Our pastor I beleive will be ok. I wondered where he went last night at the Easter Vigil Mass but it was dark. Erractic heartbeat...no heart attack.

This priest guided me through an awful time in my life. Jake and I divorced and then to make matters worse, I remarried and that was a huge mistake. It ended quickly. The boys attended Catholic elementary school and the priest asked me one day if I was Catholic. So I said I use to be but life got complicated. We had many discussions on the topic. But the first thing he said was to go through the process of having my marriages declared invalid by the Marriage Tribunal of the Diosese. The process is long, involved and really awful. All the pages of questions, finding your exs.. My second husband just said do what you want and signed away his rights to say anything.

But for whatever reason, I didn't include Jake in the proceedings because I never felt our marriage was invalid. That would of be a huge lie. My priest asked me about that and I told the truth, I can't do that, it wasn't invalid. He respected my decision. Long story short, the Tribunal declared my second marriage invalid. My priest told me if I ever wanted to be married in the Catholic church it couldn't happen since I was in the eyes of the Church married to Jake. Since I wasn't seeing anyone, or having sex it didn't matter to me. I didn't plan to get married again anyway. No one wants to be a three time loser.

Finally I came back home to the Catholic Church, knowing no Catholic marriages. Even though the CC doesn't recognize a Mormon baptism, they do recognize a marriage between a Catholic or any other Christian and a Mormon.

So in the eyes of the Catholic Church Jake and I are still married...but not in a legal sense. If that makes any sense.

I did forget to tell his Mom that little bit of information. Perhaps that will turn her hair white over night. Or she will say in the way only she can do. Well, Catholics have no authority over Mormons. But the thought that someone somewhere considers us still married will bother her to no end.

Really like this priest, he pulled me through and was always there for me when I needed help. I needed a lot of help because I was a real mess for a while. People some times come into your life at times they're needed, he sure did.

stormy

your inner assurance & confidance in your life, your serenity & lack of guilt or concern, your lack of anxiety- this is the basis of a grand love in life.

why engage or connect in any way? who are you feeding here? your lives are not a re enactment of the middle ages feuds between religion nor are they a re enactment between feuding land holding clans.

at any rate, from what you've told, the only argument, and the strongest argument, is solely the one that comes from the son to the mother setting boundaries & demonstrating loyalty to his siginificant other instead of his mother.

dramatic exchange or declarations serve only to divert from the most singular significant investment- the only investment of the only party in power in this matter ---
and that is the son, of the mother & your husband..... not anything you say or do matters a bit if he doesn't say it himself unprompted as a man to his mom.

being prompted like a puppet, or saying or responding to what he was asked to talk about-- it still doesn't come from HIM, the son putting his love, his own family first and refusing to put his mama first.

what is there for you to say anymore or anyways? if he won't say it himself, from himself, from his own self, speaking an adult- of his own choice, with no prompting- to his mama, putting his loyalty with you his lover/wife, you know, it just won't hold water/ hold the line/ put the loyalty with you.

he has to say it- it has to come from him. it isn't anything about you, incidentally, it is an issue of him- he has got to be mature & strong enough to not follow mama, jump when she calls, and say one thing to her and another to you, and pretend not to hear her, or get insistant with you to put up with -------------not with 'her' (if that is ever what he said) ----------but to put up with HIM letting ANYONE dis you (disrespect you) the mother of his children. HE has to say things

you do not need another line or statement, or argument in ANY WAY with the woman. It has to, to mean anything, to make any difference at all, to be effective - it has to come from him.

the problem is him. you arguing for or near or getting in arguing- is beggin the question- how loyal will he be? will he stand up in there for me? stop stirring it up. get on with your sweet life. let this man you want to be loyal to show you- prove it.

not you phone call or reach out and argue. presently incidentally if you appear to harangue or turn someone's hair white the week their spouse had a heart valve surgery it doesn't look all that classy- you would hate to have your spouse throw that back at you in regret or rage later. really.

besides its his wretched family let him yell & argue at them. he will do that won't he? stand his ground & support you agains this family?

because that's the point

Actually her treatment of me has always been an issue. There's only so much jake can do about that..you can't make anyone change how they act..not possible..we are just changing our approach to her.

