I know we are all responsible for our decisions and choices and all, but when you are raised with the religious patriarchy that exists in this church, it's hard to not let it affect you.

I always felt second class a woman in the church, but stupidly just accepted it, although begrudgingly. I actively made choices I deeply regret as a young adult, mostly because of this damn religion. I turned away from things and packed down what I wanted to try to align myself with what the church and I thought the Lord required of me. I made those decisions, no one forced me, but because I felt compelled to by a religion I was indoctrinated in so heavily it definitely had undue influence...I'm raging pissed now that I don't believe it.

Even worse, I allowed a pattern to form from early in my marriage where I tolerated behavior I shouldn't have and tried to just keep the peace. I wasn't a total doormat, but he was the priesthood leader in the home, so I was trying to respect that when he decided what we were doing and how things would go. When I was not treated well, I did realized that wasn't okay, but I didn't know what to do. No one ever teaches you in YW what to do when you get married in the temple and your RM husband you have been friends/in a relationship with for years transforms and starts acting like an ass. I felt I would be betraying him if I told my family, although I'm sure they had some idea. It was not physical, so I didn't recognize how "not okay" it was. I internalized it and felt it was partly my fault for not being a better wife. I tried to be forgiving.

When I was pregnant and the kids were little-way worse. He had no tolerance for anything that put him out. He thought all the house stuff and kid stuff was pretty much my job. I became resentful. Sometimes he treated us great other times he was very mean to me and even the kids. Always critical and sometimes treated me with distain.

I went to a counselor, he wouldn't come since nothing is wrong with our marriage apparently. One sided marriage therapy is only so effective ;-).

Our finances got worse, so I started working...but I was still the one who had to do everything. But, it's weird because he complains about no one doing anything.

It is markedly better now the kids are getting older and there is not as much strain. But, I don't think he has "changed," just that he is not as stressed. He seems to have an inability to see things from other people's perspectives or just doesn't care. I honestly think he doesn't get it. As such, I can't let it go.

Now I don't believe and he mostly doesn't. He says him being "in charge" and people respecting him are because he is a man, not because of the church.

I'm so, so sorry you have had to deal with this and still are. The YW's program sets girls up for a lifetime of this crap. The men are told they are to become "gods" and simply need a "wife" who's gender role it is to cook and clean and take care of the kids...aka every single thing apart from going to and coming home from work. It's exhausting and I too would be horribly resentful. I watched this dynamic my entire growing up to such an extent it pushed me out of the church and I never married conventionally nor had children. I had worked so hard in my house as a teen girl that I couldn't imagine doing it again as a fully grow woman.

Honestly, if it has been this long and he doesn't see the need to change, I hope you divorce his butt.

Sounds like an ass.

I'm sorry you're going through this. <3

This hurts to read. I just want to say that you're right;it's not all your fault. You are right when you say that the church led you to think and behave in certain ways.

As to what you should do now? I don't know. It's easy for people on the internet to just say wow, get a divorce, but those people aren't part of your marriage and don't know the whole story.

Do you want to be married to your spouse?
Do you love your spouse?
Does your spouse have enough good in him and in your relationship that you want to be together?

Even though I think that your husband is in the wrong to treat you this way, the thing I have come to understand about relationships is that we can never expect people to change so we have to decide if the relationship as is, is what you want to be part of.

I don't mean to sound negative and there's a lot you can do to work towards your own happiness. I hope you are still in individual counseling and will invite your spouse to go again.

Yes, I'm still in counseling. Basically trying to figure out what I do from my side to try to create some positive change. Then learning how to set boundaries or develop strategies on how to live with a difficult person, since you are right... you can't make anyone change. I will say it has helped the marriage a little and me a lot.

As you can imagine when I assert myself, it causes contention.

I do want to be married to him, love him, and there is a lot of good in this marriage. At this point it's not worth throwing it all out as painful as this particular issue has been.

There were points in the past I would not have said that. If I was then who I am now I would consider leaving.

