What if the Mafia mowed down several of your brothers?

What if a hippy Hindu cult enticed one of your children to join and waste away years of their life and produce grandchildren who were taught to demean and mistrust you?

What if the mormon church lied and manipulated you or your loved ones for years or for generations?

I think the appropriate response to any of these situations wouldn't be simply a mild non-commital shrug. Someone who suffers from a manipulative cult has a right to try to protect others from the same fate. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact I think it's commendable.

Eric and Susan and those who run RfM have saved marriages, sanity, and lives in my opinion. Those who post here about the pitfalls and evils of the morg are doing readers a favor of helping them find areas where they can take a closer look and possibly find their way out of a harmful situation or avoid joining entirely.

Those who have survived brain tumors sometimes reach out to the vicitms and families.

Those with impending blindness do the same.

Anyone who has suffered mormon and mormon polygamous cultism has a right to hold it in contempt. I dare anyone to tell me that I don't have a right to my personal reactions to it and the right to warn others and help them leave if they so choose.

The mormon church is the problem, not **me.** I am not the problem nor are other morg survivors a problem, except to the crdibility of a destructive cult.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2011 12:11PM by Cheryl.

Example: Being "offended" is a huge character flaw, one that is regularly blamed for leading people out of the church.

However, the LDS church spends virtually NO time teaching people how to set personal boundaries. . . ] or on the flip side, how to avoid being OFFENSIVE by respecting the privacy of others and the right to choose. It NEVER apologizes when a leader mistreats a member. The member is just expected to suck it up and forgive, and CERTAINLY NEVER to complain about the leader. There is NO recourse to deal with a leader that oversteps their bounds.

The person who gets upset at being mistreated/abused, or the person who refuses to forgive is treated as the greater sinner than the one who hurt another in the first place. Submissiveness is prized.

So we leave a controlling and deceptive religion after dedicating years of our lives to it? They really think we should just shut up about it, just as members are expected to do. Again, the greater sin is COMPLAINING or getting upset about being misled or misused. They think it's a virtue to just sweep it under the rug.

And, this translates into personal relationships as well. When DH and I were first married, he'd do something really thoughtless but if I dared mention it or complain about it, he'd jump all over me telling me how terrible it was I was finding fault with him, saying how I wasn't perfect either and couldn't criticize him unless I was etc. Meaning I couldn't express a personal preference that differed from his or ask to be treated considerately or anything w/o it making me the bad guy. Because setting boundaries and asking for respect was far worse than any lack of respect or inconsideration on his part. Basically, the thought he could do anything he wanted and I would be the bad guy for complaining about it.

Thankfully, he worked that one through and doesn't act like that any more but it was Mormonism in a nutshell. The attitude is "sit there and take it" and if you complain, you are in the wrong. You are worse to complain about the abuse that the abuser is for inflicting it. It's really a sick way of thinking.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2011 12:43PM by CA girl.

It was totally devoted to good manners, civilty, and honoring boundaries in daily life.

The mormon church needs to have Prieshood and RS lessons several times a year on this topic and more often in primary. It's appalling how rude and offensive mormons can be among themselves and especially with non-mormons. But they tend to think if they use a quiet voice and a smile that it's fine to be abrasive and hurtful.

You said it!

In my mind, I summed it up shortly after joining the church when I noticed that it wasn't a sin for leaders to be arrogant, rude, gossipy, etc. it was just a sin for others to notice.

I'm so glad to be out, and Cheryl - I agree that there are plenty of groups, concepts, individuals, etc. that are deserving of hate.

Where's the "like" button.

Cheryl, I honestly believe unless someone has been in someone else's shoes they shouldn't judge as if they know everything to begin with. If someone hurt, brainwashed, coerced a loved one, of course i'd be highly upset. And myself, the "little taste" i had of LDS faith, even after backing out I was having dreams @ night, beating myself for "almost" sinking into it. I couldn't even fathom being a member. It actually affected me for a little while after I was over all the "euphoria" So I couldn't imagine going through all the rituals, brainwashing, etc. Going to the temple and what you endured there. I got a "small taste" of manipulation, myself. I couldn't even imagine what you and others went through as far as through the leaders, etc. Myself, not liking to hate, I can honestly state that if some people/organization/church hurt a loved one in one form or another, hating, as well as bitterness, would make lots of sense.