Unless you have felt the condemnation she has dished out it would be difficult for you to know what you would do under the same circumstances..so far I don't say
much..
It'll work out because we will make sure it does.

I won't be able to join you though because I live far away.

To answer your other question, I don't know about Ireland's common wife laws. The couple lived together and shared assets for about 15 years, but she doesn't seem to have any rights other than the fact she refuses to leave the house. But I simply don't know the law.

Stormy feels the way she does from remembering the past. It takes a long time to trust in the present and the future. That type of trust doesn't come easy. She has every right to want to lash out at my mother but she doesn't. She would of 6 years ago. She would of picked up the phone and told her exactly what she thought and not be nice about it. Now she tells me and you all.

Concerning the catholic church and the invalidity of a marriage. It surprised me when she told me, she didn't include ours because she never considered it invalid. Neither did I.

The Catholic Church has their Canon laws. You have to do it according to them. Just as the Mormon Church has their procedures. Not to say they are right or wrong. They are what they are.

At this point, the work focuses on boundaries. Since geography is a great boundary, that works for us. Seeing as caller ID is a great alert, that works also. Seeing as I now know what needs to be in a marriage, that works even better.

If I need to be Catholic, fine. I will gladly do that. I enjoy going to mass with stormy and the boys. It centers all of us.

Hopefully my mother will let it be. If she doesn't, well then she is not welcome here. She knows that so it is up to her. I won't lost stormy again. It won't happen, I won't let it. I screwed up once but not again.

I won't say a word to her...his Dad is more important now than she is. I will let Jake address what he will do. But I expect him to do all the things you have mentioned and maybe some you didn't. Not only do I expect it, I know he will.

stormy

...Catholic church were consummated. My mom had to become Catholic before she was allowed to marry on a Catholic church. My dad got his marriage to my mom annulled so he could get re-married. I was 16 and it was a huge deal. His mom, a Catholic, was interviewed, my mom's mom, not Catholic was interviewed. My mom had to answer a long questionnaire. We kids weren't involved. My dad was supposed to counsel us. I was the only one living with him at the time and he just handed me a pamphlet. It told me that even after my parents marriage was ruled to never have happened I shouldn't "consider yourself a bastard."

I think it is awful to pronounce that a marriage never happened when Catholics go for an annulment where there are children. That is just sick. It was real, and many produced wonderful children all to be thrown to the wind like it never occurred. I don't find a lot of fault with the Catholic church but I do with that one. I remember the big hoo-ha when this was a subject when a Kennedy family member was getting an annulment. The other party fought it as I would have. Children don't deserve such treatment from a Church. And this is all because they don't like the word Divorce, right?

When the Catholic Church declares a marriage invalid, that doesn't mean the kids suddenly become illegitimate.

The Catholic Church teaches that marriage is one of seven sacraments. And a sacrament is something that makes an indelible mark upon the soul.

Marriage is a contract between two adults, and both parties must enter into the contract with full knowledge of the sacramental nature and the role expected of them in participating in the contract.

Marriages fail for many reasons, and the Marriage Tribunal performs its investigation to see if the contract was entered in to by both parties, will full intent to participate in the expectations of the marriage. The Tribunal does not function like a divorce court, which usually functions to find fault with one or both parties as to why the marriage failed. There is no dissection of "who did what" and a determination of the bad guy and the good guy.

The Tribunal is seeking to find as to whether or not the original intent of the contract was valid. One party "forced" to become Catholic can be a reason as to why the contract is in question. A lack of understanding of the sacramental validity of marriage can void the contract.

Many people think that a person who is Catholic and has been divorced in a civil court can never be a "full Catholic" again. In too many instances, people struggle and complain about "Catholic rules and their unfairness," only to be hobbled by what THEIR interpretation of the rules are, not what the Church teaches. It has nothing whatsoever with "not liking the word Divorce."

