Just found this site:
http://infomory.com/famous/famous-mormon-celebrities/
#10 on their list is Elie Wiesel! I can't believe that there could be anything to it. Does anybody know more?

Elie Wiesel is NOT and never has been mormon. I don't know where they got that. In fact, he was the one always calling the church and Mitt Romney out on the baptizing holocaust victims thing.

But obviously they're desperate for "famous" mormons when Marie Osmond is the only one on the list that anyone outside of mormondumb would even recognize.

That is insulting to Elie Wiesel.

The caption under his photo makes very little sense:

10. Elie Wiesel

Eliezer Wiesel, better known as Elie Wiesel, was born to Sara Feig and Chlomo in Sighet, Maramures County, Romania on September 30, 1928. He is a Jewish American Nobel Laureate writer and a Holocaust survivor. He authored 57 books including Night relating to his experiences as a prisoner in the Auschwitz, Buna, and Buchenwald Nazi concentration camps. At the time of being awarded the Nobel Prize, the Norwegian Nobel Committee said about Wiesel, ‘His own personal experience of total humiliation and of the utter contempt for humanity shown in Hitler’s death camps.’ Elie Wiesel had delivered a message ‘Of peace, atonement, and human dignity.’"



Something is missing from the last two sentences. I wonder how the author came by the "knowledge" of Elie's conversion?

since when is Uchtdorf famous, outside of mormondom?

Why?
Because Joseph's Myth patted her o the head and said she was among friends? (Who considered her black skin to be a divine curse placed upon her race, because the God of Joseph's Myth hates blacks ironically, since Min is a Black fertility God pictured as God in the BoA.)

she is sealed to Joseph, via a proxy, since she couldn't enter a temple. But she's sealed to him as a servant.

I'm going to ask the missionaries, when I get the chance, if her 'sealing' to JS has been upgraded to wife, from servant. Not that there will be much of a distinction, now that I think about it. He can knock her up, be it as a servant or a wife....

Some sarcastic a**wipe put his name there to be an idiot.

He was slated for post-humous baptism, along with his deceased parents recently when it was brought to his attention.

Apparently the f*cking mormon living dead can't wait to dead dunk him so they were going to while he was alive.

That may be what the article is alluding to. Someone has already dead dunked him, before his time.

The Mormon church ought to be sued for slander, and violating the civil rights of non-LDS.

It's even more insulting to Jewish people, who want to be left alone to worship according to their conscience. Proselytizing is forbidden in Judaism because of idiots like this article's author, and LDS post-humous baptisms for and including Elie.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Proselytizing is forbidden in
> Judaism...

Not only is proselytizing (in the sense of transforming a non-Jew into a Jew) not something Jews do, historically (and evidently for good reason) Jews had reason to be extremely skeptical of non-Jews who sought to become Jews. From the Jewish standpoint, and on a practical basis, throughout history Jews got tortured and killed a great deal...their possessions (including homes, farming land, and businesses) were stolen from them...their children were often enslaved (or whatever was the local mechanism for turning legally "free" people into NON-free people at that particular time and place)...Jewish women (including from infants upwards to the most elderly and infirm) were raped a great deal, and then either murdered or made slaves...and on and on and on...

So from a Jewish standpoint the question was: Why would ANYONE who wasn't born a Jew want to BECOME a Jew???

There was ALWAYS (since Old Testament times...the story of Ruth) an established and Jewishly legal way for non-Jews to be transformed into Jews, but because Jews were so afraid of betrayal from within by converted-Jews-of-convenience, on a practical basis is was often either difficult, or VERY difficult, to find [a] rabbi to oversee the conversion-into-Judaism (in other words: the Jewish people as a whole)...actually, THREE rabbis---because this is the number of rabbis necessary to constitute a kosher Bet Din (a rabbinical court).

Over the centuries, a Jewish protocol was established: When a non-Jew asked a rabbi to oversee the conversion-into-Judaism process for them, that person was to be turned away three times---literally sent away and told that it was not possible.

If that person returned, they were sent away AGAIN.

If they returned a third time, they were sent away yet again.

If they returned a fourth time, the rabbi (unless that rabbi knew that the conversion was with an ulterior motive of some kind, which sometimes DID happen) was compelled to accept that potential convert as a student.

There was a body of knowledge that had to be acquired (the material normal, everyday Jews know in their daily lives)...

...there was the requirement for males of circumcision, or "symbolic" circumcision (for those males who had already been circumcised as non-Jews: a single drop of blood is produced from the head of the penis)...

...both males and females had to go through the mikvah [Jewish ritual bath]...

...and the potential convert had to appear before a Bet Din (rabbinical court composed of three rabbis) to make their case that they were sincere in their intentions and that their motives for becoming Jews were good.

Although potential converts to Judaism MAY still be turned away three times (especially if they are seeking Orthodox conversion), this usually doesn't happen anymore. In my case, I registered for an "Introduction to Judaism" night class at a local Jewish university because it SEEMED like, from the university catalogue, if you went through this class, you could become a Jew---but I didn't know for sure, and I was too scared to ask anyone. I just signed up for the class (there were about a hundred of us for the class I signed up for), did everything that was laid out for us on the conversion program, and---I think three months later, we had classes two nights a week---I became a Jew. One of the unforgettable moments of my life was standing up after my third complete, and supervised by rabbis, dunk in the Pacific Ocean (the indoor ritual bath on the university campus had not yet been completed), knowing that---at that moment---I was now legally a Jew. (I had wanted to do this since I was in junior high school.)

For various reasons, our Bet Din was later, and the Bet Din process was very easy to go through (even though all of us were nervous because we didn't know what to expect)...

...easy questions ("What is your favorite book in the Bible?"---if you don't have a favorite, you say "Ruth, because she was the first Jewish convert"...this is the "cheat" answer among Jewish converts ;)..."Why are you doing this?"...and something else that was pretty easy and that I can't remember) to fulfill the requirements of Jewish law. The three rabbis who were acting as our "judges" [despite the seeming informality, this is a court of Jewish law], were our teachers, and we knew them well as people by then--just as they knew US as people.

The bottom line is: Jews do not proselytize non-Jews...

