There's so few people who I know who are mature enough to listen to my problems and give me practical (non-TBM) answers.

There's this girl. I don't know if I've brought her up before. I'm not just stricken with her good looks. She is kinda big, but that doesn't bother me. I like her personality. She's fun, cute, playful, and she likes watching and critiquing movies with me. We'd drive around Rexburg in my ghetto car and just talk about stuff.

Well, I started to feel guilty (as I do) about being a nonbeliever who hadn't told her yet. One of our dates was sitting in my car staring at the temple. (There's at least half a dozen other cars who get the same idea on any given night before curfew tolls).

I felt so bad, I told her I couldn't see her anymore and it was best if I didn't tell her why. Well, that upset her, and she cried in front of her roommates, telling them, not to expose me but because she didn't get it, that I didn't want to date her anymore because I didn't want a temple marriage. Well, that gave them all the impression that I was the devil, so they ran and told her bishop.

Meanwhile, it was the very next day, she and I were texting and I just told her I was an adamant unbeliever and was even active online writing things against the church. She was shocked at first, but after a little talking, she seemed to make sense of the situation and things were awkward and ambiguous after that.

I didn't give her the CESletter and say "here, read this." I told her I was starting to care about her and I didn't want to drag her into my bullshit. Well, we had a few more dates, and she in turn dumped all her baggage on me, and we had one of those great chats like only a TBM or former TBM could know where you talk with someone who finally helps your life make some goddamned sense and it eases your anxiety a lot. We made out in my car after that, but I stopped part way through and told her we shouldn't flirt with the situation any more. She told me she wants a temple marriage, and I can't give that to her and I won't try because I will not be forced into a corner where I have to be actively dishonest with myself.

We decided we were "just friends," and she soon met another guy who I teased her was going to drop the M-word within three weeks. I'm a better prophet than Joseph Smith Jun.

We fell out of touch for most of the semester, and then just today she calls me up and says she needs to talk to me. So I invite her over and we just start talking naturally again like we do. We hop in my car and do a few laps around Rexburg just talking about what's on her mind. She was having a lot of anxiety about whether or not to tell this new guy she's dating about her baggage. You know: the scenario where she repented, but she doesn't know whether to forget about it and move on or to tell him and risk dragging this out forever. It tore at her to think that she would progress with him to a point where if he found out and was disappointed she didn't confess sooner, he would throw it in her face.

I gave all the best advice I possibly could and even tried to speak from my old believing point of view, and I hope I was able to help her just a little bit. But part of me in my mind was screaming, "don't do it. This is exactly why temple marriages are hell. I'm right here. I understand you. I won't judge you. I like you. Why are you doing this to yourself?" But I canned it. She's been very clear to me about what she wants (which feels more like a prejudice against what I am –– an atheist –– than a fixed determination based on an absolute certainty of what she wants for herself). I gambled on telling her about me and my thoughts because I wanted to see for once what could happen between me and a girl in this new world I live in. I felt good right up until she left, but then this depression came like train out of the dark and broadsided me.

I'm thinking, "what did I do that was so wrong that I deserve to be lonely among the only culture I've ever known?" Because I looked at porn? Because I don't believe anymore? what? I fucking tried my hardest and in the end none of it mattered because it was all bologna. That doesn't mean I wanna eat, drink, and fuck a lotta women with no deep personal relationships with anyone. I want companionship. Not marriage per se. Not just sex either. Just... companionship. Someone to be with. Someone to share things with. This girl was someone I could almost take home to mom and dad, and I would have been happy to live a dry NEO-mormon life around my family and around hers.

But Mormonism has thrown up all these barriers that have tormented me in my mind since before I was twelve: voices that say that love isn't for me, it's for someone else. But I'm a nice guy. I feel like I can say that without sounding conceited because it took me more than 25 years to figure it out and finally believe it too. I could have made a mormon girl so happy, but I'll never get the chance to have that with any girl I've ever had my eyes on because they're all mormon. I want to drown myself in something alcoholic right now, but Madison country doesn't sell any kind of liquor after fucking 4 pm!!!!!!!!!!!

