Things have calmed down some at home after the initial shock my wife went through when I told her I didn't want to go to church anymore. Things definitely picked up last night. She pretty much let it all out.

-She sometimes thinks that if something were to happen to her, the kids would be better off going with her friends or family than with me because I wouldn't give them the church stuff they need at home.

-She acknowledges that I'm still a good person but then says that just being good isn't enough. There are plenty of good people out there and she doesn't want to be married to any of them.

-I've been taking things slow, talking about things one at a time with her when it comes to making changes. She called this wishy-washy and not knowing what I want. She said that if I no longer believe I should just do what I want regarding tithing, WoW, and underwear all at once rather than taking them on one at a time for her sake. She said to just rip it off like a bandaid.

-She also said that it's been almost 10 years since her mission and now that I'm not at church with her it feels like she has nothing, she's gained nothing since that time. She had this plan in mind and where we are at was never part of her plan.

It was a rough night. I had been becoming more and more optomistic for our future together.But she said a few things last night that made me start to lose hope again. Maybe she just needs to vent and we can move on, maybe this is the beginning of the end. Time will tell.

The only thing I can think of is to let her know you love her and are sad for her pain.

Personally, I have to wonder how a God could be loving if He's going to put people in such a situation. I have to assume that she loves you -- you're married after all -- is love so worthless in the Mormon paradigm?

This is why I've developed such a hearty dislike towards religion. It's the judgmental attitudes. Yes, you're still a good person, but it's not enough?! You leaving the Church invalidates her entire last decade?! What? Yikes!

I'm sorry you're going through this discouragement. All you can do is all you can do. After that, the ball's in her court as to what she wants to do with her life.

I hope it works out okay and that she'll be able to adjust, but in the Mormon Church, I know it's hard to be optimistic.

as human beings to make changes and change our mind about anything in our lives. There are no set rules for our whole life.

As adults we can evaluate our belief systems and make changes.
Your wife is responding on an emotional level, not an intellectual one.

Just because we were raised a certain way doesn't mean we are obligated to continue with it for the rest of our life.

There are no fantasy spouses, children, parents, etc. that are everything we want, perfect in every way, and fulfill our ever emotional attachment to all of our expectations.

Everyone will need to make adjustments in their life.

The problem with discussing Mormonism is the believer goes to the worst scenario: what if you die, we won't be together in the CK, what if, what if, what if.

Consider that there are no: what if's.

Why not respect each person's right to change their mind?

You are dealing with her emotional attachments to her expectations. You are not meeting her spoken and non-spoken emotional attachments to her expectations and she is unhappy. That is how it always works.
When our emotional attachments to our expectations do not come to fruition, who is upset, angry, unhappy? We are.

As adults, we can let go of those emotional attachments to expectations that are not fulfilled. We can adjust. We can change how we think about things.

One of the problems I have seen with some Mormon women, is that they are still little children in many ways, especially emotionally. They use childish tricks to get their way: they whine, they cry, they say: if you loved me you would....., they tattle to their parents, and on and on.

Unfortunately, many Mormon women ever, ever grow up. They are still talking in little childish voices into their senior years. They still cry at the drop of a hat when they don't get their way.

I have no clue what to do about that! :-) But unfortunately, too many men fall for the foot stomping, crying, tattling manipulation and capitulate.

My view? Don't do it.Don't fall for it.
Validate their feelings (I can understand you feel ...such and such...) Then you may be able to get to talking about a negotiation without recriminations and negative attitudes. Ya, you don't have to go to church, she says, but she gives you that "look" that is total disapproval and you don't get the intimacy you expected. It can go on and on like that.

When one spouse leaves the "tribe" the other one is left wondering what happened. Their whole life is in the "tribe." They don't have any reference to what to do if someone changes their mind. It's totally foreign. Then they ask: What did they do wrong? Why aren't things the way they used to be.
They go into the list of: woulda, shoulda, coulda's which are total fantasy.

The best way to deal with these major changes, in my view, is when the parties can be civil, calm, and respectful.

Thanks. Her emotional appeals hurt but they haven't been effective in swaying me back to church. I make sure she knows that I respect her feelings, she's allowed to react in whatever way she wants. She's allowed to do what she wants. And I expect her to have the same attitude towards me. There were plenty of times last night when I told her that I can understand her perspective, I can see why she sees things the way she does. But I also made it clear that I didn't agree.

I know that I've pulled to rug out form under her plans. And it's hard for her. It's not easy for me either. I just hope things get easier eventually for both of us.

I will print that response out for my next church "conversation" with my tbm wife. Dealing with the emotional part of a spouse regarding the church is hell. She really thinks her eternity is screwed up because of me.

Tell her the flying spaghetti monster revealed to you that no church on earth is the correct one and that they are all an abomination.

Then remind her that she convenanted to obey you as you obey the lord. Since you now know the FSM is the lord, and his noodly advice was to leave kolobianism in the dust, she is breaking her convenant.

Obviously, I'm kidding. Sort of..

Nothing like the person you love the most stabbing you through the heart with words.

You broke her plan and she definitely retaliated. She's hurt, you're hurt.

Whatever happens, I hope for the best for you. Whatever it is that will make you the happiest.

If she gets over it and you stay together and be happy - good.

If you have to split, I hope you'll be able to be happy as well.

