I'm not saying I think she is lying. Wow, what an eye opening book! But, I always read both sides of the story and was wondering where to read the counter attack if there is one.

It's been a while since I read this book but I do remember that there was some criticism that she combined stories and possibly embellished some of them too but as far as I'm concerned I would consider this as a memoir, taking in to account that this was her experience and the way she saw things and even if 1/2 of the things she says are absolute "truth", this was a heartbreaking time to live. I think she tells a good story and give a very good picture and account of the times and what women of polygamist, religious background went through.

whoops I confused "tell it all" for wife no. 19! Sorry.

Hugh Nibley wrote an interesting "counter attack" (he does appear to be attacking her) that is unlike his other works, lacking in footnotes and heavy on vindictiveness.

He does bring up an interesting point though: Why exactly did Eliza and Brigham marry to begin with?

Physical attraction seems to have nothing to do with it. Brigham was VERY attracted to his wife Amelia, but seemed to have no affection whatsoever for Eliza. Likewise, Eliza for Brigham. And Ann Eliza returned home after the wedding and stayed there for the next 30 days. Not typical honeymoon behavior.

Granted, the groom already had 30-plus wives, this doesn't seem to be an ordinary marriage even by the standards of the time and place.

Anne Eliza told one female reporter that the marriage was never consummated, in which case why seek out a divorce?

Hugh Nibley brings up some other curious points ("Sounding Brass" I think is the name of his book).

Certainly Ann Eliza was a bit of an attention seeker. She had previously acted on the stage (The SLC stage) and she did VERY well for herself on the lecture circuit.

I don't think she lied. She didn't need to lie. Her story was interesting enough as is. I think Hugh Nibley said she stole some material from "Tell it all." Maybe. Maybe not. Fanny and Eliza moved in the same circles, they knew the same people, they heard the same gossip. So their stories would be very similar.

Hugh Nibley's book is interesting because for the first time (that I know of) he engages in rather lengthy character analysis, and even though he is out to attack poor Eliza, and determined to see her in the worst possible light, he is rather good at character analysis. For some reason, whenever he talked about Eliza, I kept thinking of Hugh's daughter Martha. I don't think Hugh was comfortable around attention-seeking emotional women.

Now that I think of it, the impetus that inspired Nibley's book was Irving Wallace's book "The 19th wife)\" which Wallace researched extensively before he put pen to paper.

Maybe Hugh just wanted to set the record straight.

At that time, no one could figure out how and where Eliza ended her days, but I think that mystery has been solved.

It wasn't the Gadianton robbers or the Danites in case anyone is wondering. She lived to a nice old age, and died of natural causes.

Lois

Loislane wrote:

>Now that I think of it, the impetus that inspired Nibley's book was Irving Wallace's book "The 19th wife)\" which Wallace researched extensively before he put pen to paper.

Wallace's book (which is excellent) was titled "The Twenty-seventh Wife."

All depends on how you count them.

You are right. The name of the book was "The 27th wife."

I guess it all depends on who is counted and who is counting.

Hugh Nibley pulls out all stops in attacking both Ann Eliza and Irving Wallace. The word "overkill" comes to mind. My goodness, Ann Eliza was telling her personal story, not entering into a legal debate.

Still -- a haunting unnerving feeling, that HN was really talking about his daughter. Impossible, since Martha was a mere child at the time it was written. But since I am reading it at this late date, when HN slams Eliza I end up thinking "Martha." That's just me.

It does become evident that HN does NOT like histrionic women, and maybe he doesn't like ANY woman especially a woman who claims to know something about Mormonism, which whatever else you can say about Ann Eliza and Fanny Stenhouse, they DID know a thing or two about Mormonism, having lived it. And they wrote what they knew. They didn't need footnotes.

HN makes a case that the REAL Ann Eliza, can be found in her portrayal of one of her father's wives -- a histrionic, suicide threatening actress wannabe.

But HN also says there is no humor in Ann Eliza's book, and I found AE's account of her father's drama-queen wife VERY AMUSING.

The antidote for the "poison" this woman had swallowed was agreed to be a strong cup of Cayenne Pepper tea.

ZOWIE.


If you have an idle afternoon it might be fun to read AE's book next to HN book "Sounding Brass."

Then YOU can be the judge.

But once again, AE had no need to lie anymore than the brides of Short Creek need to lie when they write their tell-alls.

The truth is strange enough.

I would suggest also reading "Tell it All" by Fanny Stenhouse. I believe that her husband wrote a book as well, but I haven't read that one.

Some of the stories are collaborated in each. I don't know about Ann Eliza stealing stories, but I did notice that some events were in both books.

I definitely wouldn't trust anything the Mormon apologists may have written about her. Mormons will attack anyone who criticizes them.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2016 02:37PM by Greyfort.

