I baptized a woman and her two children against the husbands (catholic) wishes.This was a upper middle class happy family. The newly baptized wife goes turbo tbm on her Italian born husband and gives him the ultimatum to baptize or else. The husband wisely refused. I had since come home and she wrote me and told me of her husbands disbelief. I told her to keep the family together. One day she shows up at my work in Utah with the two kids in tow and informed me that she divorced her husband and took half of his trucking company and came to ZION. She purchased a home and put her kids into school and began to look for that worthy priesthood holder. She found two and within three years had married both and divorced and lost most of her money to them. Just when I thought it could not get worse she informed me her daughter got pregnant I Jr High and her son was arrested for drugs in high school. What a blessing for her to have the restored gospel.. NOT!!! She eventually moved back to her hometown with the adult children to start over. She is no longer active..duh! Oh how I wish I would not have stopped in front of that beautiful white home in the country with the white fence and manicured yard and pool and distracted her from washing her windows. I am so sorry. This is one of the stories that needs to be told in the Ensign.
There ain't one of us RM's that doesn't have at least one story along those lines of the regret that we now have for selling Joseph's Myth to gullible people on our missions.
I hear you 'anon for ta day'. You brought a memory flooding back when I was a missionary in Virginia back in the 70's. I witnessed firsthand how the gospel of Jesus Christ took a back seat in favor of getting higher numbers of baptisms for meaningless reports.
During my first few months of my mission, there was a woman we began teaching that was married with a young daughter. Her husband wanted no part of Mormonism. Our presence and our constant visits were really irritating the husband causing a lot of marital unrest in this once happy marriage.
I voiced my concern that maybe we should not pursue this family as we were becoming more and more unwelcome to the husband. I resisted my companion’s eagerness to continue teaching this woman and it became such an issue between us that my companion called the ZLs to come and straighten out my “bad attitude”. According to the ZLs, we needed the baptism stats higher and I was standing in the way.
Well, being the junior companion and having my concerns swept aside, we ended up going several more times to teach this woman and she was agreed to be baptized without her husband’s blessing. Afterwards we found out that they began some serious arguing and fighting over her being a member and eventually she filed for divorce.
She left with the young daughter and moved to Utah and the husband stayed in Virginia vowing to do what he could to destroy the Mormon church.
So a once happy home and marriage was systematically destroyed and a little girl had her world turned upside down for the sake of baptism numbers.
It was one of the saddest thing I ever participated in. I wish that this woman would have been gone shopping when we were out tracting. Maybe she would still be married and their little girl would have been raised in a happy family and free of Mormonism.
If those wives had truly loved their husbands, they would never have left them. In fact, they would have discontinued contact with the missionaries if their husbands' wishes mattered, which in a good marriage they do.
You may feel guilty for your part, however, if it wasn't you it would have been someone else and possibly even another religion.
Yes, missionary work does pull in more investigators and 'ruin' families, but if those wives loved and respected their husbands this would not have happened.
The church, in these instances, provided the women with an escape from a marriage they did not want to be in.
A lot of people outside mosim HAVE to get married to save shame on their families. Yes, shotgun marriages happen in places other than america, and they happened especially before the 1970s, when birth control became easily available.
anonuk Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > If those wives had truly loved their husbands, > they would never have left them.
OK, but - by the time it has got to this state, that's a moot point
> In fact, they > would have discontinued contact with the > missionaries if their husbands' wishes mattered, > which in a good marriage they do.
I don't think you realise how compulsive religion can be for some people. that feeling that you get burning in your bosom, is HG himself, telling you DIRECTLY that this is the truth.
some marriages survive all sorts of trouble; adultery, addiction, even full blown affairs...... but if you believe that god himself is telling you that this is what you have to do, that can be more compelling than anything
> You may feel guilty for your part, however, if it > wasn't you it would have been someone else and > possibly even another religion. > > Yes, missionary work does pull in more > investigators and 'ruin' families, but if those > wives loved and respected their husbands this > would not have happened.
i dont believe this is true > > The church, in these instances, provided the women > with an escape from a marriage they did not want > to be in.
i dont believe this is true, except at the finale, where the church has caused so, so much division that, obviosuly, neither one wants to be with the other
I get what you are saying and I know why the church pushes that it is really 'God' that 'commands' this. Thing is, these women trusted two young guys' word over their husbands.
I've seen plenty bad relationships in my time outside of church and yes some couples can work through addiction, adultery, whatever, but there was always a problem there to begin with that empowered the destructive behaviour. Many couples are locked into a bad relationship that they feel culturally incapable of escaping (bit like being bic). An italian woman born pre 1960 could never leave an abusive husband, for instance, without being shunned by everyone in her family and community and always being 'the divorcee' wherever she went. Religion in america gave her an escape but had terrible fall out on her future and her kids' future. However, fast forward 40 years and she might have become a cocaine addict, ruining her marriage and children's future that way.