I am insecure in that if/when the going gets tough again he won't just not be there in my hour of need, but could make it worse like he did in the past. He doesn't fully own up to it, but admits some minimal wrongdoing and said he would never do that again. Which as I write that I realize it is a classic statement.
I hope for the best and am preparing "what to do when" for if It got that bad again. It's been a few years- but still.

It is just a sucky way to have to feel a lot your spouse.

Looking at his family and this religion...I don't know how he can't see it's learned. That it probably has something to do with it. He might not be saying it's because he is the priesthood holder- but it's pretty much the same behavior.

I will ask him again at some point.

I have the same situation with a lot of extra crazy added in. I'm in a similar spot right now - my spouse is acting at least decently now because a few years ago i threateneed to divorce - but due to my beliefs in temple marriages and heavy encouragement from church leaders / people to stay married I stuck around. It's been ok since then but just ok. I keep waiting and wondering if the old disrespectful (understatement!) behaviour will come back.
But for now being in a somewhat normal dynamic is enough for me to stay in it - for the sake of children who are In an age range where they probably would be worse off with a divorce


Your description sounds so much like the pattern of my marriage. I haven't figured it out yet so I don't have much advice for you - I just know that sometimes it helps to know you are not the only one going through a certain situation.

Since I've left the church I have noticed a lot of similar patterns in member families (not all of them of course) and now I qquestion just how much the church actually breeds / cultivates dysfunctional families and passive aggressive behaviours to the extreme - and perhaps a lot of men who abuse their "parltriarchal power."

Making your choices now are probably harder - you are married, you have kids... it's not the same as dumping someone you are just dating. I wish you all the best in dealing with the situation. I agree with another comment on here that counselling may be a good thing to continue - whichever path you go down it will provide support. Be strong and know you are not alone.

Sorry you find yourself in a similar situation. It was because of my temple marriage covenants, religious beliefs, and influence of family/leaders that I didn't even dare threaten.

Read this article about passive-aggressive behavior it Utah...

http://www.cityweekly.net/utah/passive-aggressive-mormons/Content?oid=2157606

Thanks. Interesting article.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2016 09:25PM by aposenai.

So sorry you have been going through this for so long. I completely agree that the church breeds much of this superior male attitude behavior. I've seen it in so many Mormon marriages.
I hope there is change on the horizon with this new young generation of woman. Sending you affirming thoughts and big hugs from this MexMom.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2016 02:21AM by bradley.

First let me say you DO NOT have to live like this! That doesn't mean leaving your marriage necessarily, but it does mean 1. Accepting the fact that your husband may never change 2. Become willing to live without a victim mentality 3. Practice non-attachment about your husband's behavior towards you and in general.

When I began truly respecting myself and lost my attachment of how others thought of me, my life changed radically. I didn't even need to talk about what I was doing. I simply did what was in my heart. When my husband made remarks I didn't argue with him I simply lived my own life. In the back of my mind I readied myself to leave if and when the time came.

Amazingly it didn't. Once my husband realized I was who I was and his input was neither here nor there to me, he changed--on his own. When I quit caring about his reactions and behavior, they changed. I was pleased to see it, but by that point I determined to live my life authentically regardless of others. He later shared that he realized if he didn't change, our marriage would be over. He was right. We're still married--nearly 41 years, but our relationship doesn't resemble in the least what it used to be like. What's more, my husband has become a feminist, arguing passionately in favor of women's rights. Who would have guessed? But in the end, none of that mattered. I was going to be fine either way because I was my own champion.

I agree with this advice. I would simply ignore your husband's grumbles and pouts. Just go about your business. You don't have to go on *his* guilt trip.

You know what else I'd do? Go off by yourself every now and then. Go away for the weekend and see family, or enjoy the company of a girlfriend or two. If DH grumbles about this, I would just say in a nonchalant manner that "You will be fine," or "I'm sure you'll get it figured out." Don't make meals ahead of time or anything. Let him cope! It might give him a greater appreciation of your contributions to the household.

