Have I been out of the loop for too long? I really DON'T CARE one way or another if there is conclusive DNA evidence to prove the BOM is true- there are far more issues to keep my unbelief from changing. But I'm a bit curious...

This video has been shared by several on FB today, so I finally watched it. The video itself is new but I'm not sure how new the 'evidence' is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mADM3RYKl5Y

I'm not well versed in DNA, but this video seems convincing, with his weepy eyes and all, enough so that if I was a new doubter I may not delve further into this particular issue...

Just wondering. =)

http://mormonstories.org/simon-southerton-dna-lamanites-and-the-book-of-mormon/

The American Indians came across the Bering Straits during the last Ice Age 100,000 years ago. Southerton's DNA evidence only confirms this theory.

The only people who think that American Indians are Jewish are Mormons, desperate for their church not to be discredited.

If you want proof that Southerton was correct, shortly after they exed him, the LDS Church altered JS's Intro to the Book of Mormon so that the Lamanites were not longer the PRIMARY ancestors of the Indians, but among the ancestors. http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/ci_7403990

As for this video, he presents no evidence that undoes anything Southerton did. It's a lot of doublespeak to tell you not to leave the church just because the BoM is fiction.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2016 07:47PM by axeldc.

about 16,000 years ago.

I concur

Ditto. Therefore, it is fact, as borne out by the mouths of 2 or 3 witnesses.

In summary, this is how I understand the issues which he is addressing (someone else please correct me and/or add more details):

The genetic evidence he is referring to does NOT indicate that any Native Americans are descended from Hebrews, but that both Hebrews and some North American Native American populations are descended from a much more ancient population that predates BoM times by many thousands of years. These are points which he conveniently leaves out because they completely destroy BoM chronology, and in a broader sense, the entire chronology the Mormon church teaches in regards to the history of the earth.

By the way, the gentleman in the video is Rodney Meldrum and his apologetic work is at odds with the vast majority of other Mormon apologists. They don't like him one bit!

There's no new evidence in that, it's Rodney Meldrum "repackaging" evidence that shows the BoM story *false,* and pretending it shows it's "true."

Weepy or not, it's a bunch of lies, meant to give hope to the faithful who won't bother to go actually read or understand the DNA studies.

Just go here:

http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com/2013/09/meldrums-x-lineage-good.html

From the above link:

"Subclades X2a and X2g are found exclusively in North America, and have not been observed in Eurasia, Mesoamerica or South America. Likewise, subclades X2b, X2c, X2d, X2e and X2f are absent in the New World but present in Eurasia."

Which alone demolishes Meldrum's argument.

If the Mormon prophet really does talk to God everyday why doesn't he just ask about the DNA problem. Since the prophet apparently has discussions with God all the time, every issue that would cause someone to leave the church should be answered readily. There should never be a point in time where Mormons are wondering what is true and what is not true since they have a man who has direct connection to God. If the prophet can't clear up the hundreds of issues that plague the Mormon church then he is no prophet!

Thank you so much for the links and comments. Simon Southerton is such a great reference, and a bad ass.

Saw that on a friends Facebook page.
http://ldsmissionaries.com/dna-evidence-book-of-mormon/

In addition to the above, there is:
"What will happen if the USA turns away from God?"

and
"Incredible LDS Conversion of Vatican Librarian"

I didn't bother to watch any of them, but is looks like the page is an LDS version of the "National Enquirer."

"is looks like the page is an LDS version of the "National Enquirer."

But instead of the Bat Boy, they have the Vat Girl.
;-)


In case you don't know the Bat Boy
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/mt/2014/10/batboy1_1/lead_large.jpg

So if Rodney Melodrama isn't regarded well by other Mopologists does that mean he's more credible-sounding, or less?

After looking through what Rodney says, I'd say his research might be less credible, maybe, I guess.

Managed a few minutes and then turned the garbage off.

First within a minute Meldrum says" I know The Book of Mormon's True".

He's already got the conclusion before he starts researching and got it by spiritual evidence etc.

Then a couple of minutes later he declares that Gordon Hinckley was a Prophet of God etc.

Hinckley claimed he couldn't understand why their was so much racism in the church back in a conference I attended in the stake house,(despite 100 plus years of unique LDS less valiancy indoctrination taught by prior LDS cult leaders).

He was a fraud and not a prophet.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2016 12:42PM by Zeezromp.

The relevant clip starts at 0:52 where Meldrum says:

"I know the Book of Mormon is true, so, therefore I know that there's going to be answers for it."

The "it" he's referring to is all the genetic research that shows Native Americans to be descended from Asians. That bothered Meldrum so he decided to study the issue. However, he STARTED with the conclusion ("The BoM is true") and went cherry-picking for evidence to back his conclusion up. His methodology is exactly opposite to that used by real scientists, who collect evidence, and only after analyzing ALL of it, form conclusions. You can "prove" anything using the methods that he and other apologists use.