Those of us raised in the church were told what to look for in a spouse. Not many people outside church are taught the same thing. Some of us who are more intelligent than the norm try not to not make rash decisions with life changing consequences. These days people decide whether to keep a pregnancy before deciding to get married or not. 40 years or more ago and a quickie marriage was guaranteed, nothing else to think about. In fact, I would wager that a vast majority of marriages pre 1980 were shotgun marriages.
If you love, respect and value your relationship with your spouse you would discuss everything and not do things that make the other unnecessarily uncomfortable.
A friend of mine threatened a customer with legal action over an unpaid invoice. The customer hanged himself two days later. It was not my friends' fault, although the threat was the straw that broke the camel's back. There may have been more than one threat of legal action, there may be lots of other things going on in the guy's life. The fact that he killed himself is not my friend's fault but he does still feel guilt over it.
The church likes young men to go on missions and convert people so they themselves never leave because in the twisted mormon mindset, to leave after converting someone means you lied. You are not a liar, therefore, you will never leave the cult.
Some other poster on another thread said once that this church is like a dangerous addictive drug that takes over and destroys lives. It should be rated a Class A drug and whatever equivalent is in the US.
Basically, you're claiming that the church/misshies can exploit vulnerable people all they want and if the victims fall for it, then it's the victims' own faults.
There is nothing wrong with people regretting their actions that had negative effects on others. They regret because they have a conscience and are capable of admitting mistakes. That means they are less likely to repeat the same actions/mistakes. I have no problem with them at all.
People like you who rationalize away their misdeeds and errors that caused others harm, on the other hands, are not to be trusted. Your post is a blatant display of the Mormon predatory mindset being alive and well in your head. No worries that you hurt other people; you didn't mean it, and they shouldn't have been too big of idiots to fall for it anyway, ergo you really aren't responsible for your actions at all?
> People like you who rationalize away their > misdeeds and errors that caused others harm, on > the other hands, are not to be trusted. Your post > is a blatant display of the Mormon predatory > mindset being alive and well in your head. No > worries that you hurt other people; you didn't > mean it, and they shouldn't have been too big of > idiots to fall for it anyway, ergo you really > aren't responsible for your actions at all? > > Utter BS.
sorry mate, I don't know what your problem is. I'm female and never been on a mission or converted anyone: does that change your opinion somewhat? it should. I was raised to believe this bullshit and when I rejected it I underwent what a lot of people on this board do, my family treating me like i'm crazy or a sinner or being ruled by satan and shunning me, treating me like I'm 'lesser' than they are.
You are obviously angry, however, I was not trying to absolve the OP of the guilt he feels, couldn't anyway even if I tried, I just tried to assuage it a little. The church uses the guilt members feel to keep them believing and this works very. well for rms.
By the way, I wouldn't trust someone I don't know either, but please, let's leave the aggression and personal insults out of it?
May have appeared so, superficially. But unlikely. Cracks were there in search of a fantasy.
Anonuk insightful.
And were we half so powerful and convincing as we were brainwashed to believe why, folks would have been lining up at the baptismal fonts. They never were. They're not now.
What a fantasy. Dunk you in water and all of a sudden - magic. Here's your pink cotton candy.
That lady who converted obviously had issues beyond the church.
For example, insisting that her husband change his beliefs to coincide with her new ones was controlling and unreasonable. Uprooting her family and moving overseas was impulsive. Showing up at your work . . . WTH? That's weird. Getting married quickly to someone new, divorcing, marrying someone else, and divorcing . . . all impulsive and unstable.
Maybe she was kind of crazy all along. Maybe Mormonism helped her get that way. Maybe her 1st husband is happier without her, for all you know.
imaworkinonit Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > That lady who converted obviously had issues > beyond the church.
Actually she was a very intelligent woman but we promised her that she would be blessed and the lord would take care of her and that her husband would eventually come around and be taught the Lord would open the windows of heaven. We taught her to listen to the Holy Ghost and ask god for Devine guidance and rely on that. We told her that it was the last days and Zion would be protected and the lords work established in the tops of the mountains.
Pray Pay and Obey and you'll be OK? F' that
Mormonism stole her identity and mind- she could not resist IMO the promises we made were too great.
Mine is a rather sad 'near conversion' story. Young Catholic man was pressurised by us to get baptised even though it was causing a lot of disharmony with his mother who he still lived with and he was also struggling with feelings of inadequacy as he was finding it so difficult to give up cigarettes.
Anyway the big day came. The font was filled, members were waiting in the chapel and he was getting changed into his whites but was taking a really long time in the cubicle. He reassured a few times that everything was ok when I & the ZLs checked on him, but then he basically did a runner straight out of the chapel doors and disappeared.
Finally found him a couple of weeks later and noticed the bandages on his wrists. We felt terrible for him and we all agreed that we'd simply let him get on with his life in peace. The survival of his suicide attempt on the night of his baptism had reignited his faith in the Catholic Church and even us young enthusiastic missionaries weren't going to try and argue with that.