Deb, if that is your honest belief, then you have to by reason hate every church, every organization, every person, every everything on the face of the earth. There is not a single person who doesn't get offended or hurt by someone or something else at sometime in their life. I'm sure many have been offended and/or hurt by you. Is that reason for vilification? Really?

Yes, maybe we have all been hurt and/or felt rejected in our lives but normally it is all made alright. The wrongs made right, as far as me hurting someone or someone hurting me. But if there were someone or s'thing that took over my loved ones lives in a way that wasn't healthy, of course i'd want to intervene and of course, i'd be bitter. I'm far from perfect but myself, I'd NEVER "intentionally" hurt someone or their feeling, etc. There'a a big difference in intentional and unintentional. I've never hated a religion. I've always been a member of a mainstream religion in which they are there for you but do not try to take over your life. And, maybe wording it incorrectly, I try not to hate, but I feel as if I've never been in a situation in which a person, church, organization has changed or tried to change my life. So, therefore, how can myself or any of us judge if someone feels hate, bitterness, contempt, etc. for any organization, etc.

What is good or bad for people is their call not ours, unless of course we are control freaks and then that is a whole other issue. Many here complain that they are being forced into mormonism and yet they seek to force others out. Is that logical? Do as I say but not as I do?

Where are you getting this dreck? I can't remember how many times I've read on this board that people have to make their own choices for what's right for them and that you can't make them think, feel, or believe what you might like them to.

What a strange person you are...

Why in the heck do you come to this sight suk? You don't seem to agree with anything or anybody and you like to try to get us riled up. Go give yourself a swirley.

+100 -- lol! I'm going to bed on that pleasant note! :D

sukiyhtaky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is good or bad for people is their call not
> ours, unless of course we are control freaks and
> then that is a whole other issue. Many here
> complain that they are being forced into mormonism
> and yet they seek to force others out. Is that
> logical? Do as I say but not as I do?
===========================================
No one is *forcing* anyone.

It's called having the facts and making an informed decision!

vs. the problems that come up in an ABUSIVE relationship or controlling church (or a cult).

The difference is in the way problems are worked out.


sukiyhtaky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Deb, if that is your honest belief, then you have
> to by reason hate every church, every
> organization, every person, every everything on
> the face of the earth. There is not a single
> person who doesn't get offended or hurt by someone
> or something else at sometime in their life. I'm
> sure many have been offended and/or hurt by you.
> Is that reason for vilification? Really?

Normal people make mistakes. They sometimes do things that hurt other people, accidentally, or even on purpose. But good people or organizations learn from their mistakes, apologize, and try to make things right. Those are the types of people/organizations that you can work through past mistakes with and build a trusting or loving relationship with.

But abusive relationships don't work that way. In an abusive relationship or church, the abuser usually denies any wrongdoing, and often tries to shift the blame to the victim, often warping that persons sense of reality or self-worth.

Sukiyhtaky, your post was actually a mild example of manipulation/abuse. You implied that if Deb has surely hurt people in her life, and since she has, she has no right to complain. This is inappropriate because 1) You don't know Deb 2) You don't know how she interacts with people or how she has mended past mistakes 3) even if she HAD hurt people and hadn't mended it, that wouldn't mean she can't ever complain about mistreatment for the rest of her life.

One of the main things an abuser does is minimize the worth, abilities, feelings or thoughts of the abused person (like telling them they have no right to be upset because they aren't perfect, either ;-). The LDS church has this down to an art. Anyone who leaves supposedly did so because of sin (they are labeled as "bad", therefore minimizing the respect anyone in the church has for them); they read anti-mormon literature (they are supposedly "deceived" because they don't agree . . . and not only are they wrong, but they have supposedly sinned by even READING unapproved sources. This in itself is the topic of a discussion on a person or group who presumes to tell another what information they may access); or they were "offended" (overly sensitive and emotionally volitale).

