About 6 months ago my husband starts talking about wanting to attend a church. He is Catholic but isn't religious about attending mass. So I oblige. We get our 4 young boys ready for mass and attend. My boys were a little bit loud, but were mostly good. About halfway through the mass an usher asks us to leave and get a babysitter for our kids for next time. My poor husband was so embarrassed. My husband then asks if I want to try my Mormon church. I had a moment of weakness and thought, what could it hurt? They are pretty tolerant of children.

I found out what ward we are supposed to go to and next Sunday we try again. We get our 4 boys dressed in their Sunday best and drive up to the church. My oldest son is 6 years old. He has autism and is non-verbal. He does make different vocalizations though. Our other boys are 4,2, and the baby just turned 1. We get there just in time. We sit close to the back to not disrupt anyone. So far the boys are being fairly good. Once the sacrament starts my baby gets fussy and wants to nurse. I discreetly start nursing him. Nothing is showing as I don't want to offend anyone. Or heaven forbid one of the deacons see a small part of my breast. (eye roll) An older lady taps me on the back and informs me there is a nursing room I can use. I kindly decline because I don't want to leave my husband alone with the other 3 boys. Now everyone is silent. Thinking about all their sins and such. My oldest son (with autism) starts laughing like a maniac. That makes the 4 and 2 year old laugh. I'm trying to quiet them down but my oldest just can't stop. He then starts to spit. I know he's not trying to be naughty, he just doesn't understand social norms. Or maybe he does, who knows. Anyway I try and get my husbands attention and tell him to pass up on the sacrament. Too late. My 4 and 2 year old start saying, I want bread, I want bread, I want bread! Now the bishopric is staring and members keep turning around to look at us. We finally get the boys under control and distracted with small toys. Everything seem to be going okay now. My oldest boy starts saying, "dee-dee" over and over. It's not too loud. We just ignore him because he can't help it. The old bat behind me leans up and tells my boy, "Stop being disobedient and be good right now!" I turn around and give her my best fuck off face. You would think she wouldn't say anything else after my dirty look. After 5 more minutes the old bat leans up again and says to me," you should take him out and discipline him. That's whats wrong-he needs discipline." I look at my husband and we grab our boys and leave. I learned my lesson. We are now content to worship God by being out in nature on Sundays. It is now our official park day and we couldn't be any happier.

It's the best way to spend quality time as a family.

I'm sorry for the Sunday suffering in churches and hope you decide to stay away for a good long time.

nomorelies7997 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I learned my lesson. We are now content to worship God
> by being out in nature on Sundays. It is now our
> official park day and we couldn't be any happier.


There you go. Best kind of worship there is.

The old saying about "don't judge me until you've walked a mile in my shoes..." is perverted by the mormons into, "I'm judging you for not walking your miles in MY shoes!"

It sounds like a good plan to me. I think kids can learn a lot by being out in nature.

Many Catholic churches have "cry" rooms for parents with young children. You can see and hear the mass, but the room is sound-proofed from the rest of the church and you won't be disturbing other attendees. If you ever want to give it a try again you can call a particular church and ask if they have a cry room.

I will say that Catholic kids are socialized from a young age to be quiet in church. If a kid gets more than minimally noisy a parent is expected to take that child out. Mormonism seems to have a higher tolerance for noise during services.

When I was little we had a two story stake center that had a cry room. The nursery was placed up above the back of the chapel and had one way glass installed. It also had speakers so services could be heard and as well as seen.

It served as a cry room and breastfeeding room. A lot of mothers just took the youngest kids up there at the beginning of the service while the older kids sat with dad or other relatives.

When they built the new carpeted walls standardized building there was of course no cry room. I recall a lot of my mother's friends complaining about it.

Amazing how many good intelligent things the church has done away with over the years

That sounds like the 7th Ward building in Colorado Springs.

The crying rooms were relics of the baby-boom era. Most of them in my area have been converted to meeting rooms, or storage, or something.

Well, I'm a relic of the baby boom era. :) Interesting. I only rarely make it to a Catholic church anymore, and when I do it's for a funeral.

Great idea...or try a church that can meet your needs. Many churches in my area have children's church just for kids. Some even have programs specifically for kids with special needs. I personally think it's inappropriate to require 1 to 9 year olds to sit though adult church. They get little to nothing out of it and it's not a peaceful time for parents if they are looking after children and worrying about their parenting skills being judged by asshats. And yes, some children are a distraction to others who are there to worship.

Then they aren't very spiritual if they need total silence...why did God create noisy children if "He" requires silence from worshippers?

Kids are smart and uninhibited with their opinions. They know that church meetings are boring and useless. We should listen to them.

I found that all Christian religions preach against judging and, yet, I've not found one that actually practices being non-judgmental. That's why I gave up looking for a religion altogether. Finding peace in nature suits me as well.

tscc can't handle autism. my sister is dealing with a bunch of crap with her son. I keep telling her to just find some other church.

I'm sorry that lady was a bi-atch.

You kids taught you a great lesson!! What could be better than a beautiful day spent at the park with your kiddos runnin' wild and free!?!?! ;-)

I agree with Dan Bagley.