I wish I would have met someone like you when I was your age. It didn't happen. I married a RM(in the temple) who was a lying, cheating drug addict. I divorced him 24 months later. If I could have lived with him first, it would have saved me a ton of turmoil.

I stayed single for 10 years after that nightmare. When I did remarry, I married a nevermo who had zero clue what i'd been through. It was rough. We both had too much emotional stuff to deal with. Too bad we didn't go through therapy together, I think we could have stayed together.

Being exmo isn't easy. However, I do have a happy (ending?). I've now been married for 26 years to a guy who was raised Lutheran, but went mormon after we'd been married a year. I was an exmo at the time, and he was a nevermo. We had 3 kids that we (mistakenly) thought we should take to church. The Lutheran church in our town wasn't a good fit. It was a small town full of Lutheran gossips. The mormon church was 30 miles away, and we were the only mormons in our town. People in our town didn't know what a mormon was.Ironic since we lived in Ohio and close to Kirtland.

We stayed mormon for 20 years. We left the church together with my 2 adult kids. That was 2011. We're happy about it. Our kids are doing well. None of us have hooked up with any religion, and probably won't.

My mormon family have all ran for the hills. I'm ok with that. Didn't like most of them anyway. Life is good. You never know what tomorrow may bring. Keep moving forward. That's really the only choice we all have. Move forward and you will find and meet people who you never imagined. It's a fascinating journey that's filled with surprises.

I edit to add that I just read my post and it sounds a bit depressing. Yes there were some bad times. However, I have to say that the majority of my life has been filled with joy. Especially the last 26 years. Hubby and I just celebrated our 25th in Maui for almost 3 weeks. Mai Tai's are a wonderful thing! We've stuck it out through thick and thin. We're in this for the long haul. We've put together a very nice life in the last 26 years. My kids view him as their "father" even though he's their step dad. We have 3 really good kids. None of them are kids that we had "together" but that doesn't matter. We raised all 3 of them from the time they were 3,5, and 6. We are family no matter what.

We now have 4 grandkids. Three are being raised by my stepson as TBM. One will never be mormon if their parents have their way:)

I don't know if stepson will ever change his mormon ways, but time will tell. One thing i've learned is that we never know what's just around the corner. Life is full of huge surprises. Live to be the best you can be. You'll be amazed at who will walk into your life unannounced. I met my husband at the corner sandwich shop when I was on the way home from seeing my divorce attorney. Turns out his sister owned the place and he went there often for lunch. You just never know.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2016 01:28AM by madalice.

I'm so sorry. I wish I had some decent advice to give. I think she is losing out on a good guy for a fairytale of lies. Don't give up hope. Relationships sometime happen when you least expect it.

Cold-Dodger - Have you thought about dating a non-TBM girl? You will most likely need to leave Rexburg to meet non-TBM girls, but it will be worth it. You do sound like a nice guy. A non-TBM will appreciate you for who you are not some mold they want you to fit in.

How? I'm sorry if that sounds stupid, but I've been robbed of so much self-confidence by tscc.

CD, someday she's going to look back and kick herself. My advice to her is: keep your past in the past! She owes this guy her loyalty as long as they're involved. She doesn't owe him her guilt. Confessing may even make her feel good at the moment, but, with him being tbm, there's a good chance he will never see her the same way again. Don't give someone that kind of ammunition. It's poison. Do. not. do. this. to. yourself. Please...

More importantly, YOU are a good guy. You will be an excellent partner. But you need to quit looking for truth in a place where the lie's enshrined and worshipped.

My 2¢, FWIW, is threefold. First, find someone who can listen to you, somebody you don't have to worry they're going to report you to the morality police.I'd suggest a non-mo therapist, even if you have to go to Idaho Falls. Call a hotline and ask for suggestions, or try asking a god you can rely on: google.

Second, get out of byu-i asap. It's necessary for your mental well-being. You won't believe the relief of getting away from the gossip and groupthink, to where you can be yourself, and people respect that.