...and historically (and until after WWII) there were initial hoops to jump through (the three rejections) for anyone who wanted to become a Jew, to make sure that those who had not been born Jews, but who then became Jews, were sincere and well-intentioned.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2016 10:23PM by Tevai.

They're waiting for him to die.....which in all due respect is emmanent.

Wait another year and they dead dunk Herr Wiesel.

I hope I live to see that lawsuit play out.

Elie Wiesel isn't remotely interested in the Mormon church. He would loathe any attempt by the morg to insinuate he is a member already or will be one.

He is as Jewish as any Jew can be. They abhor any attempts by Christian religions to seek converts from their ranks. Mormonism takes it further by baptizing anyone after we die to force their religion on us, post-humously.

It is the ultimate act of anti-Semitism to force conversion on Jews.

Moronic Mormons have perverted Christianity in so many ways, and post-humous baptizing is the most egregious act of all.

He is not , nor was he ever a mormon. That makes me sick that

some mormon dunce would dare to make that assertion.

Tevai is correct, but the practices are different depending on the congregation. In my case, when I married a cradle Jew, I made a commitment to raise my children in a Jewish environment. Later, some life experiences occurred in which I became spiritually involved in the Torah (the Jewish Bible.) I took the introduction classes for a year, and then indicated to the Rabbi I wished to convert. He asked me to write an essay on why I wished to convert, what being a Jew means to me, and the spiritual journey that brought me to the doors of the congregation. I was scheduled for an "interview" with two Rabbi's and a person of my choice. They had previously read my essay, and it was a few hours spent intellectually and spiritually probing the Jewish religion and my own life. After the interview, I scheduled a Mikva (the baptism) which had to take place in a body of water that was free flowing. Prior to the Mikva, I had a Moyle (Jewish person whom does the circumcision) poke my penis with a needle to draw blood (symbolicly similar to circumcision.) and then I went through the process of the Mitkva in a local hot spring. It was a beautifully spiritual process from start to finish. There was never any expectation that I had to do it. Questions about the process and the faith were ENCOURAGED... I remember the sense of pride and belonging I felt the first time I went to services as a Jew.

Wow, that's a splendid explanation of the process. From what you described, it's nothing like the process for converting to Mexicanism. I gather from your explanation that no beer was involved?

One of the quotes that I've enjoyed from Der Wiesel (as his friends call him) is: "No human race is superior; no religious faith is inferior. All collective judgments are wrong. Only racists make them."

Which from my perspective makes what I perceive of the above described 'jewish exclusiveness' somewhat suspect! Why work so hard to keep people from joining you?

Like the story about having to ask four times... At this point in time, what person who wants to join won't find this story and know to ask the required number of times?

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Like the story about having to ask four times...
> At this point in time, what person who wants to
> join won't find this story and know to ask the
> required number of times?

They DO know...any Jew (or non-Jew who knows what is going on) will tell them.

It is not secret...

...it is a PROTOCOL.

A tribe is being joined, and this is [historically] a traditional tribal initiation of sorts, and most non-Jews who get to the "find a rabbi" part know the rules by then.

When, as a non-Jew, you are turned away the first time, you say to the rabbi: "This is Number One."

When you return, and are turned away again, you say: "This is Number Two."

When you return yet again, and are turned away again, you say: "This is Number Three."

When you return after "Number Three" you are greeted as a beloved student...and the "work" (learning what you need to learn) begins.

"Tra---di---TION!!!" [Key in Tevye's voice here.]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2016 11:34PM by Tevai.

There were a lot of Jewish kids at my university, and one of my best friends there was a Jewish girl (more culturally Jewish than religiously.)

I have no desire to convert to Judaism (or any other religion,) but these descriptions of what to expect if you want to convert are fascinating. The part about the three rejections is especially good to know.

I was at school during the Six-Day War, and I can remember kids painting blue Stars of David on their bedsheets, and hanging them out of dorm windows. I learned to dance the hora in a very impromptu session - somebody I didn't even know grabbed my hand and pulled me into the dancing circle while somebody else was playing a guitar. It was great!

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Like the story about having to ask four times...
> At this point in time, what person who wants to
> join won't find this story and know to ask the
> required number of times?

The OTHER answer to this is that 'round about the late 1950s-early 1960s, what eventually became (by Jewish standards) major demographic changes were underway.

The offspring of those who had been high school students and college-age young adults during World War II were becoming adults themselves, and there was a sudden, sharp uptick in the number of in love, engaged, and married couples where one person was Jewish and the other person was not.

What had been somewhat exceptional before (Jewish/non-Jewish intermarriage) was suddenly rather common, and many Jewish prospective grandparents were facing a future where their grandchildren might not be Jewish. Since living Holocaust survivors were very much a part of North American life at that time, Jews across the Jewish spectrum became concerned, all over again, about Jewish survival---but this time due to intermarriage.

It was at this point that, over a decade or so, it became easier for non-Jews to convert to Judaism if they wanted to...and often it was as easy as joining an "Introduction to Judaism" class at a local synagogue, Jewish community center, or Jewish institution (like a Jewish university). The programs were often quite different from each other (depending on the Jewish movement(s) involved, and local area needs---there are many different "kinds" of Jews), but they all led to the same culmination: non-Jews formally joining the Jewish people through conversion to Judaism (which has a Jewish legal connotation, in addition to the Jewish religion).

Today, many synagogues host "Introduction to Judaism" programs of one kind or another (or a group of synagogues might join together to sponsor a group program, with the rabbis of each synagogue being the teachers/rabbis of the conversion class)...and I was fortunate enough to come across some mention of the program at the University of Judaism, which was all inclusive (when you registered for the program, you already knew exactly what was required so far as classes, circumcision/"symbolic" circumcision, mikvah, Bet Din...and also how conversion would, or would not, impact your existing children and any future children, and under what circumstances).

