I met my now husband several years ago on a Mormon dating website but we were both inactive and never have gone back. We have been attending a Christian church for awhile, and I thought we were past Mormonism but now he has become pretty wishy washy about our new church and when pressed, says he thinks he wants to go back to Mormonism. I encouraged this, because I firmly believe that if you give the Mormons enough rope... well you know the rest.

I think Mormonism renders people pretty intellectually lazy and unable to think for themselves. He seems unwilling to even make a decision one way or another about Mormonism because his mom and sister are believers and I am not. I can respect a person's right to believe whatever they want, but I have difficulty respecting a person who is so afraid of what other people may think that they refuse to even figure out what they believe or want.

Jokingly, I once told him about lds doctrine stating that all four of OUR children belong to my ex-husband in the hereafter because ex and I were married in temple whereas hubby and I were not. Just another ridiculous thing that child-rapists brigham or Joseph came up with, but my husband actually believes this doctrine and it worries him!!!!

He seems to believe In all this LDS crap, including polygamy, because he really thinks it was impossible that a 14 year old boy could have written the book of Mormon without god's help. I am aware of all the CES letter info to the contrary, but I am not sure if presenting it would be wise. I wish he would care enough to go find the evidence himself.

For the time being he isn't trying to attend the LDS church of give them money...yet. I think that throwing away some tithing money for the sake of resolving the issue might be worth it, however. To what Degree should I push him to return to LDS church and/or read CES letter?

Does the lure of polygamy make it harder for men to mentally extricate themselves from the church? Does that keep a lot of men in that would otherwise leave?

It's no coincidence that the afterlife promises endless power and sex. This is the Mormon version of 72 virgins. A male made up his version of what heaven would be.

I guess if emotionally, if someone wants to think they can have it all in an afterlife, you end up with the bigger problem of confronting their motivation instead of discussing facts.

Ask him if he is OK if the genders are reversed. If a girl had started the church and women could have multiple husbands but the husband can't be boinking anyone else, is he OK with that?

I'm guessing he will try and defend having multiple wives by talking about child bearing or something. This argument seems silly since they are claiming they have eternity to populate their own worlds or whatever.

Ask him if he is OK with being in a church where women have the priesthood and men do not. If women are the intermediator between males and god, is he fine with that?

You might have a deeper issue involving his attitude toward women. If he is not OK with the same teaching with the genders reversed, I have a feeling that the Mormon church will perpetuate his approval of women staying in their place.

If men expect women to put up with being vessels and secondary to men they need to explain if they would believe in a god that treated men that way.

Consider reading Todd Compton's In Sacred Loneliness together. As a man, it should become apparent that Joseph Smith was using naïve women's belief as a way to tap into new tail. What a coincidence that his religion justifies it!

Have him read "In Sacred Loneliness." Her idea of reading it together is great. It was so depressing, I couldn't even finish it as an exmo, but I read most of it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2016 11:40AM by cl2.

I don't know about polygamy. You know your individual situation better than we do, but "in general" I would think that the **daily** brainwashing from the day they were born is what may make it harder to leave- that uncertainty that no matter how much it doesn't make sense and the evidence is it is all made up, there is that nagging feeling that "what if it IS true?"

If his family was raised TBM (especially in the Morridor) then being mormon is not just a religion, it is a cultural identity. Many people have difficulty separating the two. Maybe what he needs or is missing is just some mormon culture back to his roots, without the religion.

I would stop attending any church for right now and just enjoy your Sundays together. Suggest to your husband that you both take an indefinite break from church. I wouldn't press him to go back to the Mormon church. Consider that it's perfectly okay if he doesn't know what he does or does not believe, and isn't particularly concerned about it one way or another.

Mormonism is what he grew up with and it probably represents his comfort level, whether he fully believes in it or not.

I don't agree. First give him the CES letter and perhaps more. Staying in the OPs church provides the choice for her DH. Otherwise he will feel he has nowhere else to go but TSCC.

It doesn't sound like he's comfortable there. He might like another church, but the current one doesn't seem to be working for him.

I would talk to him about the Book of Abraham. Have him spend 30 mins online, and he will find out it was a completely fraudulent book, and tgerefore that JS was very capable of being completely fraudulent.

Therefore you can't trust anything JS said.

Can't trust anything!

"because he really thinks it was impossible that a 14 year old boy could have written the book of Mormon without god's help"

I apologize if this comes off as rude, but… does your husband even know how to add and subtract?

JS was 14 at the time of his phony 1st Vision. The BOM came *ten years* after that. Why do Mormons think that JS didn't age during that time span, and he was still 14 when the BOM was being written? Intellectually lazy, indeed.

He was a full 24, and had been married three years, when he published the BOM (and tried to sell its copyright in Canada). In contrast, Mary Shelley was 20 when "Frankenstein" was published.

"How could a 14 year old boy write the BOM" is one of the most irritating arguments in all of Mormondumb.

