Masturbation and pornography are harmful and sinful ONLY because we have been artificially convinced that they are. The harm is not that they are inherently bad, but that we have been led to believe that they are bad.

Suppose that we did the same thing with something like basketball? Suppose we were convinced that God had given a commandment: "Thou shalt not play ball except with a team of which thou art legally and lawfully a member."

Now, every kid has a ball. Balls are natural. But the use of the ball must be channeled into healthful and righteous uses. Anything else would be harmful and a sin.

Preachers would give sermons to the young men: "Boys, don't use your little ball until you are officially on a team."

Some men have the nasty habit of secretly taking their ball out to the driveway, surreptitiously dribbling it all the way, to "shoot a few baskets." They claim that it "relaxes" them. They use the cowardly and selfish excuse that it is "natural" and "healthy," wilfully disregarding how their legal teammates might feel about his shooting baskets without them. Why can't he wait until a proper game?

Other men get their sinful kicks out of watching others play basketball. They become addicted to "watching the game," and every week they habitually turn on the TV to indulge their filthy habit. They offer the excuse that it is harmless, that they are "learning useful techniques" by watching. In their minds, however, they are vicariously experiencing the excitement of scoring, the thump-thump-thump of the dribbling. How sick!

Nor do they realize that by watching this filthy display they are encouraging the exploitation of the people they are watching - people who are lured into the exploitive industry of professional basketball by the money, and who could have been spending their lives in more productive pursuits. They do not consider how lives have been ruined by watching "professional" basketball.

And finally, I cannot tell you all the things whereby ye may commit sin, even so many that I cannot number them.

But this much I can tell you, that if ye do not watch yourselves, and your thoughts, and your words, and your deeds, and observe the commandments of God, and continue in the faith of what ye have heard concerning the coming of our Lord, even unto the end of your lives, ye must perish. And now O man, remember, and perish not.

Mosiah 4:29-30

Porn can become an obsession or addiction like anything else if it interferes with your life. Like anything else, it's natural and best in moderation, not too little, not too much. Only the individual can decide where that line is for them.

(I include any sort of masturbation aid in "porn"... Videos, images, erotica (biggest selling book genre!), fantasy, romance novels, etc).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2016 04:53PM by woodsmoke.

GAs are more obsessed with porn than 99% of those who use porn to get off. Which is worse: someone with an innocuous habit they only due at home behind closed doors, or so someone obsessed with other people's private sex lives that they make up pseudomedical terms like "porn addiction" and attribute porn to divorces? The only reason anyone gets divorced over porn is because his/her spouse has been trained that porn is evil and he/she overreacts.

It's kind of black and white thinking to suggest that anything is NEVER a problem for anyone. Plenty of people have lost their jobs because they can't stop masturbating or watching porn at work, or replace sex with a live partner with porn. That could easily lead to divorce. That doesn't make porn bad, it makes any obsession with anything bad.

The way Mormons address everything is a problem. Drinking is not inherently bad, but would you say it's never a problem for anyone and has never led to divorce? Of course not. Shopping can be an obsession, Internet use, eating, anything. Everything in moderation. The answer is never to go in excess or to ban or shame something. If people feel something is a problem, they should have resources to help. No judgment here. To make a blanket statement about anything (the ONLY reason?) is usually incorrect, though. A militant stance on anything is usually wrong.

I said nothing about GAs or Mormons being correct about anything, because they're not. You're equating "porn is best in moderation and is occasionally an obsession for a few people" with "Mormons are sometimes right about porn," and nobody said that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2016 11:30AM by woodsmoke.

http://psychcentral.com/news/2014/02/13/exploding-the-myth-of-porn-addiction/65835.html

"Describing someone as a porn addict may make for catchy headlines, but in reality, there is no strong scientific research that shows such addictions actually exist."

"All told, the research found very little evidence — if any at all — to support some of the purported negative side effects of porn “addiction.” There was no sign that use of pornography is connected to erectile dysfunction, or that it causes any changes to the brains of users.