Greyfort Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would suggest also reading "Tell it All" by
> Fanny Stenhouse. I believe that her husband wrote
> a book as well, but I haven't read that one.

You haven't missed anything by not reading his book. They had to have collaborated with their books, and it gets repetitious. One could do a very boring intertextual comparison of the Stenhouse books and AnnEliza's book, and conclude that if you read one, you have read them all.

As others have said, Hugh Nibley did attempt a rebuttal to Wife No. 19, called "Tinkling Cymbals and Sounding Brass: The Art of Telling Tales About Joseph Smith and Brigham Young." I believe there's a link to an online version of it from Ann Eliza's wikipage.

I concur that it's essentially an exercise in character assassination. There are maybe a couple of valid points raised, lost in a sea of personal attacks. The Nibbler's objective was to preserve the pristine reputation of Brigham Young at all costs, so he dragged the entire Webb family through the mud in his efforts.

Considering Nibley's chronic habit of playing fast and loose with the facts himself, it's comical for him to accuse someone else of not being truthful.

Why did Ann Eliza agree to marry Young? She discusses that on pp. 440-45 of the book. Family pressure; Young could make or break the family's fortunes depending on her answer. Although the book doesn't come out and say it, I also think her parents quite liked the idea of their daughter as one of BY's wives, as that would increase their social standing in the church and community.

There's no indication anywhere that Young and Ann Eliza ever slept together. She denied it, and significantly he never claimed to have done so.

As for the mystery of when & where she died, you can read the back story at

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1286528

I archived the link this time; I was thinking about it when this thread came up.

Per a personal note to me from Will Bagley: "This is important because her fate wasn't known to historians."

Well done, seriously, and a big thank you from the historical community.

As for me, I'm a big Ann Eliza fan (although I'm not going to step into the argument whether she and BY did or didn't; it doesn't matter an iota, and people lied about sex as much back then as they do now).

The other relevant individual in this one is Chauncey Webb, Ann Eliza's father, who oversaw the construction of the handcarts. One of the "vitriolic anti-Mormons" that the Nibleyites routinely condemn is Wm. Wyl (Wilhelm Wymetal) who published a work on the Saints that was entirely credible. Chauncey Webb is one of those who was a source of information, Ann Eliza accurately describes her father's turmoil in enduring these "trials of faith" that "embraced him." I'm certain that Chauncey was no fan of BY at the end.

Thanks for forwarding on the Will Bagley note. I knew it would be important due to her historical significance. It was a genuinely exciting find for me. I'm glad to know that the appropriate people are aware of it now, and that it's out there for good.

The church, of course, would have preferred it never be found, and there was a minor Wiki skirmish about it last year. Some Mormonite dweeb took it upon himself to delete her date of death and restore the previous "date unknown," despite the death certificate being referenced as the source (meanwhile retaining her date of burial, as if one could not be reasonably deduced from the other). In fact, he did it TWICE, and was quickly slapped down both times before he gave up. I then linked the source reference to the online certificate image to prevent it from happening again. We won that one, but Mormons can be such damned idiots.

>>>> I'm certain that Chauncey was no fan of BY at the end.<<<

I share that certainty.

It's amazing how many of BY's "best men" which CHaunchy certainly was, had nothing good to say of him at the end.

I reread parts of HN's "Sounding Brass" last night, and I was struck by the shrill, almost histrionic quality of it.

One thing I noted (it was hard to miss) was the undisguised anti-woman thread that runs through the whole thing. It was so blatant, that I seriously doubt that it would be published today even by an LDS press, without deleting the woman-bashing parts.

Hugh Nibley does not like women, and he doesn't think that YOU, dear reader, should like them either. Fawn Brodie, Eliza Webb, Fanny Stenhouse, and a half dozen others he lumps together and trashes together because they are WOMEN.

Women have no business writing scholarly works.

Women have no business telling their personal stories.

Women have no business seeking a better life for themselves.

Women should shut up and mind their housework.

One of his funnier points -- he mentions that Eliza and her Mother could never have been truly faithful Mormons because they didn't hold any church calling. It's like, since they weren't president of the relief society they weren't true believing Mormons.

This is hysterical.

The MAN of the house, Chauncy, was constantly being sent on "callings," for which he was not paid. BY did not believe in paying the help. He WAS willing to marry a woman so he could get an unpaid servant, which may have been his chief interest in Eliza. He needed someone to help manage his dairy farm.

ANYWAY, Chauncy knew how to build wagons and handcarts, and he was part of the team that helped put together the handcarts to help THAT disaster along.

The women and children were left to fend for themselves. Promised money was not forthcoming.

But HN lights into Eliza and her Mother because they did not hold church offices.

And because they were women.

So BY broke D&C 132?

Huh.

:-)