Back in the 80 I listened to tapes of talks by a Jewish convert who recounted witness statements of Angels appearing before the Arib armies to turn them away and various other devine manesfestations of the time. As an investigator I was completely taken in by these bs stories. I haven't thought about them for many years but now as we hear how many of these faith promoting lies are being called out. Does anyone remember these specific stories.

To clarify...

This story is about a [presumably Israeli] Jew who, after seeing angels who "turned away Arab armies" [???], then converted to Mormonism???

Why would an Israeli Jew think of MORMONISM if s/he witnessed such an event, and then decided to convert to a CHRISTIAN group, because (I suppose) somehow, the angels must have identified themselves as Christian angels rather than Jewish angels???

The story doesn't make sense, because "angels"---malachim, in Hebrew---ARE part of Jewish literature and culture, even if there aren't that many Jews who actually believe they exist. (Jews most often take the word "malachim" to be more of a linguistic metaphor instead of an actual entity.)

I am nevermo, and I have never heard this story before (or if I read of it here on RfM, I don't remember)...

...but in my conversion TO Judaism class, we did have a BIC Mormon who was going through the conversion to Judaism process, so I'm not sure if all that many Jews become Mormons, but I know for a fact that at least some Mormons DO become Jews.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2016 12:29AM by Tevai.

It comes from a book called, "Israel Do You Know"by Legrand Richards.

It's out of print, but I bought one from the DI years ago.

Apparently, you can buy it on Amazon.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2016 12:31AM by okie.

okie Wrote:
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> It comes from a book called, Israel Do You Know"by
> Legrand Richards.
>
> It's out of print, but I bought one from the DI
> years ago.

Thank you, okie!!!

:) :) :)

You're welcome!

Probably one of those faith promoting stories that never happened or quiche was exaggerated to the point that it bore no resemblance to the actual event. Mormonism is full of them.

What I find most interesting, bona dea, is that angels evidently are aware of whether they are Christian angels or Jewish angels.

I've never thought about how angels perceive their own identity before, but if this story was maybe true, every angel would have to always know whether they, as individuals, were Christian, or Jewish...

...or Muslim??? (I THINK there are angels in Islam, but I don't know for sure.)

Can angels convert from one religion or tribal identity to another???

Do they have to go through a conversion process in order to do it???

;) ;) ;)

I would guess that most Israelis are,at best,only marginally aware of Mormons. Seeing an angel, they would not assume it was Mormon or even Christian since angels are part of the Jewish tradition too. The whole story is silly unless the angel stopped in the middle of routing the Arab armies to announce that he was a Mormon.

bona dea unregistered Wrote:
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> I would guess that most Israelis are,at best,only
> marginally aware of Mormons. Seeing an angel, they
> would not assume it was Mormon or even Christian
> since angels are part of the Jewish tradition too.
> The whole story is silly unless the angel stopped
> in the middle of routing the Arab armies to
> announce that he was a Mormon.

My feelings as well. :D

which Arab-Israeli war ?

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
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> which Arab-Israeli war ?

I was wondering this same thing as well. :)

I would guess the 6 Day War. It was certainly the most stunning victory.

I don't remember these stories, specifically, but apparently there were many going around, not just among Mormons. You can do a Google search on angels, Israel, Arab, war and find quite a few results with links to stories of angelic/divine intervention on behalf of Israel in modern historical conflicts:

https://www.google.com/search?q=angels%20arab%20israeli%20war&biw=1517&bih=714&ei=cu8BV8fuF8HamwHbg4B4&start=0&sa=N&bav=on.2%2Cor.&bvm=bv.118443451%2Cd.eWE&ion=1&rct=j


The quote referred to in the title of this post is as follows:

"Dr Victor Pearce, a noted scientist, archaeologist and theologian, comments in his book "Prophecy", that, as in subsequent wars between Arab and Jew, angelic action on Israel’s side was responsible for the nascent Jewish state achieving victory [in 1948] against all the odds.

"He writes: 'What had caused such a dramatic reversal? Strange rumours were coming in. Invaders from the south reported that they were confronted by legions of unknown troops clothed in white. The Israeli troops reported similar stories.'”

http://www.christiansforzion.com/comment-chris-proudlove/2013/10/30/did-angels-help-achieve-israeli-victory-over-arabs-in-1948


(Reminds me of stories I heard in the MTC of angels standing on each others' shoulders to protect the missionary dorms from "legions" of satan's minions attempting to invade.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2016 01:01AM by lurking in.

There was a Guideposts book, circa 1994 as I recall, titled "Angels on the battlefield." It included true accounts of angelic intervention from numerous wars over the annals of time, up to the Iraq Kuwait Persian Gulf War.

I don't remember reading that particular account, but there were other fascinating stories, many shared by eye witnesses who were present on the battlefield as they occurred.

But being able to separate angels by religion? Hadn't even considered that before. I've pictured angelic duty and devotion as non-denominational because they serve a single deity who as omnipotent doesn't follow man-made religions. And I believe in a deity that is no respecter of religions per se, since every single person is eligible for divine intercession, whether seen or unseen. Like grace, it is something that is given freely or not at all.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But being able to separate angels by religion?
> Hadn't even considered that before. I've pictured
> angelic duty and devotion as non-denominational
> because they serve a single deity who as
> omnipotent doesn't follow man-made religions. And
> I believe in a deity that is no respecter of
> religions per se, since every single person is
> eligible for divine intercession, whether seen or
> unseen. Like grace, it is something that is given
> freely or not at all.