"Also, despite furor over the effects of childhood exposure to pornography, the use of sexually explicit material explains very little of the variance in adolescents’ behaviors. These are better explained and predicted by other individual and family variables.

"Instead, Ley and his team believe that the positive benefits attached to viewing such images do not make it problematic de facto.

"For example, viewing pornography can improve attitudes towards sexuality, increase the quality of life and variety of sexual behaviors, and increase pleasure in long-term relationships.

"It provides a legal outlet for illegal sexual behaviors or desires, and its consumption or availability has been associated with a decrease in sex offenses, especially child molestation."

Since I never once used the phrase "porn addiction," I don't know who you're arguing with, but it ain't me. No sources needed. Never suggested it was a thing. It's been proposed by the APA as a category for the DSM but I'm dubious. You can see from my other posts in the thread that I'm pro porn use and masturbation for both women and men. Not sure of what all that "proof" is for since I never suggested porn itself was unhealthy in any way. Quite the opposite.

I assume you would agree that spending, gambling, Internet use, eating, drinking, exercise, and working are all best done in moderation, not excess. Porn use doesn't apply...why?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2016 12:15PM by woodsmoke.

Yes, yes, yes! It's another example of the church creating a problem so they can sell you the solution

I love this analogy. People look down on masturbation, but there's no difference between that and getting in a little basketball practice before the "big game". If you want to be good at anything you need to practice first. And some people just enjoy playing with their balls. Nothing wrong with doing something just for the fun of it.

Wish I could find the talk so I could give credit where it is due but the gist was;

Men who masturbate realize they have no need for a woman to have satisfaction or release of tensions so they delay or never get married.

Oh and thus are selfish and have no future tithe payers AKA kids.

So romantic. "Hey, baby. My hand is tired -- wanna get married so I can give it a rest?"

If "use" and the relation of total self-giving/receptivity are mutually exclusive, and if the latter is bound to the notion of person, then pornography is morally contraindicated — it reduces subjects to be given and received in a mutual exchange of love into mere "objects" that are to be used, manipulated, and finally discarded as soon as their users exhaust them of their utility.

If the sexual faculty has reproduction as its end, then masturbation is likewise morally contraindicated: the act wills reproduction and non-reproduction at the same time and in the same respect, thus violating the principle of non-contradiction — the first principle of rationality. If human nature is intrinsically rational, then masturbation, like all irrational acts, only ends up undermining one's humanity.

This approach of evaluating the (im)morality of pornography and masturbation differs from the argument from authority: "Don't do this, just because *I* say so, and that's that." That's the impression I get when examining the Mormon condemnation of pornography and masturbation. When pushed far enough, such an argument ends up making its condemnation entirely arbitrary: a fickle command from a fickle deity via the instrumentality of fickle representatives to whom you must submit just because they're bigger than you and can easily beat you up if you don't do what they say.

so any pleasure derived is irrational?

"Don't knock masturbation. It's sex with someone I love!" - Woody Allen

...in Annie Hall) were NOT people who loved themselves.

sounds like you are ranting total B.S.once again.


You have no idea wtf you are talking about.

Now that he's banging his stepdaughter he doesn't need to beat off so much.

... but I'm not a quitter!

When I was a missionary we were only allowed to read the missionary handbook, deseret published books like Jesus the Christ and the Ensign.

Whenever I looked at something like a Time magazine or a regular book having nothing to do with the church I felt dirty. After my mission it took me quite awhile to not feel guilty about reading books and magazines.

Conditioning.

Like the war on drugs, the war on porn causes more problems than it solves. As you say, it makes everyone think its worse than it is. Wives are convinced their husband hates them if he looks at another woman. No sympathy for the fact that god programmed us that way. Imagine inflicting the same guilt on those who like to eat.

Of course the other reason women react so violently to men looking at porn is it threatens their power. Sex is a commodity, traded for money. Like any commodity, the greater the supply, the lower the price that can be demanded. So if a husband can have another outlet other than the wife, she loses market value. Basic economics.