My wonderful best friend used to say "I've never once heard of husband bones in front of the fridge!!"

I am loving your advice, I need to memorize this!

Anonymous has some very good suggestions that really do work! You are wise to continue counseling, even without your husband's participation. Counseling will provide you with a support system that family simply cannot provide. You will also be given tools and develop skills that will help you be effective in every aspect of your life. I think you show a great deal of thoughtfulness, wisdom, and charity. Charity is patient....and kind.

Your husband must sense that you are evolving and are shedding the subserviant role that you have been indoctrinated with.... and, frankly, that scares him! That you love your husband and see a lot of good in him and in your marriage gives you both an excellent chance of surviving this transition!

Starting with the idea that we teach people how to treat us, I am not sure exactly if it's possible to re-teach someone a way to treat us differently without irreparably harming the relationship. The reason for that is because he married you with the understanding of a certain set of rules -- rules to which you agreed to as well, until recently, now that you are beginning to question that. Now, I do believe it is entirely possible to renegotiate any agreement, including the "rules" within a relationship/marriage. Exmos have done it. And most everyone else has better ideas about how to do that than I do, but I think you're on the right track talking about learning how to ask for your needs to be me, making "I" statements (which doesn't just mean starting declarative statements with "I feel like"), and setting boundaries.

So I'll tell you a cautionary tale meant as a parable. I think the rules can be renegotiated if both parties are interested in changing the relationship (changing people is off the table, as has been acknowledged in this thread already).

Once upon a time, my sister weighed nearly 400 pounds and was suicidal. Her second husband was emotionally abusive and extremely controlling. She raised her children with her first husband essentially by herself, even though she was married to second husband.

One day, her in-laws gave her a car, a late-model Buick. My sister is a sports coupe sort of person, not a Grampa's sedan kind of person. She hated that car because it made her feel like she was 90 years old driving around in a Buick. That made her take a look at herself -- a real look -- for the first time in a couple decades and she finally began to see herself more as other people saw her. In her mind, she was still a 150-pound sexy 19-year-old who could draw every male eye in the room. She decided not to try to die anymore and instead, slowly began changing her eating habits. Then she started working out, with the support of some physical therapists she works with.

At a certain point, she had to sit down with the husband and explain that she had decided to change her life and her body and probably her Self as well. She told him she understood that she was changing the game on him and the person she wanted to become would NOT be the same person he'd agreed to marry. She said she WANTED him on that journey with her, and that they both deserved to heal and grow and become Better, but she understood if he wasn't interested in changing their lifestyle. Basically, "I'm going to do this with or without you."

For example, she loves Cheetos, but realized they are like cigarettes or heroin to her, so no more Cheetos. Her kids would respect that she was trying to keep junk food out of the house and wasn't going to be ordering pizzas or serving fast food for dinner anymore. They supported her by eating the healthy food she cooked and served, and encouraged her at all her goals. Her kids were great. Her husband would buy a bag of Cheetos and leave them on the kitchen counter. Suggest pizza for dinner, insisting that was the only thing he wanted. Anywhere he could, he took the opportunity to undermine her.

But she prevailed and got stronger and smaller and eventually lost about 150 pounds. And then she lost another 350 when she divorced that asshole. :-D

She couldn't be happier. She's in a nice, committed relationship with a man who adores her and treats her like gold. She has a grandchild now that she dotes on. She took charge of her life and took it back and made herself happy, but at the expense of that marriage.

I'm not saying that will happen to you. It could be that your husband wakes up one day and realizes that you are a full, whole human being in your own right and also deserve respect, love, and happiness like anyone else. Like EVERYONE does. Or he may not ever be on board with the New You. But I think it's a good idea to make it crystal clear that you are changing the direction you are going and warn him that he may not like it. He probably won't believe you at first, but your actions will demonstrate that you meant what you said. He may come around. Who knows?