By defending people's right to criticize the LDS church, I'm not recommending that people need to be angry at the LDS church their whole life because that would be a waste of energy. But there is nothing wrong with feeling appropriate anger over mistreatment. In fact, it's HEALTHY to be upset when you are mistreated. That's how you notice that you don't LIKE that kind of treatment and you deserve better.

The reverse IS a problem; when someone comes to ACCEPT mistreatment humbly and submissively, then they are broken.

This is a place for healing. Discussing the problems (as we do here on the board), affirming that the treatment was wrong (an essential step in healing from control and abuse), and learning to think about ourselves and interact with other people in a more healthy way is a POSITIVE thing.

And here's another parallel between people who leave the LDS church and those who leave abusive relationships: A lot of people who have not been on the receiving end of the abuse (or who accept that kind of behavior as normal) are perfectly willing to defend the abuser or turn a blind eye to the abuse, or even join the abuser in attacking the victim. We saw just a little bit of that today.

so they turn on those who were victims of it.

Perhaps they're afraid to find out they were part of the problem? Or they possibly still love and appreciate the abuser and can't face that thei shinyr ideal is tarnished?

It's just more comfortable and pleasant to assume that anyone who is abused must deserve it or that they must at least keep it under wraps and absorb the blows in silence.

This is 100% agreed upon. Yes, there are times in our lives in which we may be on the giving or receiving end of something or someone who has hurt us. Luckily, in my experiences in life, there's always been the "mending" or "remorse". There's always been someone there to pick you up or TRY to pick you up if you're having a bad day &/or if you have had trauma, etc. in your life.

We have all at one time or another in our lives hurt or offended someone. None of us is perfect. I left the church and have none of the problems any of you allude to and have never had any problems with any of the members. I was never a believer and when I decided to leave for personal reasons, the bishop said are you sure? I said yes and that was it. He even printed out the letter for me as my printer went down. We remain friends, he continues to help me with my projects as he always has, my friends from the Y remain loyal and those I knew in the church from the very few times I attended still say hi when we run into each other in town and do the usual catch up stuff. So explain to me why I need to hate or vilify them because of their beliefs? Life goes on. I have always had enough of a spine to set boundaries and they were always respected. If I see the missionaries I yell out my car window about how cheap their bishop is for not giving them a car. I ran into the RS president and when I told her I had resigned she shrugged and said 'well it's not for everyone' and we talked about other things. Honestly the only hate and anger I have experienced has been on this board. I think you all feed off of each other and try to out do each other with your vilifications. There are a few posters who throw absurdity out and then the minions run to attack like a feeding frenzy while the posters sit back. I was shown this board by a couple of non-members who like to watch the tantrums thrown here. You all remind me of a cult more then the mormons. You can wallow in self-pity and hold THEM to blame for all your problems or you can move on---remember the best revenge is to live well and successfully.

The best way to move on is to join another church or not, take up a hobby or not, get involved in something that will keep you from the incessant pity about what how much you have suffered. You want to see real suffering, go work in a woman's shelter, feed the homeless under a freeway onramp, visit a children's cancer ward at the local hospital and make pillowcases or toys to take to cheer them up, adopt a senior who is alone, get out of yourself and into another person and the whole world will look a whole lot better. Any shrink will tell you the same thing. Each of us controls our own happiness or lack of it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2011 10:37PM by sukiyhtaky.

If you didn't have any problems - that's your business

But your preaching is disgusting and inappropriate.

It's offensive to any and all of us who had serious issues with Mormonism and come here for support. Not for you to pretend like you know what "any shrink will tell us."

There are a few "shrinks" on this board as well.

If everything is so peachykeen for you great! Let others recover at their own pace and in their own time. To date, all I have seen from you are snarky nasty comments. If you are here to troll, you are done. I have had enough.