....then there was the story of the couple we baptised and I later learnt the husband had murdered his wife.....then there was the one about the person who desperately wanted to be baptised but the first presidency (church lawyers) refused because of some previous sins......so yeah, not many happy endings to much of my conversion work. Although I am pleased to say that as far as I know every single person baptised is now out of the church, including one who himself went on to serve a mission.
I never found out what the person (female and worked as a nurse) had done many years previously but they had been a member of the IRA. MP interviewed them for baptism, came out looking like a ghost and then referred it to SLC. Message received and conveyed back via the MP (and I'll never forget this) - was word for word "the church lawyers are very uncomfortable with this and so the FP have denied baptism in this lifetime....but encourage her to live a good life and she may have a chance in the next"
I had to then telephone her and explain this (didn't go down well at all as you can imagine) and then comp and I were ordered to destroy the investigator record and we were both emergency moved the very next morning to the opposite end of the mission.
On the one hand I can see that there was some concern for our safety, even though we were actually very safe with this completely reformed and repentant person. Obviously there was a desire to protect TSCC.
Albeit while there was full and open confession to the MP, I suppose in the eyes of the church there might not have been full repentance without potential court prosecution, which would have been nigh on impossible for her to disclose to authorities as not only would her own life have been in extreme danger, but more so her family (married with 4 teenage kids) and friends would likely be targeted in reprisals for being a 'grass', so she was in a very difficult situation.
Very sad. One day when we were teaching this lady and I used her copy of the Book of Mormon to look something up and noted that she had marked all the bits in Alma that talk about burying weapons of war and she'd also written in the margin 'please God, forgive me'. I guess it was only in a fictional book that God chose to completely forgive a bunch of individuals that got caught in what they felt was a justifiable war and later realised the errors of their ways and repented.
Another story that didn't make the March 1992 Ensign.
That is really pitiful! So the LAWYERS decide who can and can't be baptized. Well, we've all seen that happening today too, I guess.
Maybe they need a drive-thru carwash version of baptism. Like you can pull in and have your sins washed clean, but then you have to be on your way because you've got dents and scratches that just don't wash out and we can't have you hangin with us and makin us look bad.
"...then there was the one about the person who desperately wanted to be baptised but the first presidency (church lawyers) refused because of some previous sins..."
Uh, isn't that kind of the idea? You know, Jesus, and forgiveness, and baptism for the remission of sins, and that kinda stuff?
"Very sad. One day when we were teaching this lady and I used her copy of the Book of Mormon to look something up and noted that she had marked all the bits in Alma that talk about burying weapons of war and she'd also written in the margin 'please God, forgive me'. I guess it was only in a fictional book that God chose to completely forgive a bunch of individuals that got caught in what they felt was a justifiable war and later realised the errors of their ways and repented."
yes, very sad. Ireland and Ulster are a mess. Some people believe there are some things are worth dying for and you do have to admire that conviction. Guess the lord moves in mysterious ways after all if that managed to give her the strength to break away from her past now that she has grown out of her youthful rage against the system.
I think it shows a lot of integrity that you worry about the part you had in what happened to this family but I agree with those who said if she really loved her husband and was a stable, rational person, she would have chosen him over your ridiculous religion in the first place. You may have given her the "gun and ammo" but she's the one who shot up her life. Hopefully she can get things back on track now that she's out of the church but it sounds like if you took the "gun" away from her, she'd just go looking for a knife or a rock. Some people are destined to mess up their lives and while you understandably regret your part in it, it's not entirely your fault.
OK, you converted her. But, you need to give yourself a break too. She wasn't forced at gunpoint. I do know how the CULT requires you to be as pushy as possible, but she still had a say in it, especially after she moved etc., and married and divorced the 1st RM. She was brainwashed by then and other CULT members had a huge role in that after you no longer knew her.
You have said you are sorry. I believe you. Don't keep beating yourself up about it. You thought you were doing the right thing at the time.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2016 04:21PM by verilyverily.
People are either responsible for their own decisions or they're not.
I carry zero guilt for my 21 baptisms. Just like I don't blame my parents for raising me in the church. They did the best they knew how and when I decided to take responsibility for myself I left.
I converted a Muslim from Egypt. I knew at the time I didn't believe any of this shit. I also had already laid out plans for how I was leaving the mission 1 week later with a girl I met over there. Yet I still baptized him anyways. I will never forgive myself for that and I'm happy not to forgive myself of it because I learned to never compromise what I believe, or rather don't believe, Because of the expectations of others.
This guy received notification that his family in Egypt learned of his conversion and were preparing to come to Europe to end his life. Pretty common thing to do for strict Muslims in Egypt. He had a white, mormon wife as well, and a adorable kid. He had to leave the wife and child to live with another mormon family in a location I won't disclose. This eventually resulted in the wife taking the child, abandoning the church she apparently hadn't believed in, and divorcing the newly converted ex Muslim. I ruined this man's life.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2016 10:31AM by buriedego.