Children are not yet brainwashed, and not yet "socialized." They can pick up on bad vibes, that adults have learned to tune out.
Little kids, with undeveloped language skills, depend more on body language for communication. Your kids saw the stares and dirty looks. They saw people stiffen in their seats and clench their muscles.

The tone of voice Mormons use in their talks conveys sadness and despair. The kids might not know the meaning of all those boring words (thank goodness) but they have learned different tones of voice, out of self-preservation. The tone of Mormon talks is usually punitive, threatening, negative. My children and I would feel a sense of hopelessness and despair. Your kids definitely picked up on that old lady's disapproval. No one does well in that kind of atmosphere! Children just don't know how to hide their distress, like the adults do.

Your children had every reason to act out. They needed to get out of there! (Like my children and I did)

Your kids are not "naughty."

Obviously, your children will learn the important virtues like LOVE, putting family first, honesty, empathy, understanding, and gratitude for this beautiful life--from you, and from nature--not from any church.

Growing up in a Lutheran church I never sat through a Sunday Service (except sunrise on Easter) until 7th grade. We were in Sunday School coloring and eating cookies. We heard stories and used flannel boards. Every other kid my age was there too. Babies were in nursery. No one under 12 was in the sanctuary.

That's a great way to handle it. Kids often don't understand a lot about the service anyway. I could see being with your family in the chapel on major holidays.

Well done, you did the right thing.. Trying to chart a path that's right for you and your family..and you did!

I think my son was about 6 (with autism/nv) when I finally admitted defeat and stopped going to church. Turns out it wasn't defeat at all, but a victory.

Awww, don't worry about it. Those critical people were just jealous! All of us would like to start laughing hysterically in church meetings, but we don't have the guts to do it!

Such disgusting behavior on the part of the patrons. There shouldn't have to be special sections for kids with disabilities. If it's "God's house," they should be entirely welcome.

I agree that churches should have a place for noisy kids. Most churches that I have attended do have a nursery program for small kids and classes for older kids. If the OP wants to attend perhaps he/she should find a church with such programs or at least a cry room.However, if kids are being disruptive, whether at church or MacDonalds, parents should take them out. That is just common courtesy. I am not saying the OPs kids were that bad. I wasnt there. Maybe it was a cranky usher. As far as nursing, so long as you are covered, I dont see a problem. Better than listening to a hungry baby cry.

I simply don't agree. If you go to a public place that's free, you should expect to deal with all kinds. Especially in a place that purports to accept everyone and treat everyone as equal. This isn't a 4 star restaurant or a VIP room where you are paying for ambiance. It's church. No one should be ghettoized.

Moreover, what the woman said was far ruder than staying in the room with one's disabled kids. She disobeyed common courtesy far more than a mom having a normal day with her children.

Perhaps people who are that offended by children's noises should stay at home.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2016 12:15AM by woodsmoke.

I think it depends on the level of disruption,but I dont go to movies, church, restaurants etc to listen to screaming kids. Kids will not act like adults and certainly should be given some latitude,but still,parents need to remove kids if they are disturbing others by prolonged yelling ,tantrums etc.

I have to agree that at stores, restaurants, churches etc if your children are creating a ruckus you should leave. Perhaps I'm old school, but courtesy goes both ways. I know that people are used to their childrens proclivities, but the rest of us aren't and most people don't get or understand right away if your child is special needs.... sorry about your experience

It wasn't my experience.

And if people aren't used to people with disabilities, they should get over their entitlement and get out more. And if they don't "understand" that a kid might have special needs, perhaps it's their job to educate themselves and think critically and not the parent's job to isolate their child from "normal" (lol) people's precious eyes. If they can't understand that people have various reasons for behaving in a particular way that isn't harming them, they really need to read more.

The "old school" was, put kids with disabilities with group homes and isolate them from any chance at a life, friends, love, mainstream society, art, culture, their own families. That kind of thinking is thankfully mostly gone.

Regardless, the only one behaving disruptively in this case was that rude woman. Zero excuse for her tasteless behavior. She should have been told to shut her mouth.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2016 01:16AM by woodsmoke.

I have nothing against people or children with disabilities. I have a child with disabilities....do I expect people to know that? No. Do I expect people to be as understanding or tolerant...no. Do I expect them to say something to me? No. I don't put myself or my child in that situation. I hope people are kind, but if my child is acting out I leave the grocery cart, the store, the church etc. I try and be as courteous as I would expect of others

Amen
The child is unhappy obviously and he is disturbing others. Take the kid out of the situation where he is uncomfortable and comfort him. The added benefit is that other people can eat,worship or watch the movie in peace. Kids,even those with special needs,need to learn appropriate behavior. They arent going to learn it if the parents allow them to behave any way they like. Also, if you know your child cant handle certain.situation.and places,dont take him

Also, if you have a child with a disability you can not force them to behave how society thinks they should. It's not the parents fault. I'm certainly not going to take my son to the foyer and discipline him if he doesn't understand what he is doing is wrong.

Removing a child from.a situation where he cannot handle himself and where he is disturbing others isnt punishment.I am talking about parents who sit by oblivious that their child is screaming in a place which should be quiet such.as a church or movie. Taking him out until he can control himself is not punishment.