Good luck to you.

She may have lost her husband, but it wasn't a loss AT ALL.

;>)

You betcha. That's why I shared that story. Sometimes, what looks like the worst possible option turns out to be the best favor you ever did yourself. You might think it'll kill you while you're going through it, but when you come out the other side, you look back and go, "Man, I'm glad I put myself through that."

Sometimes you gotta go through Hell to come out on the other side.

My son was just talking to me about this yesterday. My dad was very authoritarian, though he wasn't a TBM. His father was not like this. He supposedly took after his mother's father. He raised very strong-headed daughters, which I don't think he bargained for and then was shocked when we didn't do what he told us to when we grew up, but he softened as he got older and we all had a good relationship with him when we lost him. I did tell my son that I learned a lot of my reaction to men from being mormon and not being able to say "no" to things like bishopric interviews, etc.

When our couples therapist asked me to write down pros and cons about divorce from my gay husband, it wasn't his cheating or the fact he is gay that I wrote down as the biggest con, it was his need to "suck the joy out of life on a daily basis" (found in an Ann Landers column years ago). He can be a very nice person, but he can be a very emotionally abusive person, too. In the years after he left me, I actually lived in fear of him. I still will have kneejerk reactions to him even though we are friends.

I have been in an 11 year relationship with the nonmormon guy I wanted to marry when I was 20. Over the years, I have chosen not to live with him and that is not just his problem, but mine. I have a hard time maintaining my boundaries in a relationship with a man, so I choose not to remarry or live with a man who I feel has "power" over me. I won't share finances with a man ever again either. I don't believe I'll ever learn to be strong enough in a relationship with a man to ever marry again.

My nonmormon boyfriend has his own issues. It isn't just mormons who are like this as I saw in his parent's marriage the same kind of issues you are talking about, so my boyfriend learned it from his parents. His mother and sisters even told me I was wise to not live with my boyfriend. Even his son said so, that he is set in his ways and is difficult to live with.

I don't think it is just mormons who have learned this way of thinking, but it still doesn't make it right.

I've gotten a lot stronger, but I have learned I give away my power easily.

I made a lot of decisions based on what I was told by leaders--one being marrying my gay ex. I have also noted a tendency not just in mormon men that they prefer women who have less sexual experience that they do no matter what they say. I was rather shocked to realize that even my gay ex who had a lot of sexual experience before we married thought he deserved a virgin.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2016 10:55AM by cl2.

Where is Free Man to tell us that men are the only real victims of Mormonism?

If you're looking for validation outside yourself, you're not going to find it. Your hubby will never understand you, so even if he were to flip a switch and become "not a dick", the validation wouldn't be authentic.

Only you can love you, so make that your first priority. Start by fighting every Mormon notion that in some way you're not deserving of total love.

Aposenai

I think I can help you with this. Feel free to reach out if you'd like.

Best,

Tal

tcrbachman@gmail.com

Aposenai - Tal gave me a lot of advice when my marriage was struggling. I would recommend that you avoid sharing your personal life with him, or anyone for that matter, that you truly do not know.

Interesting. Yeah, although I appreciated the offer, that would be too weird. I have a counselor. Even posting was a bit out of my comfort zone. I was just looking for perspective on the uniquely Mormon aspect of the dynamic since the people I'm talking to know nothing about it (aside from what I've told them). I realize that without more details advice could be helpful or totally off base and I'm taking it all with a grain of salt.

Things have been moving in a positive direction. I'm hoping now he is on the unbelief track there is more of a chance he will come to understand things differently.

Good to hear. I made a big mistake talking to Tal about my marriage. I can't go into all the details here, but please trust me on this. My marriage counselor was really very good and helped me tremendously.

My husband slowly came around to understand how the patriarchy he was indoctrinated with was personally damaging to me, our children, and our marriage. There is hope, good men can, and do, change! Now it breaks my husband's heart to think back on all the heartache he caused. We are so glad that we took the time to worked through all of the issues in our transition out of Mormonism. Two days ago we celebrated our 33rd Anniversary! We are so incredibly happy!