...yeah...THIS is why I was so puzzled.

Why should the appearance of [unidentified by religion] angels lead a [presumably] Israeli Jew, IN ISRAEL (it is during unspecified Israeli-"Arab" combat] to decide to convert to MORMONISM???

Wouldn't this be on the same level of believability as Zoroastrian angels [I Googled: Zoroastrians DO believe in angels] appearing to an American Mormon soldier under fire in Afghanistan, and the appearance convinces him/her to convert to Zoroastrianism???

The angels who did appear to this soldier would HAVE to be specifically Zoroastrian angels, because otherwise, why would THIS American Mormon soldier decide to convert to ZOROASTRIANISM (a religion this Mormon solider probably has never previously heard of). Right???



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2016 01:50PM by Tevai.

Maybe the angels had their pants down, thus ID'ing them as mormon in origin?

The story that Richards recounted in "Israel! Do You Know?" was also published in "Signs of the Times" (pp. 227-29) by Joseph Fielding Smith. It was given a particular Mormon spin. Here it is in its entirety.

"There are some interesting stories told of divine intervention in behalf of the Jews during these days of bitter opposition and open warfare. While we cannot vouch for the truth of such statements, yet there may be a possibility that they are true. One such story is told by Mr. Arthur H. [sic] Michelson in 'The Jewish Hope' published in Los Angeles. We give it here and leave it for each reader to draw his own conclusion:

'It is marvelous what God did for the Jews, especially in Jerusalem, during the fighting with Arabs. Though quite a few months had passed since the victory of Israel's army in Israel, they were still telling about what had taken place. Everywhere I went I heard how God had intervened in their behalf, and how He helped them win the battles. One of the officials told me how much the Jews had to suffer. They had hardly anything with which to resist the heavy attacks of the Arabs, who were well organized and equipped with the latest weapons. Besides, they had neither food nor water because all their supplies were cut off.

'The Arabs who had a great army in strong position, were determined to destroy the Jews, while the Jews were few in number, without any arms and ammunition. The two or three guns they possessed had to be rushed from one point to another, to give the Arabs the impression that they had many of them. The Jews had quite a few tin cans which they beat as they shot the guns, giving the impression of many shots. But as the pressure was too great, they were unable to hold the lines any longer and finally decided to give up the city. At this critical moment God showed them that He was on their side, for He performed one of the greatest miracles that ever happened. The Arabs then suddenly threw down their arms and surrendered. When their delegation appeared with the white flag, they asked, "Where are the three men that led you, and where are all the troops we saw?" The Jews told them that they did not know anything of the three men, for this group was their entire force. The Arabs said that they saw three persons with long beards and flowing white robes, who warned them not to fight any longer, otherwise they would all be killed. They became so frightened that they decided to give up. What an encouragement this was for the Jews, who realized that God was fighting for them.'

"Mr. Michelson relates several other incidents of a similar nature where it appeared that the Lord had intervened in behalf of the Jews when they were at the mercy of their enemies."


[Hmm. Three men with robes and beards… three men… could it possibly be…]

William A. Wilson, "The Paradox of Mormon Folklore," BYU Studies, Vol. 17, No. 1 (Autumn 1976), p. 51:

"In some accounts three men with white flowing beards appear to the Arab generals and warn them to surrender or to face annihilation. The story, one of the most popular Nephite accounts to develop in recent years[13], has been attached to all the Arab-Israeli wars: the 1948 War, the 1956 War, the 1967 War, and the recent war that brought about the oil crisis. It persuades those who believe it that God's plans for the Jews will not be thwarted and that he will not allow the wrong side to win in the Middle East."

[fn 13] "This story seems to have entered the Nephite tradition from printed sources… Both President Smith and Elder Richards cited as their source an article in 'The Jewish Hope' by Arthur U. Michelson. Neither of them argued that the men in the story were Nephites but merely suggested that they might have been."


Of course! The Three Stooges… er, Nephites! How could Joseph Smith have possibly known there would be three of them? So THAT'S what they've been doing – helping the Jews win wars! So one might reasonably ask where they were from, say, 1942 to 1945, when they could have been just a wee bit more helpful. (Probably checking out Lamanite porn, I'd wager.)

Thanks for this, Book of Mordor...

...very interesting, and most helpful. :)



Book of Mordor Wrote:
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> So THAT'S what they've been
> doing – helping the Jews win wars! So one might
> reasonably ask where they were from, say, 1942 to
> 1945, when they could have been just a wee bit
> more helpful.

Yeah...I know some people who could have REALLY used some heavenly help from the 1930s through the 1940s.

Beginning with the onset of Jewish immigration to what is now Israel (during the British Mandate which existed throughout WWII), BOTH sides (Israeli AND Palestinian) have been in real need of divine intervention.

I don't understand why God, or God's appointed helpers, would be so unfairly (and inhumanely) partisan on an issue which affects human beings on BOTH "sides" equally---especially since both groups ostensibly worship this very same God.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2016 03:46PM by Tevai.

With his golden trumpet in one hand and a Book of Mormon in the other the angel drifted down over the battlefield. His white robes fluttered around him in the cold morning breeze and he wished he'd listed to heavenly mother and worn his long underwear. Any underwear at all would have been warmer...

silvergenie Wrote:
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> With his golden trumpet in one hand and a Book of
> Mormon in the other the angel drifted down over
> the battlefield. His white robes fluttered around
> him in the cold morning breeze and he wished he'd
> listed to heavenly mother and worn his long
> underwear. Any underwear at all would have been
> warmer...

:D :D :D