Last, be good to yourself. Get some exercise, it'll help you sleep better. Maybe join a gym? Go easy on the booze. Nothing wrong with a drink, but drinking to forget, drinking alone, you risk ending up with killer hangover--and I know you know this.

Cut yourself some slack. Give yourself credit. Frankly, I think you're doing pretty well considering your lack of familial support plus being stuck in mo-mo land where people run the other way screaming, "I can't hear you," rather than discuss something not preapproved. This disingenuous attitude at an institution of supposed higher learning-god, CD, how do you stand the constant cognitive dissonance?

So, I don't mean to sound preachy, or to be a nag, but lots of us care about you. You've got an amazing brain, you're a loyal and loving brother, a son to be proud of, a fun and supportive friend, and excellent boyfriend material. You'll find someone you deserve, so hang in there.

FWIW I did the google thing and found a bunch of therapists, counselors, etc. after typing in: therapists Idaho Falls. Some are even in Rexburg. I clicked on some profiles, & several listed non-church schools as their alma maters. Better than listing BYU, but it'll take some research. There were a few you can eliminate off the bat from the wording they use. On the left hand side was a list of parameters, one of which is religion. Click and several choices appear, but "none" isn't one of them. Too bad.

OR, go to http:/seculartherapy.org. The heading is Recovery from Religion and a fill-in profile pops up. You give them info (can keep your name anonymous, it looks like) and they get back to you with names of therapists in your area.

May be helpful? Sorry I don't know how to do direct links. :/

You're living in a goldfish bowl. So all you are likely to find is...goldfish. You need to get out to the warm, sunlit ocean. Swim a little bit. Find your reef. Find a cute little clownfish. Be happy and have adventures together with her.

Corny analogy, I know. But the principle applies. Don't worry. Be happy. Download that song and put it on your playlist. You're going to be okay. :)

One of the many damaging things Mormonism does is makes people your age think they need to get married right away. That kind of commitment should be the furthest thing from your mind right now. You're young. You have a whole world to experience. Your prefrontal cortex hasn't even finished developing yet. You and this girl (or any other girl) should be getting to know yourselves and each other and having fun, not trying to figure out if a third date means you should get married. That's insane.

The need and desire for relationship and connection is powerful. Be comfortable looking for it without feeling so desperate that you cling to whatever comes along, no matter how unsuitable. It really is better to spend some time alone than to get yourself stuck in a bad relationship.

Also, be careful about using booze to deal with emotions. I really enjoy alcohol, and it has its place. Just make sure you're the one in control.

Summer, Corny or not, it's a perfect description.


CD, I don't think you're trapped by religion at all, but finances. What I don't understand is why you don't put that awesome brain of yours to work finding options - alternate financing.

I've read your disbelief of moism, your disgust at it's power structures, the way they treat money as god and people like shit. It sort of gobsmacked me that you wrote you would be okay being a jack mo. I don't think you would be okay with seeing it harm any family you may create. - I can't see you being okay paying for your child to go to a third-world country, say. <Insert a very big list here.>

It's probably harder than you're admitting to lose this girl you liked to mormanism, adding now counseling her how to keep a new guy. OMG. Talk about self-denial.

And so what - you have issues/baggage. Big news for you, most people do. You are not lesser for having been mormon. You are not lesser because they tell you so. I suspect you're plain scared of not being surrounded by the familiar you hate. At least you know what to expect - abuse, and how to minimize it. Sorry if that offends, but I've been there.

I know you're not thriving in this particular goldfish bowl, that you're struggling, and lonliness is a big part of it. The "English" (nomo) girls are going to amaze you, and you are twiddling your thumbs looking for companionship at BYU. Nevermo guys will amaze you, too. I don't think you have any experience of guys being guys - just hanging out, doing nevermo guy things. You will learn.

When you are not motivated to do your studies, get online and find out how to get the hell out of BYU. Do it like a job. Work at it until you are where you can be who you want to be. You can DO this!