And in the end, Meldrum's "evidence" still falls short because he ignores the vast time frames (tens of thousands of years) needed for the genetic studies he cites to make sense.

If I have any "nits to pick," it's with the problem determining whether Meldrum's "Heartland Model" actually has a larger following among the faithful than the "Mesoamerican believers" whose origins can be traced to the "original Tapir John," John L. Sorenson. His notions about "biological evidence for the BOM" were demolished in an archived piece I wrote in the topics section (#606 if anyone is interested; part II is still on my computer desktop. Sorenson's additional claims are equally nonsensical, and I'm finding it difficult to finish the "scatological analysis.").

Both camps have "commercial followings"; the Central American crowd offers "Tours of BOM Lands" via several operations here, while Meldrum enjoys the support of Alan Osmond and probably Senator Orrin Hatch... Meldrum also had a "dog-and-pony" show in October at the Southtown Mall, and I crashed it and obtained some "interesting souvenirs." Here's a preview: Meldrum isn't going to like what I'm going to post on several sites.

IMO, the debate on BOM settings reduces to loud arguments between "competing wings of the asylum," and neither is at all grounded in scientific or historical reality.

Here's a sample of what Meldrum encounters when he tries to peddle his shinola among actual scientists:

http://apps.ohiohistory.org/ohioarchaeology/newark-holy-stone-is-featured-on-america-unearthed/

Brad Lepper, the Ohio State archaeologist who's a terrific scholar and real gentleman, started out by taking non-Mormon, Scott Wolter, to task for his History Channel nonsense, and Meldrum elected to get into the act.

Simon showed up and pointed out Meldrum is a "Young Earth Creationist," and it got a little heated after that (several posts were deleted).

Meldrum accused Simon of "stalking him," which was laughable since another poster acknowledged sending Simon the heads-up, and then he tried to rip on Simon for being excommunicated for "adultery." Simon pointed out he'd reconciled with his wife by the time of his hearing, and his writings debunking the BOM were obviously why he was hauled into a court of love.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2016 03:03PM by SL Cabbie.

...but TBMs like Rodney Meldrum keep advocating it, and other TBMs forward the stuff to places like Facebook, and most TBMs who come across it don't realize how and why the assertions are bogus.

I first dealt with this subject when I was debating TBMs on the internet about 15 years ago. Here's a thread wherein I recounted my response to one TBM:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1531796,1580496#msg-1580496

Here's a 2008 thread where we dealt specifically with Rodney Meldrum's assertions re: his "Heartland" theory of BOM locations:

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon534.htm

Here's a section of Steven Clark's website where a lot of info and discussion on this issue is archived:

http://salamandersociety.com/dna/

Most of this material was posted 10-15 years ago. Unfortunately, Mormons like Meldrum are incorrigible fanatics, so they won't admit that they're wrong.

Meldrum's argument has been debunked a number of times and like everything else trotted out by the apologists, just another example of wishful thinking. As far as the DNA argument goes, I have one rule of thumb: if (and its a big if) DNA does surface that supports the BOM, you won't learn about through a cheesy youtube video, the church's propaganda arm will make sure its on the front page of the NY Times, etc. Just for comparison, a friend posted this article from the Guardian to FB. Apparently, scientists can determine the genetics of a few dead Romans and trace them to their Welsh ancestors, but no Lamanite DNA can be found in the Americas. I think that tells us all we need to know. http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/19/origins-of-yorks-decapitated-romans-traced-by-genome-technology

I listened to some of the podcast. He seems right as far as I can tell? I can't find a flaw in what he said.

This silly so called scientific bla-bla about coming out of Africans and monkeys and homo-somethings and amoebas which is taught in the government directed universities is just too much to swallow, it's too complicated. The simplest answer is probably the right answer.

Sorry I don't believe in Richard Dawkins.

It wasn't the facts he presented that are the problem, it's what he left out.

And as far as the "silly so called scientific bla-bla?" Every university--religious, secular or state--that gives classes in mainstream biology and other related subjects has to teach evolution, or they'd be leaving out the very unifying principle of the field.

The Russian Orthodox Christian Theodosius Dobzhansky (who was also an evolutionary biologist) said:

"Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_in_Biology_Makes_Sense_Except_in_the_Light_of_Evolution



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2016 09:04PM by lurking in.

I don't understand how you can dismiss science because it's complicated. According to you complicated things aren't true because you find them "shallow". I have no idea what that means. Should we dismiss the fact that we're made of trillions of tiny cells because it seems simpler for a human to believe that we're one giant cell? To a human it may seem simpler that Zeus causes lighting and rain than things like electrons and the water cycle because those are to complicated. Poopstone, you're dealing with matters that you seem to have little education in. I suggest you take college courses on these subjects and then disprove genetics with your peer reviewed research.