Many of the people who sign up for the Intro programs are already Jews (couples are encouraged to go through the classes together, so they are in synch with each other and their relationship is strengthened...often Jews want to learn the things they never learned before (they did not grow up in Jewish homes, even if one of their parents was Jewish, they did not go to Hebrew school growing up, etc.)...I think about half of my conversion class consisted of people who were either born Jews (their mother was a Jew), or people who were born of Jewish fathers/non-Jewish mothers, or Jews who just wanted to learn all the things they never learned when they were growing up: how to celebrate Purim, for example...how to light Shabbat or Hanukkah candles, etc., plus learning to read Hebrew phonetically so that anyone who took the class could then read (phonetically, but with some comprehension as well) the Hebrew-only parts of the prayerbook during weekly or holiday services.

As a practical matter, I believe the "Intro" [this is the inside-Jewish way to say it ;) ] classes are wonderful, depending on "who"/what Jewish movement, if any, is involved.

If there are no Intro classes in a specific area, someone who wanted to convert to Judaism would go to a rabbi in a movement compatible with them, and if the rabbi turned you away, if you've read this thread you now know to say "This is Number One" to the rabbi as you are heading out the door. ;) ;) ;)

[The Jewish movements are, left to right:

Secular/Humanist (atheist)...Reform... Conservative... Reconstructionist...modern Orthodox...[regular] Orthodox... ultra- or super-Orthodox], and the ultra-ultra "rightwing" Orthodox, who Jews call the "black hats" or "frummers."]

In addition: Jews are further broken down (very broadly) into Ashkenazi (German/Russian descended) and Sephardi (Spanish, originally from Spain, and Middle Eastern descended)...

Plus: there are congregations whose members are heavily of a specific ethnic Jewish group: Persian/Iranian, Syrian, Yemenite, etc., or congregations where most of the members share a particular political stance vis-à-vis Israel.

Personally, I consider myself to be a mostly secular Jew (my Jewish "movement")...who is Sephardi by food and music, and Ashkenazi by intellect....and who is Jewishly-politically "J Street" (meaning: I support a Two State solution vis-à-vis Israel and Palestine).

The Jewish university through which I converted to Judaism (whose name has now been changed to: American Jewish University) is officially Conservative/Reconstructionist (part of the curriculum available to full-time students at that university is for future rabbis, particularly those who identify as Conservative or Reconstructionist, though it would suit future Reform rabbis as well).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2016 05:18AM by Tevai.

So you're saying although you converted to Judaism, you are an atheist too?

The people I know from synagogue who are converts believe in God and the Torah as the word of God.

Strange, but to my understanding the Jewish people who describe themselves as secular who were born Jewish may not have been raised in a religious home or later became secular. Some, not all secular Jews, would describe themselves as atheist or agnostic. But not having converted to Judaism. These were people who were born into it.

I have never heard of a Jewish convert who is/was decidedly atheist following conversion. I realize you've indicated you know many Jewish people including rabbis who are atheists. That isn't true at all where I live among those who attend shul and worship services. It would be considered an aberration for a rabbi to be atheist or agnostic. They wouldn't be considered for hire where I live if they were.

And how can you be allowed to convert if you don't believe in the God of Abraham?

I don't get it.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2016 05:16AM by Amyjo.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So you're saying although you converted to
> Judaism, you are an atheist too?

Labels of Jewish identification are very slippery in Judaism, and are often fluid throughout a given Jewish person's life. The easiest way to explain what I really do "believe" is to say that I [probably] believe in Einstein's concept of God. Ask me again in a few years and I will probably have a better reasoned, and more coherent, answer. ;)

> The people I know from synagogue who are converts
> believe in God and the Torah as the word of God.

I accept this...in areas where there are enough Jews (in other words: not in the middle of Mississippi or Arkansas or Montana), Jews prefer to be with other Jews who are more like themselves when it comes to "beliefs" and similar preferences.

If I am remembering correctly, you live in an area where there are enough Jews to support a variety of synagogues and Jewish community facilities, so it would make perfect sense that the members of your synagogue---the synagogue you have chosen because you feel the most comfortable there---are similar in their general beliefs about God, and that the beliefs of those who share in your congregation are compatible with your own beliefs in God.

> Strange, but to my understanding the Jewish people
> who describe themselves as secular who were born
> Jewish may not have been raised in a religious
> home or later became secular. Some, not all
> secular Jews, would describe themselves as atheist
> or agnostic. But not having converted to Judaism.
> These were people who were born into it.

I think most of the Jews I grew up with (the kids I went to school with) are probably secular right now (though they also almost certainly went through the regular "belief" steps that apply to most kids growing up). Even the now-very-adult born Jews I know who are observant (the modern Orthodox kind of observant) are often at least secular-leaning in their personal "belief" systems. They observe (they keep kosher, they are Shabbat observant), but they don't necessarily "believe" in the commonly-accepted "God" figure.


> I have never heard of a Jewish convert who is/was
> decidedly atheist following conversion.

"Decidedly" atheist is one thing..."Einstein" [or]"leaning" atheist is another. If you went to Caltech, for example, and were able to poll the Jewish faculty and the Jewish students, I bet most would be sort of where I am now. Ditto for most of those who are in the entertainment industry (with some well-known exceptions like Mayim Bialik). People do convert to Judaism (at least the ones I know) just because they "feel Jewish" (certainly, this is true for me), and "belief" has nothing much (necessarily) to do with it.

> I realize
> you've indicated you know many Jewish people
> including rabbis who are atheists. That isn't true
> at all where I live among those who attend shul
> and worship services. It would be considered an
> aberration for a rabbi to be atheist or agnostic.
> They wouldn't be considered for hire where I live
> if they were.

First of all, if a rabbi was applying for a job at a synagogue in your area, I doubt that the rabbi would inform the selection committee of the Board of Directors that s/he was atheist or agnostic!!! :) The selection committee is not hiring a "believer," they are hiring a rabbi who fits in with their congregation (as a person), and with their congregation's level of observance, and who is strong in the areas that are important to that particular congregation (children's education, tikkun olam ("repairing the world"), compatible feelings about Israel, etc.).

In addition: Absolutely...if you live in the area where I have the impression that you live, you are within a fairly close radius of some of the most Orthodox Jews in North America...an area where "belief" is probably extremely important in most local synagogue life. But if you lived in Manhattan, and depending on the business and social sectors your life intersected with, you might find different proportions of Jewish belief than are probably true in your present home community (at least, as I understand your present home community from what you have shared here).