I was thinking about this today when my wife was looking at photos of a Vanderbilt estate back east, with exorbitant mansions. I should have felt insecure and unwanted, since she was lusting after the wealth of another man, right? Like the house I provided isn't good enough. This is the kind of thinking on the minds of women when their guy looks at another woman. Which is why she loves it when her guy has to subject himself to discipline by church leaders - puppets for the wives.

I ran across this site while researching this subject. The reaction of this woman is ridiculous, but she's been trained that way. My non-mo friends show their wives nude photos of other women, and they reply that "she looks nice."

The treatment of her husband - public shaming, is abuse, but since he's a guy, we really don't care. Parade him in front of the ward for all to see!

http://www.mormonwomen.com/2011/01/12/when-pornography-hits-home/

He then told me we needed to talk. I knew it must be more serious, but I had no idea of the gravity of what was going to come out his mouth. His first words were, “My problems all started with pornography.” My stomach went into an upheaval. I felt like I needed to run to the bathroom and throw up, but I couldn’t really move. I felt like I was having an out of body experience. He was very sad and apologetic. He told me he had an upcoming church court; that’s what the meeting with the bishop had been about. I was heartbroken and didn’t really know how to react.

I'm sorry you clearly had a bad experience with a woman.

Many women watch porn and enjoy sex. They are actually proven to watch much more adventurous porn than men do. Straight women often prefer group, BDSM, and lesbian porn.

http://www.bustle.com/articles/118394-this-is-how-many-women-watch-porn-every-week

A third of women watch porn every week. Many more read erotica (which is clearly porn) or use audio porn.
Your assertion implies that it is all men who use it. Very false.

http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2015/10/22/study-finds-that-1-out-of-3-women-watch-porn-at-least-once-a-week/

Mormon women are shamed for their "porn" proclivities as well.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2003/07/addicted-to-romance-novels?lang=eng
"Often when we hear about the evils of pornography, we think of pornographic magazines, movies, and Web sites. Because men are more visually oriented, such material seems to appeal primarily to them. Yet the sexually explicit literature targeted at women, who are more verbally oriented, can be damaging as well. Like visual pornography, such literature presents a warped view of sexuality and is arousing and addictive. It dulls our spiritual senses, which distances us from God, and it can impair our ability to have healthy, lasting relationships.

Sexual sin of any degree can be difficult to overcome. But with the Lord’s help, it can be conquered. How grateful I am for the Lord, who made repentance and forgiveness possible."



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2016 01:50AM by woodsmoke.

Actually, I was on the lower end of the spectrum. 30 to 86% of women use porn alongside 50 to 99% of men according to APA estimates.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2014/04/pornography.aspx

Can you please stop whining about how much women hate sex and porn now?

LOL!! I have loved porn since I was a kid and discovered a Playboy magazine stashed under a neighbor's house. What can I say...I've always liked naked women...so shoot me. Fortunately, my gal likes porn as much or more than I do. Life is good.

I've always enjoyed naked everything. ;) No need for gun violence here!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2016 05:36PM by woodsmoke.

Free Man, in the article you cited the husband stated to his wife that his "problems began with pornography." Later the article states that her husband was excommunicated. I have never heard of anyone being excommunicated for masturbation or for looking at porn. It is obvious that this man's "problems" had escalated to include acts for which he was excommunicated.

I personally know people who have risked their careers, marriages, and families to get a "sex fix" any way they can. Their "problems" also started with pornography.

Your whole argument that the body of a woman is an economic commodity that loses market value is completely misogynistic! Women are human beings, not commodities. It is men like you that women hate, and for good reason.

+++

I would also point out that mormon behavior is not the societal norm. "Most" women would be embarrassed to publicly state they felt threatened by hubby's porn. What that mormon did was ugly mormon tactics. Shaming and shunning are for divorces and mormons, not regular folk who hope to stay married. What you'll find in mainstream magazines are stories of wife or girlfiend finding she overcame her insecurities, learned how exciting it could be, and recommends it to all, yoohoo.