~VOW

Thanks for explaining the process so well.

stormy

Still does not explain the situation of a man who just wants out but has nothing to pin on his wife. He is involved in an affair and want to remarry his new honey. He and wife were just FINE for twenty yrs. and then he up and bolts. Sorry but searching to find fault with the "original intent of the contract" doesn't cut it with me. It is possible to find all kinds of excuses for a person who wants out....but his or her spouse did nothing wrong.

I know a lady who refused to give her Catholic hubby a divorce. This is in PA. I was proud of her stand. She never wanted another person. He wanted her to look bad and she wouldn't take it. Guess the priest couldn't find a thing wrong with her either. He never got to marry the other woman and ten yrs. later he died. His WIFE got the money she was due. Not the woman who broke up a happy family.

Marriages aren't annulled in the catholic church, they are declared invalid from the beginning due to one of many reasons..marriages can be annulled civivally for a number of reasons..or people can be divorced..

stormy

It was, and it was called an annulment by the Catholic church. It took a little over a year. I don't remember the reason.

I wasn't married in the catholic church..that's not an issue..but the church recognizes other marriages as valid..

No children are considered illegitimate by the catholic church as long as their parents are legally married.

stormy

Here's a little more info on the nature of Catholic marriage, just as an FYI:

-the church does not recognize civil (legal) marriages as valed, since they are not sacramental. However, couples are expected to get a civil lisence as required by the law of the nation/country they live in. For this reason, if the church declares a marriage invalid because the sacrament was never truly present, the children are legal; that is; not illegitimate. For this reason you will also never hear a priest say in the course of a wedding ceremony: 'by the power vested in me by the state of . . ' because the church does not recognize the civil union.

-there are only a handful of reasons the church will declare a marriage invalid: Pauline privilege (one of the parties is an unbeliever), which is exceptionally rare since the church will not marry a couple when one is not baptized or declares him or herself to be atheist, or when one person was coerced (as in the bride was pregnant and daddy made her do it, etc.); or when one party was mentally impaired (think drunk, high or mentally ill with schizophrenia, etc,) or last, when one party makes the vows but has no intention of keeping them. That last one was the one that got Princess Caroline of Monaco's annulment from her first husband, Phillipe Junot back in 1980--he was already sleeping around on her on the honeymoon yacht.

-as far as annulments go: a local tribunal reviews, interviews and decides and all annulments cost the same amount. Which is to say, they cost a nominal fee that covers the ecclesiastical court costs (around $600-900). You can't buy an annulment. If the local tribunal rejects your petition, you can appeal. You can also appeal to the Holy See, but that's rare and it takes years. An annulment usually takes 9 months to a year.

-divorced Catholics can still participate in the sacraments. If they remarry, they cannot, they are considered to be living in a state of sin (so are those who are 'shacked up' btw) and should know better than to try to participate. A lot of to do was made about Ted Kennedy receiving communion after his second marriage--but he probably did get an annulment: what most folks don't know is that his first wife was nearly expelled from both her Catholic high school and college for drinking (her rich daddy got her out of trouble both times). She was an alcoholic long before she got into that Kennedy mess. Alcoholics tend to find each other.

-which leads to my last point about marriage and annulment: you just don't know. And one of the major components of going before the tribunal is agreeing to be silent to protect the privacy of the families involved. Too bad Princess Diana and Prince Charles didn't have anything like that!

Hope this helps.

I got an annulment in the 80's in Sunnyvale, CA from my first husband (3 children). Cost $0 and the reason was "immaturity". I was 17, he was 19.

It took a year.

Anagrammy

Yeah, kids graduated from Homestead High--we went to Resurrection and even though we are atheist/agnostics now, we went back to the parish for my mother's funeral.

I never forgot the beautiful speech the priest gave at my son's funeral, and we were not what you'd call frequent fliers at the Catholic Church by any means. He comforted me without any preaching or condemnation, which is not easy to do when a young person dies of a drug overdose.

Unbeknownst to me at the time, my 16 year old daughter had said to her brother before he returned to Utah, "I hope you die." This priest, who's name I forgot long ago, saved her--she was practically suicidal. And I was in no condition to even notice.