Yay! Glad to hear things improved. He has made significant progress the last 5 years. It is because he saw his behavior was wrong and decided to change himself- that is the only way it can happen. It was mostly a result of me healing from depression and becoming more empowered. So far from hopeless- just a way to go. Otherwise he is a good man. Loyal, hard working, ridiculously brilliant, handsome, and is big on community service because he cares- not because of getting blessings or being assigned. Lucked out being sexually compatible and nearly two decades later have a great sex life. You just never know with two virgins marrying each other- glad we didn't get hang ups from internalizing what I see as the church's unhealthy sexual attitudes like I'm reading it did to others. I think our strongly held shared political beliefs turned out more important than the religious ones. Finding a politically liberal, yet devout Mormon was hard to find. Although we are in different stages of lost faith and leaving the church- we are on the same road. Looks like our new religious views might shake out quite different- Christian and agnostic- but we think we can be respectful and live with that. Just as long as neither of us stay with the cult right? We have shared interests and lots to talk about aside from the kids.

So, not minimizing the patriarchy as a serious and painful issue in the marriage- it has been awful, but not enough for it to outweigh the good and for me to give up on the marriage over.

Because it is at least going the right direction- I have hope. Just trying to figure out what I can do on my end to hopefully influence him to realize it- or at least learn how to live with it and not let it affect me too much. Easier said than done- but at least I have control in how I react.

To be fair, must be a big change to marry someone who is one way and then drastically changes her entire worldview, life goals, and how she wants the relationship to be... But I figure that is learning and developing as a person as I've gotten older. Learning more about who I really am outside the church. If I never grew or changed in 20 years that seems almost weirder. Got married young- then grew up.

There is so much I could say, but men like him just make

me so angry. Obviously he doesn't realize that this is the 21st

century which means that men and women are equal. I don't know

why you

stay with him but I'm sure you have good reasons.... which is

fine. I just want to say that when you are with a man who

treats you with respect it make all the difference in the world

and you will see what you have been missing. I wish you luck

and I'm hoping that you find a man who respects you because that

is part of what love means and without it, there isn't much.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2016 08:07PM by saucie.

Would he and everyone in the church be OK if suddenly women ran the church and men were secondary?

What if only women interviewed young men about masturbation and asking about sexual activity?

What if men had to say "Yes" with a veil over his head to the wife in the temple and the wife says "Yes" to God?

What if the men were not allowed to know the wife's temple name but she is to know his?

What if the concept of heaven was that women could have multiple husbands and husbands have to share one wife?

What if the men's organization reported to a woman at the top, meaning men ultimately have no top power in the organization?

What if it were a rule that the woman only is supposed to do the blessing, and other priesthood roles and he is supposed to "support" her power over him?

What if a woman Bishop calls the wife to decide if it is OK if the husband receives a calling?


You get the picture. The list goes on and on. Women need to stop empowering this behavior if they want to become truly equal in the world, IMO, and not just in Mormonism.

Go for it. Politely and lovingly, or more forcefully if you must, but don't let abuse of what is perceived of as power by some (the priesthood title), ruin your marriage and life. Speak up and defend yourself.

As aposenai ( ) rightly observed, "perhaps a lot of men...abuse their "patriarchal power."

Me: WHAT "patriarchal power"? Some seem to think it is with God's approval and permission that men misuse the "power" they seem to think of as theirs, as they wish (such as abusing their wive and family). Nonsense.

Even so, in Mormonism, some perverted church leaders and doctrine may make it appear that men who "hold" the priesthood are God's "favored" gender, and as such, feel they are "inspired", and as such, have a right to act almost as they please towards their wife and family. Not so.

Indeed, teaching this perverted concept and doctrine (let alone acting on it)--and of all things in the name of God--is (IMO) a damnable outrage in itself.