Free man, I keep hoping you'll figure out that women are no more and no less faulty than men. I really hope that at some point, for your own sake, you can set that kool-aid down, because it's only going to hurt you if you don't.

I think that masturbation and sex is evil, because that is what MORmONISM has taught me, and we all know that MORmONISM is true. We all know that MORmON leaders only want what is best for us, which is MORmON holiness,which is why they teach about how evil that sex is. ......I do not understand why the MORmON ASSpostHOLES do not go all the way in MORmON Holiness. All the MORmON ASSpostHOLES are well past the child bearing years so they no longer have a real need for their evil disgusting penises. They should all have their penises surgically removed so that they can achieve a higher form of MORmON holiness. THat way they can be even more spiritual as they preach the MORmON gospel to the world.
We all know how critically important that objective is.

RPackham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Masturbation and pornography are harmful and
> sinful ONLY because we have been artificially
> convinced that they are. The harm is not that they
> are inherently bad, but that we have been led to
> believe that they are bad.

The same is true of "bad" words. For example, we can use the clinical terms for sex and bodily functions, or cutesy euphemisms, even though they mean exactly the same thing as the "bad" words.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexuality_in_ancient_Rome

[Net Nanny Won't Let Me Include The Text]


http://anthropology.msu.edu/anp455-fs14/2014/10/23/ancient-egyptian-sexuality/


[Net Nanny Won't Let Me Include The Text]

Me read Packham.
Now me want play basketball.
Want form team? Anyone?

;-)

I read the article the person above cited about the woman named Bethany, and about how her first thought when she learned about her husband's pornography 'addiction', was to leave him. The article/interview was idiotic. Clearly, the woman had been indoctrinated with bullshit TSCC pablum about how pornography is terrible, if you view pornography it cheapens your marriage, means you don't think your wife is attractive, means you will have a disturbing/unfufilling/satanic sex life. Furthermore, talks from general conference have repeated stories of women who FELT like their husbands found them ugly, sexually undesirable, had lied to them, and essentially cheated on them. Of course, if other women (or some women somewhere) from the church had felt like that, then of course I have to emulate these feelings, or else my reaction to this purported sin is not great enough and I'm tolerating my husband's satanic proclivities!

The article goes on to mention the husband was excommunicated. If he was excommunicated for looking at pornography, a serious miscarriage of justice was communicated by a stake president, because I know for a fact you're not supposed to be excommunicated for porn if you're a regular member (not a bishop/stake president/etc.). I can only surmise the man who's married to the bethany woman in the article had some kind of masturbatory experience with a stripper or something. I've heard of a couple other stories from pornography addicts where their 'addictions' culminated in visiting strip clubs and getting lap dances, and this is what drove them to 'confess their sins' blah blah blah. I'm not saying you should be getting lap dances from strippers if you're married; seems like something that's you and your wife's business, but just like with pornography, and all things sexual, the church is so far up your ass in the bedroom, it'll feel like a solo reacharound.

That article from the Mormon Women's project really bugged me, not only for it's content, because it really does seem to represent the status quo for all married Mormon women. Anyone who decides to break up their family because their husband looked at porn, and solely for that reason, is doing something 10000000x worse than looking at porn. When I was still going to church a few years ago, I was hearing this kind of shit at least once a month, either stories about women who really did separate, almost did, or got divorced for this shit. For a church that purports to treat marriage as so sacrosanct, they also seem to subversively encourage women to punish men who have the audacity to watch simulated or unsimulated coital pictures or videos.

I've heard anectdotes that Utah has some of the highest pornography consumption in the country. If that is the case, you can bet it's because TSCC has made it so completely taboo, combined with natural, base sexual urges that all people have.

Fuck the mormon church. Fuck it hard.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2016 02:33AM by midwestanon.