> And how can you be allowed to convert if you don't
> believe in the God of Abraham?

"Belief" had, and has, nothing to do with it...we learned what Jews [in the sense of Jewish theology] have historically, and right up to now, "believed" (including many of the differing, and constantly evolving, perspectives) but there was no expectation that we believed any particular perspective (although some of our class did).

Of the people in our conversion class who had NO Jewish parents, some of them were VERY "belief" oriented. Some in our class had made a serious study of comparative religions and, as a result of their comparisons, had decided that Jewish "belief" made the most sense to them, and so they were converting to Judaism. Many of these had come from Christian homes where "belief" was very important (we had a BIC Mormon in our class), and to these particular people, belief was very, very important.

To others...not so much.

We were NEVER asked (either individually, when we met with the rabbis who became our de facto "sponsors" in the Bet Din, or in class, or at any other time), what we "believed."


> I don't get it.

I think the issue here is that (from what I am understanding from your words) you consider belief to be fundamental to Judaism, and I am saying that although this is certainly true for SOME Jews, it is not "necessary" for ANY Jew. In Judaism (as a whole), and even among some very Orthodox Jews, "belief" is not essential...and often is not even expected.

Any Jew can be a mensch...and any Jew can be an OBSERVANT mensch...without ever believing in what is commonly, among most people, generally considered "God."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2016 06:40AM by Tevai.

It would be a contradiction in terms and outright hypocrisy for a rabbi to call himself a believer in order to manipulate the system for a position of tenure and some job security.

I can see it happening, considering all the charlatans throughout history that use religion for personal advantage like Joseph did.

But I haven't seen that outright among those I've observed up close and where I've worshiped. I imagine if they were secular paying lip service to Torah and Talmud, their hearts wouldn't be in it, and eventually they'd give themselves away. There have been corrupt and dishonest rabbis, but once found out they fall from grace so to speak. People expect more from their clergy than someone who isn't honest or genuine in what they say they believe.

From what you describe (and I see where you edited out your comment in preceding post where you described yourself as a secular w/humanist atheist jew to secular,) is that you are attracted to Judaism not so much for the religion because you don't really believe in the prophets or the Abrahamic God... yet you identify on a personal and cultural level with Jews and the Jewish culture so that is how you see yourself - as a secular Jew. Albeit you needed to convert first in order to make it official.

Is it then the religion or the culture that you're drawn to more? Einstein wasn't a religious Jew either. Though he didn't convert to become a secular Jew.

I find it intriguing, that is all. I feel a close affinity to being Jewish also, like you do, despite my having not been brought up as one. I understand the desire to be a part of the tribe. For all the trouble you had to go through to convert, it just seems ironic that after all that you're agnostic.

Oh well, please don't think I'm judging you. It just seems ironic, that is all. It's a lot of work to convert to Judaism. For me it's as much a belief system as it is a culture. Which is why I haven't fully embraced it yet, but still attend services because I benefit from the prayers and comaraderie I find there among those I worship with.

They are extremely tolerant of themselves and others religious POV, so long as they are left alone to practice their beliefs. It does seem a part of their culture sadly to fend off attacks and religious persecution. Yet they are some of the most peaceful loving people I've yet to find on this planet.

I worked in Manhattan for nearly a decade prior to relocating upstate. Most of the Jews I worked with in my NYC office were observant Jews. Men and women. Not sure whether they were Orthodox or Conservative or Reform, or mixed.

There's a good mixed community of Jewish creeds upstate, but they all come together at the Jewish Community Center, despite their differences whether reform, conservative, orthodox, etc. Now there's Conservadox and Chassidic is popular (which is more orthodox.) Conservative is my preference because it's right in the middle, neither too liberal or too strict.

It actually reminds me more of my Mormon upbringing, as a Conservative Jew. But without all the discord, and dissension and suppression of intellect there is at the Mormon church.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2016 06:58AM by Amyjo.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It would be a contradiction in terms and outright
> hypocrisy for a rabbi to call himself a believer
> in order to manipulate the system for a position
> of tenure and some job security.

A ["secular," or "secular-leaning" for the purposes of this post] rabbi who is being interviewed by a synagogue selection committee is not "call[ing] himself a believer in order to manipulate the system"...in most cases, the subject of his personal religious BELIEFS would never come up. (The more Orthodox the synagogue, the more this might come into the discussion, but generally, and for most congregations, it just wouldn't. In most congregations, most of the time, the selection committee is concerned with how this rabbi (male OR female) is going to fit into the existing congregation, how this rabbi would approach whatever problems that congregation is having (sinking membership numbers, etc.), and the committee does absolutely vet the rabbi before interviewing him or her: What is that rabbi's rabbinical training and rabbinical background...who were this rabbi's mentors...what relevant interests does the rabbi have, what is s/he most interested in pursuing as priority congregational interests...what books and articles relevant to the congregation has the rabbi published...and (inevitably) where does this rabbi stand on the "Israel problem" and is this rabbi's perspective on this problem in enough line with the congregation's perspective that it will not cause problems? In most congregations, they really would not care very much about the rabbi's personal beliefs.


> I can see it happening, considering all the
> charlatans throughout history that use religion
> for personal advantage like Joseph did.

Secular-leaning rabbis are NOT "charlatans"!!! They are well educated, well trained, Jewish professionals who are dedicated to the Jewish people and to this country and to the world, who put up with unconscionable sh*t (because there are ALWAYS "difficult" members and concerns in ANY congregation) and often highly-interfered-with personal family life (being a rabbi is a 24-hour-a day job, year-round), in order to do the very best they can for their congregants (and, frequently, for the world).

> But I haven't seen that outright among those I've
> observed up close and where I've worshiped. I
> imagine if they were secular paying lip service to
> Torah and Talmud, their hearts wouldn't be in it,
> and eventually they'd give themselves away.

