sorts of cult-scams served up by bloody bamboozlers. God speed 'em.

Screw Edelman... lawyers to the false prophets of COJCOLDS.

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Posted by: zenjamin ( )
Date: January 15, 2016 12:39AM

Excellent quote and most fitting, Healed!

Thanks! :D

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Posted by: smirkorama ( )
Date: January 14, 2016 09:58PM

No, its the same as it has always been -LIES !!!
but the doubt your doubts thing is a new emphasis of the same old MORmON crap.

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Posted by: zenjamin ( )
Date: January 15, 2016 12:37AM

Great OP.

That "doubt your doubts" is even promulgated attests to the corporation's desperate circumstance.

A desperate plea for desperate times.

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Posted by: randyj ( )
Date: January 15, 2016 10:57AM

In a speech titled "The Historicity of The Book Of Mormon," Oaks said:

"Honest investigators will conclude that there are so many evidences that the Book of Mormon is an ancient text that they cannot confidently resolve the question against its authenticity, despite some unanswered questions that seem to support the negative determination. In that circumstance, the proponents of the Book of Mormon can settle for a draw or a hung jury on the question of historicity and take a continuance until the controversy can be retried in another forum."

Like a lawyer defending an obviously guilty client, Oaks is satisfied to achieve a "draw" or a "hung jury" on the issue of the BOM's authenticity. Oaks is like Jim Carrey's character in "Dumb and Dumber": "So you're sayin' there's a chance!"

The church's leaders and apologists know very well that there is no evidence for the BOM's historicity, so they bring up items which will instill "reasonable doubt" in the minds of rank-and-file church members, such as chiasmus and the NHM carving.

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Posted by: Shummy ( )
Date: January 15, 2016 11:09AM

NuHM and number.

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Posted by: perky ( )
Date: January 15, 2016 11:38AM

Totally agree. It's all about doubt and emphasis on uncertainty.

Another similar book is Merchants of Doubt by Namoi Orseskes. She describes the doubts raised by the tabacco cos and "freedom" organizations that are opposed to gov't regulation. She also documents how the same organizations that supported tabacco have blocked action to take care of climate change.

The Mormon Chruch is a Merchant of Doubt.

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Posted by: snowball ( )
Date: January 15, 2016 12:43PM

That's an interesting way to think about it.

This is definitely something to be on the lookout for, and share illustrative examples as "the work" moves forward.

There are all these things that demolish an orthodox, TBM testimony, but apologists want you to hang onto some shred of possibility it may all be true.

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Posted by: Just Passing By ( )
Date: January 18, 2016 03:21AM

Excellent post by everyone. Doubting your Doubt is what the Mormon Church has done for year. Knowing very well that their (Mormon leaders)doctrine is untrue and false. Doubting Your Doubt is all they have.
This would be a great discussion for Mormons who are on the fence to read.

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Posted by: Trails end ( )
Date: January 18, 2016 01:00PM

Great topic great comments...whod a figgered you could use the addiction of religeon and that of tobacco in a cogent thought...both just as toxic...just try to quit either one...i know Id sure be nervous if my modest stipend was dependant on folks quitting...but geez why is it they care....billions...a mall...and enough grass to flatulate 100000 cows...somethings wrong the rusty tub letting out more water than the spring can trickle...i wonder

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: January 22, 2016 03:34PM

Good post.

Investing in cigarette comapnies pays off well too.

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Posted by: maeve ( )
Date: January 22, 2016 04:15PM

“Take faith, for example. For many people in our world, the opposite of faith is doubt. The goal, then, within this understanding, is to eliminate doubt. But faith and doubt aren't opposites. Doubt is often a sign that your faith has a pulse, that it's alive and well and exploring and searching. Faith and doubt aren't opposites, they are, it turns out, excellent dance partners.” Rob Bell from his book "What We Talk about When We Talk about God"

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