A story reg. the women's role in the overbalance of authority between men and women in the church: I vividly remember an instance in our stake where the "priesthood" circled their support around a high-priesthood "brother" to support his "right" not to pay his ex-wife (and their two half-grown sons) support and alimony. This they did on the basis that SHE had decided to divorce him (and ignoring civic law, and the fact that he was a real jerk).

Along this line, the church has tried different versions of how to circumvent the wisdom of sharing of affairs in a marriage (albeit, so that the man always retains the "right" of leadership over women).

For instance, the church teaches members--even in the temple--that the wife is to "Bow her head, and say 'Yes'" (in agreement with the proposition that the male be the primary
"partner" over the two genders). As presented by the church, no choice in the matter is given the females.

The teachings of the church also make it clear that the wife is to consider her husband as superior to him in virtually all ways. It even has the audacity to claim that "this is due to God's demand", not mans, due to only males being allowed to "hold" the "priesthood".

In other words, the church chooses to hide behind "God" as being responsible for any inequity's this system may cause, for a doctrine created and put into practice by men. (What an outrageous liberty to "blame" God!).

IMO, if inequities exist between men and women, these are not due to God's orders or will, but (of course) due to men. Indeed, the fact of God being God reinforces that He is--and must be--just in all things.

(Remember, even the "prophet" J.Smith taught that the power of the pd can only function so long as it is used in righteousness.)

This leads to my opinion that if a man physically abuses his wife or children, she should call the police---NOT the church.

And, if a husband speaks or acts disrespectfully to his wife, he should be reminded that a divorce would cost him far more than he can afford to pay if she chooses to leave him. He could also have it pointed out to him that civic law insist he pay support to his family, "or else" (which could even mean jail).

As many of us have observed, allowing jerks to be jerks does absolutely no good what-so-ever as far as making them stop, goes. Yet bully's can only be bullies when others let them be. One may have to go further than this. One must speak up against such persons.

Happily, in our day, the law is on the side of the victim, not the offender.

Also, leaving a creep to fend for himself helps them discover for themselves what it's like to live alone (such as suffering from loneliness, and having to do their own laundry, cleaning, and cooking).

Post script: I readily admit that some women can be as capable of acting like jerks, as men. (As my adult son often says to misbehaving youth, "Don't act like a dope".)

I was married to a prick like that.
After you kick him to the curb, you will wonder why you put up with it as long as you did.

My commentary was requested.

As we read about abusive women, this guy obviously has a hormone problem, or is just depressed, or is not loved enough by his spouse. He couldn't possibly be a jerk.

Where do you get this stuff?

The blunt reality of marriage is this.

No one gets a trophy. Years in service don't matter. Being the quiet suffing one for the marriage doesn't matter. Being abused in any manner and taking it still gets no trophy.


You have one life. One. And the clock is ticking.


Marriage is about two people being happier together than apart. Its not a miserable marathon or alleast it's not supposed to be.

It is OK to stand up and say "Not any more!".

If you don't see youself enjoying the heck out of the later years with this man let him know the reasons you are thinking this way. Be honest with him and yourself. You may be amazed at how those now unseen paths work themselves out for the better.

In many ways, LDS marriages include a third partner, the Church. Always the oversight to make sure marriages are perfectly aligned with the Correlation department.

Every Choice is weighed against what the Church would want you to do and how others in the Church may judge you. This utopian marriage is a false dichotomy of reality most people are not prepared to live. Living a pre-scripted life so others can be happy is stressful and also creates internal tension.

I think of Lady Diana who was loved by so many people but lived a secret and horrible life. Through all the unhappiness, Harry the second son was born. Charles made an off handed comment about his red hair. Diana decided at that moment, it was over. She took matters into her own hands despite the public opinions the monarchy wanted to avoid.

What I'm attempting to say here is simply, marriages with a foundation of the Church or protocol are not real. They are more like clubs with membership rules. Marriages where you care about each other first more than what others think are more healthy.

Good Luck.