The problem with a LOT of Mormons is that they know very little of their own church's history. They remember hearing about the 14-year-old humble, prayerful, Bible-reading Joseph Smith being visited by God and Jesus in 1820; but they fail to grasp the fact that he didn't publish the BOM until 1830, when he was 24.

On top of that, there's no evidence to support Smith's claims of having an 1820 visit from God and Jesus. The historical record clearly shows that from about 1822 to at least 1826 (ages 17 to 21) Joseph Smith was charging people money to pretend to see buried treasures. In March of 1826, he was arrested and tried on those charges. It was 1.5 years after that, in September 1827, when he began talking about the angel and the golden plates.

MidwestExmo, if your husband wants to learn about the true origins of Mormonism, I strongly suggest that you encourage him to read the excerpts from early newspaper articles at

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1506373,1506777#msg-1506777

For a scholarly treatment of this subject, I recommend:

http://sidneyrigdon.com/criddle/rigdon1.htm

AMEN. People of all ages write books far longer and more complex than the BOM all the darn time.

This is from my Great Grandmother's story. She became a young widow and remarried as wife #2 to another man who ended up having three wives:
--" For security from the law, the children grew up under the name of Westover. On the ward records, in school, etc., they would be called by either name, but generally were called Westover and Joanna was often spoken of as "Widow Westover". The children respected him, but usually spoke of him as Brother DeSpain. Eventually the family was advised by church authorities to continue using the name of Westover, as they were all born in the covenant to their mother and her first husband, Lycurgus Westover.
There were seven children born of this union of Joanna and Henry: "

So, it is true that all children born in the covenant would become the children of the first husband unless a Temple Cancellation was performed from the first husband.

You mentioned the name DeSpain. When I was in Primary, I had a lovely teacher named Lelani DeSpain. I think she had previously been a Hoover. Any relation to you?

Well, I don't know. As the story above says, many of my Westover cousins don't have a clue that they're actually Despains. The kids called their biological father "Brother Despain" and always used the last name of Westover.

Henry Despain had 13 kids with wife #1, 7 (Westover kids) with my Great Grandmother, who was Wife #2 and I believe 6 with Wife #3. Wife #1 & 3 used "Despain" as their last name and their kids.

Henry Despain actually moved to Heber, AZ and helped set up that pioneer town. So if you're friend's ancestors came from one of the Northern AZ pioneer towns (Joseph City, Woodruff, Snowflake, Heber, St. Johns, etc...) there is probably a good chance.

Only the first two offspring of Lycurgus and Joanna Westover (she had 9 children--7 youngest from Despain's sperm) all of them called themselves and thought themselves "Westover"; not Despain.

We must be distantly related. My dad's uncle was Richard Westover, who was the grandson of Edwin Lycurgus Westover and Joanna Erickson. Richard and Wilma used to live two houses down from us, many years ago. I think that Richard's father Albert would have been one of the Despain children.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2016 02:38AM by Kismet.

Yes, Albert was one of the Despain offspring but kept the name Westover; which is a made up name anyway since it was a Swedish name. The Scandinavian surnames are hard to trace because of the usage of the previous father (i.e. Johnson, Johannson, Ericsson, etc...) The surname would change every generation, but Westover anglicanized probably from the word westhoven. Most are in PA, WI and IL where many Germanic, Netherlands, Swedes settled.

I don't know if you can log on to familysearch or not but if you can you can read Henry's history here:

https://familysearch.org/photos/stories/8231958?returnLabel=Henry%20Waters%20Despain%20(KW6D-VZJ)&returnUrl=https%3A%2F%2Ffamilysearch.org%2Ftree%2F%23view%3Dancestor%26person%3DKW6D-VZJ%26section%3Dmemories

MidwestExmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He seems to believe In all this LDS crap,
> including polygamy, because he really thinks it
> was impossible that a 14 year old boy could have
> written the book of Mormon without god's help.

Not even the church claims a 14 year-old Smith "translated" the book of mormon. He seems rather confused.

Smith was born in 1805. The BoM was finished in 1830. Even the church (in their "history" which contradicts facts) insists that most of the "translation" work was done in 1829, when he was 24.

Smith never said anything about "visions" when he was 14 until well after the church had a strong following, and even in the church's "history" Moroni didn't visit the first time until he was at least 18 -- and it was at least 3 years after that he supposedly got the plates for the first time.

Like many mormons, your DH doesn't seem to even know the "official" church history, let alone the church history based on what can be found out as factual. Don't know how far you want to go, but just letting him know that his "testimony" (which above is just an argument from personal incredulity) isn't even based on what the church says might get him thinking.

This is all very helpful so far, and no offense taken at all. I used to be ultra tbm, and I was unwilling yo consider that mormonism was a scam until I felt personally violated by it. But I a woman. Does the same hold true for most men?

Yes. Men also have been violated and figuratively castrated by moism.