I live in Piedmont now, in the East Bay. The exmos meet once a month in the city at the Ferry Building. You should come up--2:00pm first Sunday of the month in front of Peets Coffee. Look for the PostMo sign.

Best,

Anagrammy
ps- email me at my name at gmail if you have questions!

anagrammy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I got an annulment in the 80's in Sunnyvale, CA
> from my first husband (3 children). Cost $0 and
> the reason was "immaturity". I was 17, he was 19.
>
> It took a year.
>
> Anagrammy

You were lucky! At that age, you probably were way too young. And many parishes pick up the charges for their couples, depending on the circumstances--my point was that annulments can't be bought.

The 'immaturity' excuse has gone the way of the dinosaur. It arose out of compassion for kids who married way too early, before they understood marriage or even knew each other well.

These days, with people waiting longer and pre-marital preparation required, kids that young or immature would be stopped pretty quickly! My dh and I have been part of the sponsor couples for nearly 20 years.

We covered topics like discussing money and budgets, different/changing expectations, family of origin, raising children, and compatable lifestyle choices. So what do Mormon couples do for (if at all) marriage preparation?

It's called grave lack of descretionary judgement now.

stormy

Joan and Ted Kennedy both had serious doubts about getting married and didn''t know each other very well, but her father insisted the marriage go on because he didn't want the embarrassment of seeing his daughter rejected. Both were very young also. That could have been groundds for an annulment

I was referring to a younger Kennedy. Can't remember which one.

Joseph P Kennedy II, Robert Kennedy's oldest son.

His first wife was Episcopalian, if I remember correctly. She did NOT want the marriage dissolved, and believed that her husband was granted a Church annulment simply because he was a Kennedy. She even wrote a book about her experience.

~VOW

Patrick

stormy

Our marriage was legal not sacramental...but a declaration of invalidity for my second marriage was needed.

If jake converts, and we married in the catholic church then the issues are resolved..not worrying about that now, we have time for that if he chooses to be catholic..i will not give him up if he decides not to...i will give up my religion rather than lose him again..i won't do that.
stormy

For those who don't know or remember me, I'm married to an Irishman. We married when we were both living in California; a few years ago we moved to Ireland to live. (For reasons that don't matter for this story, we now live in Salzburg.)

So the events that follow took place in Ireland, governed by Irish law or convention and Catholic practice or Cannon law:

As a teenager, my husband's brother fell in love with his first cousin, who lived in Wales but visited Ireland during the summers. When the families realised this, they kept the two apart. (Let's call them P-man and P-woman because they both have similar names beginning with P.)

P-man eventually married someone else and had two children with her. P-woman remained single, living in Wales. P-man was drinking as an alcohol at this point in his life. Then he quit drinking and shortly after separated from his wife.

This was in the late 80s, and divorce was illegal -- unobtainable -- in Ireland. Couples who couldn't work things out separated and lived separate lives. Some got involved in relationships and lived with their new partners and that's how things still work for many, though divorce is obtainable now. P-man and his wife separated, but took no legal action because none was available.

Then P-man began seeing his cousin, P-woman, again. He requested an annullment from the church and obtained it. Then he requested and obtained a dispensation to marry her in spite of the consanguinity (first cousins), and so they were married by a priest in the Catholic church.

That was about 15 years ago. Now P-man has tired of P-woman and wants to dissolve the relationship. She does not want that, but he is insistent.

I have only learned in the last year that he never got a divorce from his first wife, so legally he is still married to wife No One. The church recognises his second marriage, which is sacramental under cannon law. Because P-woman was made redundant (laid off) around the time he told her he wanted to separate, she has no income. How the state will determine what benefits she may be entitled to -- does his income count or not? -- I don't know. But as far as he's concerned, he's still married to wife one.

I don't know how this plays out, but it's a weird Irish story, I think. Weird mixture of legal status and sacramental status-cannon law.

My opinion of my brother-in-law is as low as it gets, however. He may be sober, but he's still a selfish ass.

Do they have any common law wife laws?

Just curious.

Anagrammy

The ban on divorce in Ireland has led to many situations like this. People are in legal or canon limbo, even while the Catholic church has declared that limbo no longer exists.