The lesson you learned was far more valuable than whatever nonsense was being droned over that pulpit. Congrats on getting the real message and doing the right thing for your family!

Too bad the old bat never learned the meaning of self-discipline.

tscc always has noisy kids. It is part of the whole family bullshit.

But Autism is rampant in Utah and the mo community. Utah at one time (I don't know anymore) had the highest rate of autism in the country. There are possible explanations for that, and there is some relation to religion, but regardless tscc has to figure this out.

I live in Eagle Mountain, Utah. Lots of young families with lots of kids.

There are 7 kids just on MY STREET ALONE!! They are autistic. one family has 2. Sometimes my dog is on the front porch going crazy barking, and I go to see, and there is this teen boy just standing on the sidewalk staring at her. Do I yell? No. I know what's going on. If you are a kid that is a pain in the butt and bothering the dog as you walk to school, then yeah, I will yell at you. My nephew is autistic. My older sister is autistic. My lil bro has aspergers.

So why should someone who has a disabled kid cater to everyone else's needs all the time? Do I hate it when babies are screaming in the store? Yes. But I don't say anything. I smile at the mom. I don't have any idea why the baby is screaming, and maybe he is sick and she is getting diapers and rx so she can't just leave.

If you don't know what the story is, then back off.

My nephew has been treated like shit. My sister, his mom, has been treated like shit. She lives in a very highly educated ward, and yet they are idiots. Most of them doctors, lawyers, professors. But they are still stupid Mormons, and it isn't their smarts that come out but there Mormon bias.

Are there times where it should just be perfectly quiet? Sure. But sm isn't one of them. if tscc want's it that way then they need to change the whole system.

Kids and adults both deserve activities that are suited to their age, interests and attention span. A kind person would have recognized that you could use a little help and offered to take one or more of the kids for a little walk or help to distract them.

I do have trouble understanding why parents take little children to a move that is not for little ones (Lord of the Rings I, for example.) Heck, I spent most of the movie with my eyes closed in terror!

Or, if you know that it is not in your child's power to be quietly entertained for a meal in a restaurant, why not make another choice? Take your child to Chucky Cheese or a McDonald's play area. Everybody will have more fun.

I was the oldest of 4, the first 3 stairsteps and the last born 4 years later. We almost never went to restaurants until we were in our teens--no money and no one ever accused us of being "little angels."

You might try trading off babysitting with other parents when you want to go to an adult function.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2016 02:31AM by bordergirl.

Absolutely! I didn't mean to criticize you nor your son. I've known and worked with kids with ADD and ADHD and autism. You work with kids trying to give them the tools to deal with the world. You took them where other children and families were and expected that they would be treated with understanding. That they weren't, wasn't right.

One of the reasons I choose to attend the informal "family service" at my church (even though my daughter is gone and almost through law school) is that I like the kids and their energy and honesty a lot more than I like the stodginess and "righteous indignation" in evidence at the later, more formal service.

In the event a child is having an exceptionally rough day, someone might offer to take the child out for a walk around and then bring him/her back. Usually the parent relaxes as well. No judging, just a parent recognizing when another parent can use a hand.

Actually, my son was not unhappy. He was stimming and making some noise. There are laws that are put into place to not discriminate those with disabilities. I did not take my son to a high end restaurant. I did not take my son to a movie. I took him somewhere where I thought we would be accepted. My son has a right to enjoy life. He has a right to grocery shop, even if assholes like to stare because he's vocalizing. People need to be more tolerant of the differences of others, in every religion. I'm not going to leave a family restaurant because he makes others uncomfortable. He's not hurting anyone. Tolerance and acceptance goes a long way.

The park sounds much better than that experience!
The one place you should expect tolerance, understanding, perhaps a helping hand or just a reassuring smile, being gods one true church an' all. Sadly no.

Our experiences were similar, tho to be fair, many people tried.
No one ever indicated we weren't welcome, primary teachers tried to accommodate him in classes, some people offered to find some way to help. But really, a 3hr block of complete mind numbing tedium was just never going to work for him. The members aren't trained teachers or psychologists. The only help they get is a lesson manual, and 'the spirit'. I imagine most don't want to even be there, deep down inside. Many of the mums are probably completely frazzled from trying to get their kids ready and prepare a lesson and do whatever else the stupid church requires of them.

Stupid church.

No we don't go to the movies, without an escape route and a 'meet you here' plan for my other kids.

No we don't go to restaurants, getting told off in KFC was bad enough (for staring at another diner). We recently had opportunity to take my older Childen to a restaurant. Upon leaving, one of them said "so we just leave the plates and stuff on the table? That doesn't seem right" I nearly cried later when I realised how much of life we hadn't shown them, how many experiences they have missed out on, because they have a sibling with ASD.

No, I try not to go to the supermarket/mall/shopping with him. Dear god I try.

The beach and the park are mostly what we do. We get to go camping sometimes, just overnight. And our home, which is our castle, our safe place.

Oh to walk a mile in another's shoes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2016 03:33AM by blakballoon.