Last week Mr. Ash said this:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705370834/Types-of-evidence-and-the-Book-of-Mormon.html

“Direct evidence … is evidence of a fact based on a witness’s personal knowledge or observation of that fact."

Now using that definition, Joseph Smith's bedroom tale about Moroni's appearance is direct evidence as long as the source is from Joseph Smith and not from second or third hand accounts.

And there is just such a source in Joseph Smith's own journal from November, 1835. It tells us what Moroni said.

http://beta.josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/journal-1835–1836#25
(the link does not work, it cuts off –1836#25. You will need to type that in the address bar to get to the site)

"he said the indians, were the literal descendants of Abraham"

To clarify what "literal descendants of Abraham" meant to Joseph Smith, look at a revelation written on March 28, 1835, before his journal story.

D&C 107:40 "The order of this priesthood was confirmed to be handed down from father to son, and rightly belongs to the literal descendants of the chosen seed, to whom the promises were made."

To Joseph Smith, "literal descendant" meant from father to son. These are from sources of direct evidence. An example of indirect evidence would be a newspaper article written by Oliver Cowdery or someone else. The journal and D&C are direct evidence because they are the words of Joseph Smith.

What these words tell us is that Moroni said the Indians were literally from Abraham, father-to-son, through Isaac and Jacob on down to the tribes in New York in 1835.

Today Mr. Ash said this:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705371307/Challenging-Issues--Keeping-the-Faith-The-Book-of-Mormon-and-modern-science.html

"If we forego traditions and folk-assumptions about the Book of Mormon and apply the methods of modern science and scholarship..."

The "direct evidence" from Joseph Smith's own mouth about the visit from Moroni is now "traditions and folk-assumptions."

If we apply the methods of modern science using DNA, it does not support what Moroni told Joseph Smith. It looks like the apologists are now claiming that Moroni's words are just folk-assumptions.

How do apologists get away with denying "direct evidence"? It seems that to admit it as evidence does prove that Joseph Smith lied about Moroni.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2011 09:34PM by Hoggle.

What choice do they Have?

EVIDENCE? WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING EV-I-DENCE!

Mos have been innoculated against putting 2+2 together (It's 4, Not 3,5, or Any Other Number; it's also NOT 22.
Considering all the 'mental' gymnastics that Mos go thru 'to believe'...None of them should be overweight, That's For Sure!

just sayin'



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2011 10:38PM by guynoirprivateeye.

See Polygamy and other topics.

Easily impeachable in a court of law. Value of "testimony" so-called direct evidence: (Now I wish I could add some cute little drawings to show what I think of what he said.)

ash to dcp:
Dude check it out- I'm gonna ignore direct evidence!

No way!

Way!

Dude that was awesome!

tom to dallin:
Whoa dude, didja see that?

Yeah, that mikeys got talent.

Think members will buy it?

dunno, lemme check the coffers...

ya know, dally-o maybe he could replace the Packed One

dunno tommy, he's got the hairy mark of Lucifer on his chin...

Hoggle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "he said the indians, were the literal descendants
> of Abraham"

Great find. The official version of that angel visit also said:

"He (moroni) said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang." (JS History v.34)

Note the words: former inhabitants, this continent, source. It's pretty clear. Not so limited, not so implied, and not so folklore as lie. The word continent is not to be used lightly if he were an angel. " If there are faults they are the mistakes of men" doesn't apply to angels...

As for the literal thing, I just wanted to quote another JS goldie oldie:

"[A]s the Holy Ghost falls upon one of the literal seed of Abraham, it is calm and serene; and his whole soul and body are only exercised by the pure spirit of intelligence; while the effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile, is to purge out the old blood, and make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have a new creation by the Holy Ghost. In such a case, there may be more of a powerful effect upon the body, and visible to the eye, than upon an Israelite..." (TPJS p.149-150)



> If we apply the methods of modern science using
> DNA, it does not support what Moroni told Joseph
> Smith. It looks like the apologists are now
> claiming that Moroni's words are just
> folk-assumptions.

If they can denounce scriptures like Hela 3:8:
"8And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east."

Saying it doesn't really mean the whole earth, just the known parts to the nephites, well, they will deny anything that doesn't fit their modern scholarship models.

(Also the ones in 4 Ne and elsewhere that say about the same thing.)

Yeah, they are pseudoscience makers by definition, cherry picking data and verse to their need.

Everything else is simply an anti-Mormon lie. :)