The fact that you worship your church, and think your church can offer salvation by being a member and knowing some handshakes, diminishes the absolute incredible act of atonement by Jesus.

The act of atonement was anticipated by the sacrificing of firstborn male animals in 3 different types of sacrifices, for centuries, and then the drinking of wine, (yes red wine) and eating of bread in gratitude for the atonement, is the fullness of the gospel.

Your church didn't atone for you. Jesus did. Jesus decides who he will forgive and offer salvation, not your church. Your church should only be a vessel to bring you to the realization that the atonement saves.

This should be visible by the main theme of the NT, Jesus vs the Pharisees. Jesus attacked the performance based, superior minded Pharisees, but loved the sinner. The Pharisees were so hardened by their superiority, they actually killed the Son of God.

If you say you belong to the true church, you should step back and see if you resemble the Pharisees, or if you worship Jesus and all the Jesus stands for.

It's genuinely sick that Mormons believe they need the ordinances of their church to be saved. It is also sick that they believe they need to be saved in the first place.

Neither did some imaginary being.

Even presuming Jesus were real, I'd prefer being punished for my own sins. I didn't ask or expect him to pay for them.

You read his post, yet failed to understand it.

That post was not about MY beliefs, or YOUR beliefs, it was about the beliefs of TBMs.

Jesus was rather clear in the earliest gospels that he thought the end of the evil age was to occur during the current generation. Of course he was wrong.

Jesus was not killed by the Pharisees, he was killed by the Romans. It was not at all uncommon for the adherents of the various flavors of Judaism to disagree on points of the Jewish Law.

As far as I can see, Jesus really didn’t teach anything about an atonement. That was completely invented by Paul as a way to explain a “suffering Messiah.” No Jews of the time expected a suffering Messiah; they were expecting a powerful leader, not someone crushed as a criminal.

Paul spent a great deal of time trying to figure out if non-Jews should live the Jewish law. He concluded that Jesus’s resurrection must mean something apart from the Jewish law. This was his invention, not a teaching of Jesus.

But I agree with you, TSCC is more interested in everything but the teachings of Jesus. But I have a very different view than you when it comes to his actual teachings.

The Pharisees manipulated the Romans to kill Jesus.

So the Isrealites, and then the Jews practiced and kept detailed records on their history of sacrificing the first born male animals in anticipation of what???

So the fact that Jews generally don't believe Jesus was the promised first and only begotten son, but still celebrate Passover, and have for centuries, and centuries means what???

The fact that there are Dead sea scrolls that back up some of the Bible means what??

To say you don't believe is one thing, but you need to prove specific things I wrote are false and more significant than the Bible and dead Sea scrolls record

6 iron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So the Isrealites, and then the Jews practiced and
> kept detailed records on their history of
> sacrificing the first born male animals in
> anticipation of what???

Why assume any anticipation? They considered their sacrifices to be sin offerings to an angry god for forgiveness and favor. Nothing more.

> So the fact that Jews generally don't believe
> Jesus was the promised first and only begotten
> son, but still celebrate Passover, and have for
> centuries, and centuries means what???

"Passover" has nothing to do with anticipating any messiah. It's a celebration of a (fictional) event in their history, when "god" saved the faithful Hebrews.

> The fact that there are Dead sea scrolls that back
> up some of the Bible means what??

It means Jews of the 3rd-1st centuries BCE stuffed some of their "sacred writings" into jars in a cave.

> To say you don't believe is one thing, but you
> need to prove specific things I wrote are false
> and more significant than the Bible and dead Sea
> scrolls record

The construct "I'm right unless you prove I'm wrong" is both fallacious and rather silly.
If you want people to accept your claims, you have to "prove" they're right. Nobody has to prove them wrong.

You forgot your usual condescending "(sigh)."

(sigh)

I see nothing condescending in Hie's reply. Just facts; especially the last point. Outsized claims require outsized evidence.

The wrong take the truth hard maybe?

Great thread. I love the range and depth of ideas and perspectives I find here.

The humor is very beneficial to my recovery as well.

I second Boner's motion to take it easy on the believers. I'm as perplexed as the next person as to why we would trade one wanting system of beliefs for another, but it's an independent journey, so rock on whichever way you may travel.

My thought is the non-believers here rail on the believers for the very same reason we all want/hope to help our family and friends escape LDS, Inc: It hurts to see someone we care about involved in a controlling cult. And religions of every stripe end up controlling some part of your life.

Am I crazy to see this as proselyting?