C'mon, Amyjo...they are not paying "lip service" to Torah and Talmud, they are HONORING Torah and Talmud with their entire lives, until they die or they retire. A professor of literature at a university is not a "charlatan" or "paying lip service" to the literature they teach, even if they do NOT "believe" that the Iliad or Odyssey ever happened, or even if they do NOT believe that a man named Shakespeare wrote the plays attributed to him. And it has NOTHING to do with "giving themselves away"---they are NOT being duplicitous (or many of the most important rabbis alive at any moment in present history would no longer be rabbis). I grant that in YOUR synagogue belief is important, but this is NOT [necessarily] true worldwide in North America, nor in Europe, nor in Israel. The Orthodox end of the Jewish spectrum possibly aside, "belief" (or the lack of belief) is often considered a personal matter when it comes to the rabbi who is chosen to be employed by that congregation.

> There have been corrupt and dishonest rabbis, but once
> found out they fall from grace so to speak. People
> expect more from their clergy than someone who
> isn't honest or genuine in what they say they
> believe.

This has nothing to do with being "corrupt and dishonest," and it doesn't mean someone isn't "honest or genuine" BECAUSE they do not say they do not believe if, in fact, they do not believe.


> From what you describe (and I see where you edited
> out your comment in preceding post where you
> described yourself as a secular w/humanist atheist
> jew to secular)...

If I remember correctly, I was trying to smooth out my syntax.

> ...you are attracted to
> Judaism not so much for the religion because you
> don't really believe in the prophets or the
> Abrahamic God...

I frequently do not believe what the prophets said, and I absolutely do not believe in the Abrahamic God of ancient times!!!

> yet you identify on a personal
> and cultural level with Jews and the Jewish
> culture so that is how you see yourself - as a
> secular Jew. Albeit you needed to convert first in
> order to make it official.

Like many converts to Judaism, and from an early age, I felt that I had been ostracized, and sent into exile from my tribe---and conversion IS the way that Jewish naturalization occurs. (My maternal great-grandmother was Cherokee, and yet I do not legally qualify as Cherokee by the legal criteria of the tribe, and if going through a Cherokee religious ceremony was the way to legally "get back into" the Cherokee tribe, and if I wanted this, then I would go through the ceremony...and this would have nothing to do with whether I did, or did not, believe in Cherokee religious beliefs.)


> Is it then the religion or the culture that you're
> drawn to more?

It is the tribe, it is the peoplehood of this specific people. The Jewish tribe has an official Jewish religion, and the way you become a Jew is to go through this specifically laid-out Jewish naturalization process. In no part of this (other than, IF there is a God, then God is "One"---however this is defined) is belief required, or inquired about.

No one [else] CARES.


> Einstein wasn't a religious Jew
> either. Though he didn't convert to become a
> secular Jew.

If Einstein had been born a non-Jew, and he had wanted to become a Jew, then he WOULD have gone through just about exactly the same process I did (and a whole lot of other people do this same thing, every year) to become a Jew, because THIS IS HOW IT IS DONE.


> I find it intriguing, that is all. I feel a close
> affinity to being Jewish also, like you do,
> despite my having not been brought up as one. I
> understand the desire to be a part of the tribe.
> For all the trouble you had to go through to
> convert, it just seems ironic that after all that
> you're agnostic.

It's not ironic at all. It is no different than being adopted into a Native American tribe (and I know several people who HAVE been formally adopted into Native American tribes) and going through a tribal religious ceremony---it IS the WAY that a person becomes adopted into the Jewish tribe...or into Native American tribes (on the occasions when this actually occurs).


> Oh well, please don't think I'm judging you. It
> just seems ironic, that is all. It's a lot of work
> to convert to Judaism. For me it's as much a
> belief system as it is a culture. Which is why I
> haven't fully embraced it yet, but still attend
> services because I benefit from the prayers and
> comaraderie I find there among those I worship
> with.

It IS a lot of work to convert to Judaism (but it's fun "work": you get to learn a bunch of history you probably never really understood before (like: "where did the Canaanites go???)...you get to at least semi-learn a really interesting language that makes you think in new ways...you learn to look at things in ways that are new and interesting if you haven't been brought up Jewish, which is why we have great Jewish geniuses AND great Jewish comedians...and you become part of an ongoing human evolution that has been pivotally historic and has brought us human beings, as a species, some of the most important knowledge and insights ever discovered or developed in the history of this planet.

> I worked in Manhattan for nearly a decade prior to
> relocating upstate. Most of the Jews I worked with
> in my NYC office were observant Jews. Men and
> women. Not sure whether they were Orthodox or
> Conservative or Reform, or mixed.
>
> There's a good mixed community of Jewish creeds
> upstate, but they all come together at the Jewish
> Community Center, despite their differences
> whether reform, conservative, orthodox, etc. Now
> there's Conservadox and Chassidic is popular
> (which is more orthodox.) Conservative is my
> preference because it's right in the middle,
> neither too liberal or too strict.

Yes, I am glad that I converted through Conservative auspices because it was a Halachic conversion (means: according to Jewish law), but without the things that I (personally, for myself) object to which would have been true had I converted through Orthodox rabbis.


> It actually reminds me more of my Mormon
> upbringing, as a Conservative Jew. But without all
> the discord, and dissension and suppression of
> intellect there is at the Mormon church.

The far right of the Jewish spectrum aside, there is certainly no "suppression of intellect" in Judaism!!! ;)

When I converted to Judaism, when I stood up after that third kosher dunk in the Pacific Ocean, I felt like ME---in ways I had never felt before.

I had come home.

It is as simple as that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2016 01:07PM by Tevai.

Apparently someone never read "Night" in 10th grade English

They missed April 1st by a whole week!

That blogger who is responsible for that piece of trash is an Internet troll to be so irresponsible as to post that kind of false report.

The fact he didn't provide any details of Elie's conversion to Mormonism in his bio speaks for itself. He could be open to all kinds of libel and defamation lawsuits.

Saying he is a Mormon celebrity in his headlines is bad enough. If you look at where he put it, last on the list, it is telling he is just there to bust people's chops and to be disturbing.

See how he likes it when the Elie Wiesel foundation people come calling.

It is nothing but a sick mindset of a jokester, who doesn't even have literary skills to write his own journalism. Everything he wrote about Elie is cut and pasted.

No, it's someone using that to insult Elie's legacy, and the intelligence of those reading that piece of crap on supposed Mormon celebrities.