I had recently gone through my second church sponsored divorce.
I was beside my self with depression, no I was beyond dpression to despondany. I was alone isolated a new job in a new area. The TSCC does an excelent job of being able to make the member feel the failure personaly when things don't turn out the way the church says it should.
I was desperate I had searched the net once and didn't find this board a month later I tried searching on the net agian and I found this site and here were a flood of others who had spent years trying to be what the curch told them to be.

I was no longer alone.

For quite a while my emotions were explosive and a few times I replied to posts at the wrong place and it appeared I was directing my assualt at individuals but I wasn't. I appologise to anyone who was offended at my outbursts of emotion.
It has taken years for for me to work whrough the effects of mormonism. The manipulation, deception, years ago I made a commitment that I was going to prove the church true by living and doing their plan. Nearly forty years later I finally had to call b____t and walk away.
All I can say is thank you.
I call myself halfbreed in memory of my father who was a nonmember but was a far better man and taught me much more than any of the priesthood holders I was told to look up to.
Thanks agian

What a relief!

Glad you found this board and it helped you through a difficult time. Take care.

This board helped myself. I was having doubts but already somewhat confused. How could the nice, selfless people care so much about you and then find out about the reality. If anything, I can state this board helped w/my decsion. Thank you to the people on this board. Still very green, what is the priesthood supposed to be able to do for you. I notice it's expected that they are looked up to. They appear as if they do no wrong.

I'm 5th generation BIC, so that means four generations of my family have been lied to and robbed by the Salt Lake barons. Nobody has the right to lecture me about hate. Cheryl said it well. I can hate a multi-generational organization for the damage it did to my flesh and blood. Stupid men like my father were taken advantage of, and many of my uncles and aunts left the madness that is Mormonism. I left too.

I often think it is different for BIC ex-MOrmons than for convert ex-Mormons like myself. Mormonism wasn't part of my identity from birth, so lack the intensity of feeling some BIC ex-Mormons may feel. I may not be accurate in that belief, but I wonder.

I would say I hate Mormonism selectively, if I can put it that way. The simple existence of the Mormon Church doesn't cause me to hate it, but aspects of it make me burn cold. I don't hate because it is a religion, but I do hate its predatory, self-satisfied, ignorant, self-serving nature and the unnecessary pain it causes people.

Other posters may 'hate' this suggestion, so it's only for you. This is an angle of psychology that is certainly not mainstream, but I believe it uncovers a truth about the psyche.

All hatred is self-hatred (for how we appear, our attacking thoughts, our ignorance, our inability to get what we desire, our position in life, our very separative existence--it's a package). We can't stand that, so in an effort to cleanse ourselves and appear innocent, we project that hatred out onto 'others' (who are unrecognized dreamed-up aspects of ourself) or conditions (which are then seen as adverse). This is what happens in dreams...and what happens in this "waking dream" we share with other dreamers (we are all 'asleep' to what's really going on). "Hatable" things and people appear in our 'world' as long as we don't recognize this projection mechanism and the crazy subconscious rationale for it.

If we didn't have any self-hatred, would our world appear as a paradise? I think others engaged in criminal acts, etc., would continue to exist, but our response would be different. They are lost in their egos' games and are acting out their own self-hatreds; they may need restraint, isolation, or whatever justice society deems fit--but not our hatred.

But simply on a practical level, think of a medical model (since those hated ones are indeed sick). Does a doctor "hate" a disease or a patient who has it? Does a psychologist "hate" a complex, a client who suffers from it, or the dysfunctional family that forms a system with it? That would hinder his or her effectiveness.

Since you are a practitioner yourself, I'd like to know your thoughts on this. Others may flame, but not you. Thanks!

Excellent post Cheryl. I hate the morg.for the decades of lies. I hate that I still have 4 children very involved in the morg. I hate that those children really believe I am not as worthy as they are.They feel sorry for me because I am going to outer darkness. I hate that when my 21 year old dd gets married in the temple I will not be there with her.

I HATE THE DAMN MORMON CHURCH!!!

But I love RfM. I don't know what I would do without it.

nice post, loveskids. this site is for stating what's on your mind as well as what's in your heart. it's not to be judged by someone else. You never know what something is like until you've done or been through it yourself.