Don't let fear freeze you or steal any more of your life and time. Look at it this way: Looking for options does not mean that you are obligated to act on what you find, but it will empower you to act if you so choose. Virtually visit other schools. Pick up the phone and ask questions. Call the peace corps. Nevermos are not the devil, and most are really decent. It's not like there's a university for exmos, so you're going to NEED to be among mostly nevermos at some point, to be yourself.

I think that if you were financially independent, you would have already left, so that's why I think fearing lack of provision is bigger than fear of nevermos. But, I do think it's both.

So shoot me if I'm way off the mark, or write my thoughts too bluntly. It's the best online "companion" that I know how to be, baggage and all.

No, I think you hit the nail on the head. Afraid of the unfamiliar. With what's familiar, I hate it, but I at least have learned how to minimize it so it can't hurt me like it used to. But it still does in other ways because it will deny me life's experiences because I wouldn't take the plunge on their terms.

We're getting close to something in my psyche I should probably see a professional for. I used to have dreams as a kid where I would get in fights or make a stand to a bully (I've never been in a fight in my life) only to discover that I was a weakling. The dream-me would throw a punch that felt like my strength was withering in a way almost while my fist was flying, and my opponent would laugh at me.

I'm going to free write right now and see what comes of it. Growing up as an anxious kid, I think nevermos were a great source of triggers. They laughed at me. They would never pick me for their team. They talked about me when they thought I was out of ear shot. I heard the things they said. I saw the looks in their faces when I realized I'd heard: they hoped I'd heard every word. I wasn't welcome. It felt hostile. Then I start coming of hat age where young men's kicks in, and I don't feel worthy but I don't feel unwelcome and people leave me alone unless it's with he bishop or my parents. I became really close with my parents and some of my teachers. Being praised for my school work was something I lived for because I wasn't self-generating anything mental food for self esteem in those days at all. I was an A and B student all the way until community college. I was happy to put off thoughts of careers and school for two years to serve a mission in Iowa. I was bogged down my an unworthiness complex and even had some companions that would emotionally abuse me for being clumsy. One, I remember told me to my face, "I don't get it:you're, like, smart, but you're dumb too." After my mission,it was like everything just collapsed. The last jenga block holding the whole thing up was pulled out. I knew I was at that point in Mormonism where I had to get married, but I knew I didn't want to and would fuck it up if I did. My parents were the only consistent good thing throughout all these twists and turns in my life. They're good to me, but I know in some ways my latching on to them is working against me finding a competent place of mind to be in the world: getting a job of my own, living alone, etc. they love me; but this love entails a desire for me to never live very far away or to be very far away for very long. They want me to be in and around our Mormon extended family gatherings. I love all of my family. They never abused me. Mormonism abused me. People at school abused me. I abused myself in the negative scenarios I played again and again in my head and the avoidance of triggers that followed. I'm a wreck. I'm getting better, but I'm still a wreck and I am afraid. Nothing scares me more than leaving my cocoon of Mormonism. I'm all nested up here and though I can see with eyes wide open what the church is now, I wish it could be reformed, or rather, I never wanted to fill my life with other human faces than those which I know and have known and he familiar ways in which I know I can meet more. Reaching out to these recovery groups has been a huge step for me, but it's not enough on its own.

Thought dump over.

I hope that you don't judge all nevermos by one certain group of knuckleheads. You will find your friends. I've met a lot of great people over the years, in college and grad school, at work, in roommate situations, and as neighbors. Yes, there have been a few duds along the way. But you just steer clear of them and focus on the good ones.

As much as you love your family, you will need to get away from them, at least for a few years. Go to Portland, or Seattle, or Denver, or some such place. Go someplace new where you can figure out who you are without the Mormon chains around you, a place where you can be young and adventurous and carefree. I spent eight years at a great distance from my family, and another eight years close enough to visit on 3-day weekends. It was good for me to do that. It helped me to establish myself and gain confidence. It helped me to see and try new things. I think that you need that opportunity as well.