It's more a personal affirmation, I think. No one, like 6 Iron, who has been around here for awhile, would bother trying to impress we heathen atheists, we band of soulless brothers...

My bad. I'll be less sensitive and accusatory.

I didn't see your question as being accusatory, "fool". I think it's a fair observation.

It's allowed here to state your religious beliefs if you can manage to phrase it in a personal way. It's a fine line some people walk.

He's targeting the ones who are fresh out and have not done their homework yet.

He sounds every bit like a Kool-Aid drinking meme parrot as any Mormon.

Didn't like her0in? Here, try C0ca!ne. It's a different kind of feel good on religion!

The Jesus gimmick appeals to people who don't want to be in control of anything, and don't want to deal with the concept of mortality. Glad that religion op!um is working for so many. It keeps them busy I guess.

hahahahaha! Not THAT'S preaching!!

I know a lot of people say the new poison is so much less potent. But I'm not totally convinced. God sends down his Son who teaches nice things and heals people then dies for our sins. From then on everyone has to hear and accept this story before they die or they will be damned to hell to suffer unimaginable pain for all eternity, at the very least they will be barred from the presence of God.

An all powerful all wise and loving God is going to give up on you just like that.

If you believe the story though, you are one of his special saved people to live in heaven forever.

Yeah, he is preaching,but so are you and anyone else who wants people to believe like they do. Just sayin'

I get a free pass once I go to the temple and get my signs and tokens. I can just walk on by those who would stop me...No...Christ is NOT involved.

"Your endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in the House of the Lord, which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the Holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and hell." (Journal of Discourses 2:31).-Brigham Young

Nobody suffered and died for my sins.

Make something confusing enough and convoluted enough you can nibble the bugger an entire lifetime and still be unclear on whether youve got it bucked out...i liken it to putting way to much in a suitcase then attempting to shut the lid while your gaunch and garmies are fighting to escape out different sides...imo paul was a tormented tempest in a tea pot...yeah lets listen to THAT guy!...women remain silent in the church...men shud remain as me...unsullied by the fair gender...potlicker had no end of personal issues...again imo...ymmv...not sure if its mormon related or not...but my bull shit meter pegs at the very mention of visions and visitations anymore...probly because i wasted most of a lifetime believing in some crackpot from the 1800s

The whole sacrifice an animal as a means of kissing God's ass is such a primitive thing to do. Hard to imagine the creator of the universe choosing this kind of worship, isn't it? He didn't even join them for the singed goat dinner. Probably because they were serving wine instead of water.

So anyway, Jesus comes along and thinks the same thing, 'What's with all the caveman crap? It's the year 0!'

Jesus considers that God would be above all of that archaic and primordial type stuff and preaches love and kindness in between bouts of preaching hell and damnation--The bifurcation is hard to ignore unless you are Mormon or Christian and then you only remember that Jesus likes your church best. And saved you! Saved you because you are so horrible the only way to save you was for Jesus to suffer spectacularly. Probably not half as bad as what people went through in the various holocausts men perform in an effort to sacrifice even more to their Lord.

So, in modern times we have a new messiah to once again call everyone on their crap. George Carlin. Will his message be canonized. Perhaps Bill Maher will be his "Paul." Will we be waiting for George to return in the next two thousand years? Or will we just give up and do what we always knew we should have done all along with out anyone, including Jesus, telling us.

the overwhelming majority of exmos posting on this board are atheitists or . . . whatever.

IN B4 6 iron rustles some atheistic jimmies ITT

I post here for support from my fellow EXMOs. We all come here with different experiences and issues; and yes, some of us are still believers in God. Please be welcoming of all sincere folks who post here.

As I've said before to my atheist friends here, I support you because you're honest in your convictions and I value honestly. I know your opinions on religious beliefs, but please don't drive away someone who is hurting and needs support by ridiculing them or their personal beliefs.

Mormonism made me feel small and unworthy. How ironic it would be for us, as an EXMO community, to make others feel small and belittled because we see religions are a scam or hoax.

I love you guys, I crack jokes with you, I appreciate your honesty, but let's let Bednar, et al, be the intolerant! The Boner.

I agree we need to support all exmo's to some extent.

I do believe in God but still don't consider Jesus as a God ----- if he existed.

Still, topic was addressed to TBMs and just made a statement that many can agree with. I do. Mormonism didn't suffer for anyone's sins!

Sorry to break it to you but Jesus wasn't real either. Not even as a person.

But it is going to suffer and die for its own sins.......