Direct from the lds.org links. You will find them listed here. Then pick a point and do real research on it.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1180178

He wasn't 14 when he "wrote" the BOM. He was college age...and still did a crappy job.

It seems to be very difficult to completely change or give up early childhood religious teachings for many people. It is accepted as the truth at the time, and highly ingrained as valuable, often with fear elements for those that do not continue to adhere to it. Faith based beliefs are very powerful. More powerful than factual evidence or the lack of it.

I'm confused. You see Mormonism as untrue, yet you go to another church?

Please post the name of this other church and let us rip it apart.

I mean, which is more true, Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

I definitely think you need to be proactive in keeping him from returning. You must combat the powerful force of his indoctrination. You can't risk him taking the kids along for the ride.

The problem is doing it without coming off as anti, and getting him defensive. Giving him the CES letter seems reasonable, and have himread "No Man Knows My History" if possible.

Could you take the missionay lessons with him and discuss it after?

If he goes back, he is going to constantly be told you are evil for not being there with him. Let him know how hurtful it is that he would believe a system that tries to divide families. Have any kids who are gay?

Is your hubby a Picses?

Whatever you do, don't subject your children to the Mormon church. Or any racist, sexist, cultish organization. Your kids deserve better.

Mormonism is cultish and has become even more so over the years. The admonishments to 'Obey the prophet' Obey the leaders' has become more frequent than ever. Blind obedience, your money, and control is what they want.

Not to mention their unhealthy obsession with sex. No other church has grown men interview children behind closed doors, about sexual thoughts and actions. Extremely perverted.

If your husband wants to go to the Mormon church, that is one thing. Hope you can keep an open dialog with him, and he will look at all sides.

But don't let the Mormons get a hold of your children.

MidwestExmo Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------
> I think Mormonism renders people pretty
> intellectually lazy and unable to think for
> themselves. He seems unwilling to even make a
> decision one way or another about Mormonism
> because his mom and sister are believers and I am
> not.

> I can respect a person's right to believe
> whatever they want, but I have difficulty
> respecting a person who is so afraid of what other
> people may think that they refuse to even figure
> out what they believe or want.

Well, right there you build a strong case against marrying a MORmON.

> Does the lure of polygamy make it harder for men
> to mentally extricate themselves from the church?
> Does that keep a lot of men in that would
> otherwise leave?

Even as enticing as polygamy might seem, it is NOT the big emotional anchor to staying in MORmONISM. It is the Mom / Mother that you already mentioned. There is a chance that his attachment to THE church might lessen dramatically when his MORmON mother dies, or IF she quits MORmONISM.

My stupid ass MORmON parents were so busy doing THE bidding or THE church that I never emotionally bonded with them as a child. I bonded with my MORmON grandparents. As soon as those grandparents were deceased then the emotional door for me to exit MORmONISM swung wide open, much to the chagrin of my stupid ass MORmON parents who had no idea what had a really happened other than the obvious which was that I had quit their stupid church/ religion/ CULT.

I would think that Polygamy is more disturbing to him than it is a lure. I don't remember anyone admitting that they were excited about it. For those who are more interested it is probably more of a power thing for them.

...Well ask him to watch this video. Then realize that Mormon missionaries are now in countries where polygamy is legal and practiced, telling men to toss away their 2nd, 3rd and 4th wives (which may be 12-17 yr old non-virgins and unwanted women).

https://www.facebook.com/WOMENSRIGHTSNEWS/?fref=nf

Or talk to him about the Warren Jeffs http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/03/warren-jeffs-prosecution-_n_916968.html

JS was a pedophile raping children and he was an adult when he "wrote" the BoM. Except he didn't actually do that. He plagiarized. Any 14 year old could have done that. It is called copying. But he needed to wait until he was older even to do that. JS was not the brightest bulb but he was a master malipulator/control freak.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2016 03:43PM by verilyverily.

If your husband was inactive and even attended another church, I think he would be open to studying the truth about the church. I'd give him the CES Letter, FAIR's rebuttal to it and Jeremy Runnells rebuttal to FAIR's rebuttal.

Tell him there are serious problems to the foundational claims of Mormonism and that the CES letter does a good job of presenting them. But tell him you are also providing the response to the letter from the apologists from the church. Tell him it is up to him to read BOTH sides and come to his OWN conclusion.

He might be open to studying the issues if he understands you won't push him to believe one way or another. Only that he be open to studying the evidence.


I'd also print off the following and leave it lying around the house:
http://home.teleport.com/~packham/tract.htm

Polygamy may hold the same morbid fascination for some as it did for joe the libido ...like most things in life..thinking about doing them beats the seeds out of doing them...its a disgusting..manipulative...abusive lifestyle...mind you there is a segment of society who believe this is just ducky...in the old days they called them mormons...little men seeking power trips gravitate to this lifestyle...heady stuff...any one wants to try it out...knock yourself out...dont say i didnt warn ya..and i will say i told you so...try not to ruin too many lives plus your own