So Rick's College still imposes a curfew? Juvenile.

Prohibition on selling booze after 4 pm? Criminal.

Better not to lose yourself in booze nonetheless. You don't need the DUI or depression that accompanies that in Rexburg. Since you're still there for the duration of this semester, it may be wise to buck up and wait out the storm, until it passes.

Hang in there. When you get out of Rexburg, there will be plenty of women out there who would be thrilled to be with a guy like you.

This girl wanted to be with you, too. But her programming was too strong. Her loss, even more than yours.

you are an idiot. it's not your fault because you are not a predatory male but for future reference, when a girl you have been close to comes to you about a current boyfriend and a dilemma she may be having, what she really means (subconsciously) is I DON'T WANT THIS, I REALLY WANT YOU.

Most 'normal' guys would have pinned her there and then, if she were also 'normal' but since you are both mormon, you are behaving like the rural irish kids who need the services of the traditional matchmaker because they are too shy to matchmake themselves. Look it up.

Next time a girl comes to tell you her misgivings about her current beau tell her what she wants to hear: that she's too good for him. If she is not comfortable speaking to him from the heart then he is not for her. You love her and know it would be difficult but if she is willing to put up with her family crap you would be more than willing to give it a try. That kinda thing.

Now, go look at yourself in the mirror and repeat these words: "I will never misinterpret a similar situation again - I will always be bold enough to voice my wishes". Ask and it shall be given / if you don't ask then you do not get.

I cannot give you any advice for this girl. Actually, as a female at BYU-I she's hardly more than a baby due to the level of repression and retarded growth allowed a female raised as a Mormon. Since she already knows you don't believe Mormonism, you can be honest and just say that you don't think she is ready for the real world yet. Take a few more years. Advise her to know her chosen mate REALLY well. If he dumps her it's because Mormon guys cannot have sex before marriage so they marry without thinking much. Her past actions are not the issue here. But LDS, Inc. encourages fast and early marriages to keep the baby factories going. And if she doesn't marry young she runs the risk of not finding another halfway decent guy who is LDS for the rest of her life. She will also get lots of pressure to snag this guy. I pity her. Past transgressions are the least of her worries. That really shouldn't even be the issue.

But I can tell YOU a thing or two. I lived and worked in Rexburg. Most of the world, including Idaho, doesn't even know the place exists except for the Mormons. And after reading here about how many people in the world actually are Mormon (not the church's made-up figures) you are seeing things in a very distorted manner. Only a tiny bit of the world population actually is Mormon and only a fraction of those are sincerely practicing the faith. Even going to Boise would be a mind opener if you could live there awhile.

If you are a BYU-I student you cannot be all that old. Most men in the world today marry in their mid to later 30's after they have finished schooling and had a chance to get some real world experience and a successful career going. Only in Mormon DUMB do they push the youth to wed.

Get the humus out of Rexburg !!! ASAP!! It's a completely fabricated environment. Meet some real women, not babes in arms. Yes, many LDS girls are sweet, nice, adorable but hopelessly brainwashed, led by the nose, and deluded. A guy with a brain who has thought his way out of Mormonism is a catch. Believe me. I haven't been following your posts but please don't let money be the sole reason for staying at a church sponsored school. Do whatever it takes to leave. If you have to stay, for family reasons, in the morridor then get your family to agree to sending you to Univ. of Utah. At least you will see some mature, adult women and wonder why you agonized so much over Mormon girls. Plenty of good "women" are looking for compatibility above temple marriage and are fine with dating for as many years as it takes to get a good fit. As a man you've got loads of time. Don't squander it on Mormons.

One of the girls at BYU-I fell deeply in love with a non-Mormon fellow from home and got engaged. Her father was a Stake President and forbade the marriage. Instead she married an RM chosen by her father and was miserable. The guy looked good but underneath was a horror. They divorced and she reconnected with her non-Mormon ex-fiance and they have been living together ever since without benefit of marriage. Her dad really messed-up her early days.