Elie was born, lived, and will die a Jew. He will be Jewish eternally. No Mormon jackass is going to deprive him of his birthright.

For Tevai

First, thank you to amyjo and yourself for your exchange about Jewish identity. Very interesting and informative.


This next part is sensitive and I hope you will forgive me for it, but I've been curious about it my entire adult life. Here goes:

You said:

"The offspring of those who had been high school students and college-age young adults during World War II were becoming adults themselves, and there was a sudden, sharp uptick in the number of in love, engaged, and married couples where one person was Jewish and the other person was not.

"What had been somewhat exceptional before (Jewish/non-Jewish intermarriage) was suddenly rather common, and many Jewish prospective grandparents were facing a future where their grandchildren might not be Jewish. Since living Holocaust survivors were very much a part of North American life at that time, Jews across the Jewish spectrum became concerned, all over again, about Jewish survival---but this time due to intermarriage."


This "concern", how does it differ from the "concern" some white people have for what they call "white identity"? For example, one of their fears, given demographics, low birth-rates and inter-marriages, is that the "white race" will disappear from the earth. So they are against inter-marriage and encourage larger families among white people. How does their concern differ from the Jewish concern for the same?

(On a personal note, I don't believe in racial identity but do believe in cultural identity. So I get where you are coming from.)

Human

Human...

I have been thinking about this since I was very little, because when I was about four years old, my family, including ALL of my extended family, moved from the 39th Street/Santa Barbara Avenue (now: Martin Luther King Blvd.) area of Los Angeles (near Exposition Park), a neighborhood I still think of and feel is "mine," all across the huge expanse of the City of Los Angeles, to the furthest, westernmost borders of the San Fernando Valley where the City and County of Los Angeles meet Ventura County, which is ONE STEP on the other side of that mutual boundary...

...my family was the poster child of white flight, and I have been thinking about racial matters since I was, as a four-year-old, unexpectedly plunked down in a truly wonderful, historical, and scenic geographical area (where filming has been actively in process since the earliest silent films)...

...but where there was not EVER a black person in sight from the time I entered elementary school until after I graduated from high school. (Except for a specific geographical area in the northeastern SFV, where black people WERE allowed to buy or rent property, the entire rest of the valley was legally "white"...with the sole exception of a very few black, live-in employees who were allowed to live on their white employer's property, on the (by local standards) sprawling estates and horse ranches of, often, well-known movie stars and heads of studios.)

I grew up in a family where my maternal relatives were intensely racially-focused: they had grown up racist (complete with pre-Civil War slaves and later KKK membership), and for the most part, they were racist until they breathed out their last breaths...

...and their racism was frequently pretty rough for me, because I was the pro-Civil Rights person in the family, which meant to many of my maternal relatives that I was a "traitor to my own race."

So I have been thinking about this for a very long time, and my adult conclusions are:

1) Humans (specifically: homo sapiens sapiens) have been having sex with, and frequently emotionally connecting with, "everyone" around them (including other human species, and also our close primate relatives) since the beginning evolvements of "our" part of the various mammalian groups.

2) When people who were recognizably human began migrating (probably in response to local existence challenges, as well as new opportunities as land bridges either developed or became known, and the ability to create boats developed), they began changing physiologically, creating the "races" that we commonly acknowledge today. During those long periods of time when the races were developing, the different groups were more-or-less cut off from each other, and were effectively geographically isolated in groups that were reproducing more and more people who were racially very similar to each other.

3) Much, much later, when people in sufficient numbers began adventuring to new horizons again, those "just" earlier, now racial, groups (white, black, etc.) began interbreeding again, creating hybrid human racial groups of often great complexity (which we can now easily "see" with DNA analysis).

4) People have sex with people they are in close physical proximity with (and by this I mean: if groups ANYWHERE come into contact with "other" human groups, they ARE going to start interbreeding---think of any group of soldiers invading any other area during any war in the history of this planet).

5) Therefore, the "white" race (which, as we all know, is an incredibly complex mix of ancestral DNA for anyone "white") was, by the long time spectrum of human existence, a relatively temporary "blip" in human development---from a time when white people developed, and then lived in cohesive white communities, without much of any non-white "new genetics" coming into the "white" mix for a very long time---by the very long view of our species history that might be "seen" one thousand or two thousand or three thousand years from now, will prove to be temporary.

I'm pretty sure that the "white race" will be perceived, in future millennia, as an interesting "blip" in the course of human evolution on this planet.

6) No one can change their own race---and individually, none of us has ever had any control over the race we were born into. At most, the race we were born into was the result of "choices" or actions (I don't know of a better word, but I am including rape here) that were done, or made, by our biological parents.

7) I think it is obvious that the "white race" (since it was a product of near isolation from all other races for sufficient time) WILL eventually "disappear" (except for random biological throwbacks), and will gradually become any of thousands of individual shades of (mostly) brown or black (with sometimes Asian, or Native peoples, features). We are, in many respects, one global human species now---and interbreeding between individuals will create a new, and seemingly limitless, palate of human skin colors and human appearances (such as the shapes of eyes, the folds of eyelids, teeth shapes and sizes, etc.).

No one can CHOOSE the race they were born into...and no one can CHANGE the race they were born into---we, as individuals, are always the genetic result of a disparate bunch of ancestors we never knew of and will never know of.

By contrast, culture change is both achievable and relatively easy (especially if the person involved is motivated to make the change).

Post WWII Jews, because they were dealing with culture (and NOT race), DID have the viable option to interfere with the process, already underway, of possible Jewish annihilation by opening the category of "Who is a Jew?" to those non-Jews who made a conscious choice to BECOME Jews...

...REGARDLESS of the new Jew's race. (It should probably be pointed out here that Jews, including those with ancient Jewish ancestors, come from all the major racial groups which exist throughout the planet: white, black, Asian, etc.---every major racial group has at least some historical Jewish antecedents as at least some part of that racial group's biological ancestry.)

If "Jewish" was a race instead of a culture, post-WWII Jews couldn't have done this---it simply not would have been possible to do.

My personal observation: "white identity" is (and always has been, in reality) temporary among the greater, book end to book end, history of homo sapiens sapiens.