This from nauticaa1220 says it all...

"If the Mormon prophet really does talk to God everyday why doesn't he just ask about the DNA problem. Since the prophet apparently has discussions with God all the time, every issue that would cause someone to leave the church should be answered readily. There should never be a point in time where Mormons are wondering what is true and what is not true since they have a man who has direct connection to God. If the prophet can't clear up the hundreds of issues that plague the Mormon church then he is no prophet!"

They "prophet's" should be able to simply answer any and all questions.

Whether it's true or not is of no concern. It purports to be a church so it's irrelevant to me.

RB

http://www.fairmormon.org/reviews-of-dna-evidence-for-book-of-mormon-geography/section-1-summary-dna-evidence


Even his own disown him.

Is a model of "circular reasoning" itself; they make extensive use to an "axiomatic statement," that "The BOM is true," and then point out how the BOM invalidates the Meldrumite musings.

There are also some definite "Lying for the Lord" tendencies; i.e. we're not saying what you thing we're saying...

>That being said, this paper may occasionally make reference to a Mesoamerican model for Book of Mormon geography. Such reference is not made to argue for that particular geographical model, but because, [first] the presentation often criticizes Mesoamerican models through misrepresentation and [second] the presentation often makes a claim that is equally true of the Mesoamerican model. If both models make the same claims and meet the criteria necessary for those claims, it stands to reason that both models would be equally viable relative to such claims.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2016 02:50PM by SL Cabbie.

http://m.phys.org/news/2016-01-genetic-ancient-trans-atlantic-migration-professor.html

This is a good read.

A clearly false book can never be proven true no matter how much logic is bent in an effort to do so. For someone to assert that they KNOW the Book of Mormon to be true through a claimed personal experience says nothing. Such testimony only proves that people are capable of self-deception.

As Mormon leader and scholar B.H. Roberts concluded after much study, the Book of Mormon is obviously the product of an immature mind. Joseph Smith, with the help of others and a good deal of plagiarism, produced a very flawed book which clearly originated in early 19th century New York's "Burned Over District".

Joseph Smith, for the most part, replaced it with contemporary "thus saith the Lord" revelations soon after its publication in 1830. Almost none of Mormonism's so-called "plan of salvation" or changing doctrine about god in found anywhere within its pages. Other than being primarily used by missionaries as a recruiting tool, the Book of Mormon serves no useful purpose.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2016 12:23PM by Templar.

I'd have to dig through my emails but years ago FAIR released some book my Mother in Law had me read. They were all excited about the "DNA Evidence" proving Indians were Hebrews.

They repeatedly stated some Professor from Texas and her work proves without a doubt that the BoM story was true!!

So I called her. She sent me an email with her published paper suggesting quite the opposite of what FAIR was claiming. She even mentioned she was unhappy they were misconstruing her work. After reading her paper I understand the DNA evidence was traced back to the Spanish Conquistadors.

BTW, they are desperate for evidence. People are leaving in larger numbers as people wake up and become conscious. They NEED something to stop the bleeding. And books like "Studies of the Book of Mormon" (written by B.H. Roberts) don't help their cause.

http://www.amazon.com/Studies-Book-Mormon-B-Roberts/dp/1560850272/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1454262110&sr=8-5&keywords=studies+of+book+of+mormon

So no. I don't see any benefits of some guy rambling on and on about the evidence makes the church true. The evidence, found by experts as documented BY experts says they don't have much of a leg to stand on. And the mindless repeated messages don't provide them credibility.

It only suggests desperation to me.

I've always found it interesting that those who claim they KNOW the church is true (often "beyond a shadow of a doubt" - whatever that means) are always clinging on to so-called "proofs", no matter how weak, and have the inherent need to share them with others.

It would seem that if they truly KNOW what they claim, further proof would be rather superfluous.

There is no genetic evidence to support the BoM. There is plenty of disconfirming evidence that contradicts both the location and timeline claimed in the BoM.

There is no linguistic evidence supporting any trace of either Hebrew or Egyptian in any Native American language.

The counting systems don't match up. Calendars don't match. Number of days in a week don't match. Domesticated animals don't match. Foods don't match. Money doesn't match. Weapons, transportation, metallurgy don't match.

Population growth claimed in BoM is simply impossible. And even by BoM standards, the Book of Ether is absurd, which supposes Noah's flood actually happened, the Tower of Babel was the true source of languages, and wooden submarines full of livestock that flipped over from time to time. Cow manure everywhere!

Oh, and mountain ranges coming up in a matter of hours when Jesus decided to drop by and visit the Americas. Bad geology.

Did. Not. Happen. None of it.