Take heart. All you need is to get out of that H- hole and you will find plenty of great companionship.

P.S. I was once an insider and the temple was built and Ricks turned into a 4-year school because LDS, Inc. was losing too many young adults to the world. If they can get kids married at BYU-I they have a better chance of chaining them to an LDS lifestyle and raising well indoctrinated kids. They want to keep the cycle going. Too many students were going to Non-LDS schools and getting out of LDS, Inc.

It's better to dump your feelings here than to drown them in alcohol. It might be better to use alcohol to be happy and relaxed with people around you.

When I was a young TBM high-school boy I met a girl who I could talk to like no one I had ever met. She was an ex-Mormon. She never really had been a Mormon. I was devastated to find out she didn't believe. For that reason and because she had a boyfriend, we stayed friends. I don't think I have ever had a better friend.

I took her to prom senior year because her boyfriend was too cheap to take her. We had a good time. When I dropped her off at her house she said, "lets go around to the back door." Right close to the back door was her bedroom. I did so much want to kiss her, but all I could think was if I kissed her one thing might lead to another and I would end up in the bedroom, so I didn't kiss her. I gave her a hug goodnight.

We stayed friends until my mission, but on my mission I lived in a haze of depression and lost track of almost all of my friends.

When I got home I met a girl, my friends didn't think she was attractive, but I did. Mostly I loved the sound of her voice. She wasn't Mormon. She joined the church. We got engaged. She went to her home country to visit her family. Her mother told her to break it off because they lived in a poor country and needed the money my fiancé sent.

From what I recently heard her mother told her to marry someone in the home country, and she obeyed. She was apparently in tears the next day telling her sister that she really loved me, but now she was married to this other guy. All she told me was that her mom said she couldn't marry me and that I should forget about her.

I was in a sad dark place for a long time after that until I met a woman who I hung out with a lot until we had sex. I decided that at this point the decision was made. I had sex with her, now I had to marry her. So I did.

I did and still do love her, but our marriage has followed a pattern where she becomes dissatisfied and rages, and I capitulate. Gradually she became more TBM and I fell away. Recently I broke a promise and had beer, 25 oz., Utah strength. She told me it was over and had me pack my bags, kicked me out, then alternately raged at me for leaving and for wanting to come home. I got home about 1:00 AM after walking around in the cold for most of the night. A few days later she calmly talked about splitting up for a large part because I had become an unbeliever. We talked and talked. I offered solutions, she rejected all of them. I finally agreed that we should split. We started talking about arrangements for the split when she suddenly said that she thought we could make it work, we just needed to be more understanding.

So I am currently getting my ducks in a row for the next time it happens. For her sake, I am done drinking, but I'm also done with rages.

Anyway, I think, if this woman is a good friend keep her as a good friend. I think annonuk is right. She probably doesn't want this guy. Maybe point that out to her. Stay clear that you are never coming back to the Church, and you aren't ready for marriage for a few years. Just honor a great friendship for what it is and let it go where it goes. If she wants to make out understanding your positions about the church and marriage right now, I'd say that's her choice, and if not, that's a choice to respect too.

Overall, I don't know if there is anything better than good friendship.

Just a word of advice to you -- the next time your wife tells you to leave, tell her that *she* is the dissatisfied party and therefore *she* is the one who can choose to leave. Tell her to go home to her parents. Don't let her kick you out of your own house.

Leaving your home could have adverse consequences should the situation ever come to divorce.

Being in Rexburg is like being in the state prison except you didn't commit a crime.

If you split rent with another person or two [who think like you], could you get an apartment somewhere other than Rexburg?

From what I've heard Rexburg is worse than Provo/Orem. Rexburg is one of your worst problems right now because it hinders everything else you do and lays a huge guilt trip on you to make it all worse. You don't need or deserve that. You really do sound like a nice guy.

Lots of good advice in the above comments. You sound like a very intelligent young man, and a genuinely nice guy, and I know you will work your way through this. Best of luck to you!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2016 04:04PM by cinda.