There will probably always be (for example) blonde, blue- or green-eyed people, but a few thousand years from now, they will be very much the exception, and probably most anywhere on the planet.

Great question, Human!!!

Ultimately, a very important topic...

Kudos!!! :D



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2016 04:36PM by Tevai.

Tevai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> A ["secular," or "secular-leaning" for the
> purposes of this post] rabbi who is being
> interviewed by a synagogue selection committee is
> not "call himself a believer in order to
> manipulate the system"...in most cases, the
> subject of his personal religious BELIEFS would
> never come up. (The more Orthodox the synagogue,
> the more this might come into the discussion, but
> generally, and for most congregations, it just
> wouldn't. In most congregations, most of the
> time, the selection committee is concerned with
> how this rabbi (male OR female) is going to fit
> into the existing congregation, how this rabbi
> would approach whatever problems that congregation
> is having (sinking membership numbers, etc.), and
> the committee does absolutely vet the rabbi before
> interviewing him or her: What is that rabbi's
> rabbinical training and rabbinical
> background...who were this rabbi's mentors...what
> relevant interests does the rabbi have, what is
> s/he most interested in pursuing as priority
> congregational interests...what books and articles
> relevant to the congregation has the rabbi
> published...and (inevitably) where does this rabbi
> stand on the "Israel problem" and is this rabbi's
> perspective on this problem in enough line with
> the congregation's perspective that it will not
> cause problems? In most congregations, they
> really would not care very much about the rabbi's
> personal beliefs.

I respectfully disagree with this. The fit is important, yes. But so too, the beliefs a synagogue wants to emulate from its rabbinical leader. I understand where you live is more liberal and progressive, but so are many rabbis elsewhere. Our current rabbi is from LA, he became tenured where he is now after a five year trial run. He is devoutly religious and believes in one God. The congregations I've been to are very adept at wanting someone who reflects their religious values and beliefs. Not every Jew is religious obviously. I am more familiar with those who attend shul and prayer services. Of course there are those who don't attend as in other faith creeds.

>
> Secular-leaning rabbis are NOT "charlatans"!!!
> They are well educated, well trained, Jewish
> professionals who are dedicated to the Jewish
> people and to this country and to the world, who
> put up with unconscionable sh*t (because there are
> ALWAYS "difficult" members and concerns in ANY
> congregation) and often highly-interfered-with
> personal family life (being a rabbi is a 24-hour-a
> day job, year-round), in order to do the very best
> they can for their congregants (and, frequently,
> for the world).

No that isn't what I was inferring. What I meant was if someone misrepresents themselves as being something other than they are in order to gain a job or advantage as a clergy in this case rabbinical position, but their heart isn't in it, they probably won't last long. There was a rabbi like that before the one we have now who just didn't cut it for whatever reason. He was let go. He lacked ability to inspire and be motivational and to basically lead. There are also rabbis who become corrupt or engage in sexual conduct unbecoming of their position, like anywhere else. Take for instance Rabbi Shlomo Carlbach, as one example. For years and years he molested young girls while on tour with his music concerts before he was eventually found out. He used his position to obtain both monetary and sexual favors, and social standing - but he was someone many consider to be a charlatan in his own right.


> C'mon, Amyjo...they are not paying "lip service"
> to Torah and Talmud, they are HONORING Torah and
> Talmud with their entire lives, until they die or
> they retire. A professor of literature at a
> university is not a "charlatan" or "paying lip
> service" to the literature they teach, even if
> they do NOT "believe" that the Iliad or Odyssey
> ever happened, or even if they do NOT believe that
> a man named Shakespeare wrote the plays attributed
> to him. And it has NOTHING to do with "giving
> themselves away"---they are NOT being duplicitous
> (or many of the most important rabbis alive at any
> moment in present history would no longer be
> rabbis). I grant that in YOUR synagogue belief is
> important, but this is NOT true worldwide in
> North America, nor in Europe, nor in Israel. The
> Orthodox end of the Jewish spectrum possibly
> aside, "belief" (or the lack of belief) is often
> considered a personal matter when it comes to the
> rabbi who is chosen to be employed by that
> congregation.

I imagine it wouldn't be difficult to teach religion if someone doesn't believe it to students of that religion - it would however be difficult to pretend to believe it at the same time if one felt he had to in order to keep up appearances.

Albeit a study on atheism and secular Judaism in America shows there is not a significant number of Jews who consider themselves to be humanist or atheist. Indeed only 1% of the Jewish population in American Jewry identify as such.

"In 2001, the Center for Jewish Studies, a part of The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, published a report titled the American Jewish Identity Survey (“AJIS,2001”). AJIS estimated the Jewish population of the United States at that time to be 5,497,000. Of these, about half were absolutely unaffiliated with any Jewish organization, religious or secular. Forty-four percent (44%) claimed to belong to a synagogue, temple, congregation or havurah. Twenty-five per cent (25%) said that they were involved in a secular Jewish organization. Obviously, there was some overlap in the latter two groups. (See http://www.jewishdatabank.org/Archive/N-AJIS-2001-Highlights_Report.pdf.) (At 4.)

The denominational breakdown reported was as follows: Those who identified with Reform totaled 30%, followed by Conservative at 24% and Orthodox at 8%. The Reconstructionist movement was mentioned by 1% as was Secular-Humanist."

http://www.judaismandscience.com/jewish-atheism-and-jewish-theism-the-data-and-the-dilemma/


> This has nothing to do with being "corrupt and
> dishonest," and it doesn't mean someone isn't
> "honest or genuine" BECAUSE they do not say they
> do not believe if, in fact, they do not believe.

I was referring to someone who would use religion as a means to an end, and practice deception for personal gain.

> It IS a lot of work to convert to Judaism (but
> it's fun "work": you get to learn a bunch of
> history you probably never really understood
> before (like: "where did the Canaanites
> go???)...you get to at least semi-learn a really
> interesting language that makes you think in new
> ways...you learn to look at things in ways that
> are new and interesting if you haven't been
> brought up Jewish, which is why we have great
> Jewish geniuses AND great Jewish comedians...and
> you become part of an ongoing human evolution that
> has been pivotally historic and has brought us
> human beings, as a species, some of the most
> important knowledge and insights ever discovered
> or developed in the history of this planet.

This is so very true!

> Yes, I am glad that I converted through
> Conservative auspices because it was a Halachic
> conversion (means: according to Jewish law), but
> without the things that I (personally, for myself)
> object to which would have been true had I
> converted through Orthodox rabbis.

> The far right of the Jewish spectrum aside, there
> is certainly no "suppression of intellect" in
> Judaism!!! ;)
>
> When I converted to Judaism, when I stood up after
> that third kosher dunk in the Pacific Ocean, I
> felt like ME---in ways I had never felt before.
>
> I had come home.
>
> It is as simple as that.

Well it is as simple as that then. I am glad that you found your place there, as here on RfM. There aren't too many other Jews here who understand as well as you do the tenets of Judaism, including me. I have certainly learned much from what you have shared here, and appreciate your willingness to do so.

Happy Purim btw! :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2016 11:00PM by Amyjo.

Tevai,

Can you clear this up for me? You said:

"The OTHER answer to this is that 'round about the late 1950s-early 1960s, what eventually became (by Jewish standards) major demographic changes were underway.

The offspring of those who had been high school students and college-age young adults during World War II were becoming adults themselves, and there was a sudden, sharp uptick in the number of in love, engaged, and married couples where one person was Jewish and the other person was not."

World War II ended in September of 1945. How could people who were high school age during the war have offspring who were becoming adults themselves in the late 1950's or early 1960's?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2016 05:19PM by Devoted Exmo.

I was off by a few years on the high school, but not the college years...

I extrapolated from one real life example because it is indicative of a particular and important "generation":

If someone was born in 1922, they would have gone through the Depression and, if they were fortunate, they graduated from high school in approximately 1940. WWII in the United States, which had been expected for some time by most Americans, began in December 1941.

In that general---very late 1930s, very early 1940s period--- many teenaged couples got married young and began their families soon after (they didn't know if the new husband in the family was going to survive the war, and on a practical basis, since they and their parents had gone through the often real economic tragedies of the Depression, with many of them experiencing real poverty during that period, the economic perks of marriage in the late 1930s-early 1940s were often immensely economically attractive, including a number of military benefits, plus good paying jobs (which included paid training) for every woman who wanted to enter the workforce).

Eighteen years later (give or take a few) the babies of those marriages had grown into the Rock 'n' Roll generation and---for various reasons---there was, again, a peak of teenage marriages (often either prompted by pregnancy, or where pregnancy happened soon after).

From a Jewish perspective, those new brides and grooms, whose adolescence had been highly affected by the new popular music and a new political consciousness (Rock 'n' Roll made the often-segregated experiences of black lives accessible to white teens---the Civil Rights era arrived shortly after), and similar to what had happened during WWII, were often new spouses in Jewish/non-Jewish marriages, with---for many of them---children arriving soon after. ("The Pill" had not yet been released to the general public.)

By 1957 (precisely), Jews in general were clearly able to see "the writing on the wall": Judaism was in imminent danger of becoming effectively extinct within a few generations if something was not done to intervene.

Even the more socially conservative, elder generations could see that substantive changes in attitude needed to be made if Judaism, and Jewish families, were to survive the next few generations.

Beginning in the more liberal areas of the country, initial attempts were made to see if the non-Jewish spouses in "mixed" marriages (or relationships that were evolving toward marriage) WOULD (this was initially unknown) be interested in "becoming Jewish," if "becoming Jewish" was made more ACCESSIBLE (without the necessity to deal one-on-one with an unknown rabbi, knowing that you would be turned away three times)...and if Judaism as a whole was more openly receptive to new Jews (or even non-Jews who did NOT want to become Jewish, but who now, at least, knew something about Judaism and Jewish values and culture).

What Jews found is that many of the non-Jews in mixed relationships had been interested in their spouse/future spouse BECAUSE they were Jewish. The non-Jewish partners were highly impressed by Jewish families and Jewish values (often, NON-Jewish folklore, going back a few decades prior, had advised both females and males that Jewish spouses were, in general, very good spouses: they tended to be kind and considerate husbands and wives, and their economic prospects were often superior due to the emphasis on higher education, etc. within Jewish culture).

Bottom line: the non-Jews in "mixed" relationships were often VERY interested in at least the possibility of being able to take part in Jewish family culture and in Jewish culture generally, which in many cases DID come with economic benefits (greatly increased higher education rates, high amounts of successful family business ownerships, emphasis on educated children to the limits of their individual potentials, etc.).

To general Jewish surprise, there was great receptivity by non-Jews to greater openness within the larger Jewish community.

And, thus, was born the "Intro" class---which allowed non-Jews instant access to friendly and receptive rabbis, and a fully-disclosed-in-advance, step-by-step way to become Jewish (either in a few months, or in a year---some congregations and Jewish institutions had year-long programs initially, and some still do).

This was an excellent question, Devoted Exmo...Thank you!!!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2016 06:45PM by Tevai.

I guess I naturally assumed you meant people from Europe who were high school age when the war broke out. They certainly didn't marry or start families (if they were lucky enough to survive as those odds were starkly against them) until after the war. That would put them having children in '47 at the earliest.

As to Jews in America, sure, numbers of them had children prior to the war breaking out and those kids would have had their own take of life.

But what I know of actual European Jewish survivors of the Holocaust who were lucky enough to immigrate to America, their parents were generally distressed about their life prior to immigration and shared little, if nothing with their children. They were conflicted in all aspects of religious identity and wanted their children to be normal, American kids.

Calling Elie Wiesel Mormon carries about as much weight with me as calling Anne Frank Mormon. It is rude and insulting.

To Tevai -- I once responded to an ad for a teacher that was placed by a local Jewish day school. I was surprised as to how open they were to interviewing me (as a nominal Christian) for a teaching position. While I was certainly open to teaching Jewish religion and culture, ultimately I decided that the children deserved a Jewish teacher. But the open-mindedness of the school administration strikes me to this day. I am quite certain that the local Christian schools would have zero interest in me since I am currently non-practicing.