It is just a terrible situation that she'd rather defend her church than listen to what you think and how you feel.

Has not learned the meaning of love.
Sad for her that reality and truth do not fit into her plans.
She is missing so much.

You both deserve to be happy. If she truley loves you she shouldn't expect you to belong to a church you no longer believe in. She should want you to be happy, as you want her to be happy.

Yes it'll take work and compromise, as all marriages do, but if you're looking out for each other maybe it could work. But it's hard with mormons because there is so much expectation there, and if she cannot give some of that up it won't work.

Would she rather have you attend and pretend? Why would this be better?

No, she has explicitly said she doesn't want me to pretend. She saw how much that ate me up inside for so long. She really does love me and wants me to be happy. I think her struggle is that she wants me to be happy and wants me to be a faithful member of the church and she sees that those two conditions can't coexist.

She sounds articulate and thoughtful - to the degree that she can be right now, at least.

One of the problems with Mormonism, and probably religion in general, is that people (like your wife) use it as a replacement for real relationships and intimacy. If you no longer have religion in common, then she can't rely on that crutch anymore. She has to be real with you. That's scary when all you've ever known is to embrace religion in place of all other relationships.

Seems like she sees you as an "accessory" or an extension of herself. Your leaving the church reflects badly on her. Her comment about the mission really struck me as odd. It's as if she's unable to see that your marriage is not all about her..... ?

Just some thoughts.

of cult programming.

She is convinced that she is going to lose you in the eternities, and she is mourning that, even though the loss has not occurred yet. In other words, her erroneous beliefs are causing her pain.

I think the best you can do is try to comfort her, and assure her that you are there for her in THIS life. I wonder if there would be some way to draw attention to the fact that you are a good person . . . and why would God want to separate you forever? Or maybe there is somebody at your ward who is active, but who is a hypocrite, or a jerk to his wife. Would God allow THEM to be together? You'd have to treat VERY carefully here. But it might get her thinking.

One thing my husband used to say to me is that the ONLY just way to judge a person is by their actions and what kind of person they actually are, NOT by what religion they are or what they profess to believe. There are countless good people out there who aren't Mormon. It makes NO sense that Mormonism could be the yardstick to judge a person's worthiness.

I want so bad to point out to her that the pain she's feeling is from the church and what she's been taught and not from me. But at the same time, I need to respect her feelings. I'm a pretty patient person, but it's wearing thin right now.

I'm sorry, I know it's hard too.

I just wanted to commend you for sticking with what you know is true. Because of you, your kids will know that they can choose for themselves what they believe. You're not going to just put your kids in the same situation you're in for the sake of tradition. You're thinking for yourself. Even though it's hard, you're doing the right thing.

Good luck!

I'm sorry that you are both going through the pain. Surely, however her religion teaches that she shouldn't give up on you, so she should be patient and set an example to you.

I'm sure you hope she will follow the path you are taking and she in turn hopes you will return to the fold.

It's not about who wins, its about being happy, and you can't be happy when you are forced to live a certain way.

Agree to disagree at the moment but try to put each other first in being nice to each other.

God expects us to make decisions and use the brain he has given us.

There are lots of nice wonderful people in the world who have never heard of mormonism, who do wonderful, sometimes extraordinary, things for others. In my opinion God does not and will not turn his back on them.

I'm not a counsellor so I don't have the right to tell you what to do, but I am someone who was dumbstruck when my other half said 'I'm not going to church again because...' .

It hurts, but I followed shortly afterwards when my head cleared and I was ready to look at the info.

Decisions are not always easy and it does take courage. Stick with what you know it could work for the better in time.

Please keep us posted on events as I know that the exmo's on this site care when someone is struggling.

All the best to you and your wife.

onlyme Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Things have calmed down some at home after the
> initial shock my wife went through when I told her
> I didn't want to go to church anymore. Things
> definitely picked up last night. She pretty much
> let it all out.
>
> -She sometimes thinks that if something were to
> happen to her, the kids would be better off going
> with her friends or family than with me because I
> wouldn't give them the church stuff they need at
> home.
>

My 2 cents here...

With the above mentioned item regarding YOUR kids....That comment is a total slap in your face and very disrespectful...Just because you don't go to (her) church anymore...THEIR STILL YOUR KIDS!!.

For her to "feel" that way needs to be corrected pronto..

If she said this to you..she's said it to others at church/her family also...

My 2 cents....

In her defense, she said that she hates that she has those thoughts, so she knows how hurtful they are. And when she said it, I let her know how insulting it was to me.

onlyme Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In her defense, she said that she hates that she
> has those thoughts, so she knows how hurtful they
> are. And when she said it, I let her know how
> insulting it was to me.


Good she should know that:

1) it IS insulting and hurtful.
2) That you let her know right away exactly how you feel when she said that..

I have no advice, nor experience to relate re: telling a TBM spouse that I no longer believe. I know many others have urged caution and taking it slow which is good advice.

BUT when issues about the kids come up...your kids are also YOURS to raise/help raise so when they get brought into the issue/argument of your non belief, (which the kids should NOT be in that argument), you need to be upfront, honest, and blunt..

Good luck..

let it all sink in and stew for awhile, reassure your love for her, and then ask her if she would let you explain some of the things that have bothered you. Maybe she'll listen. Negotiate with her.

How many of the people on this forum have had their lives turn out as they had planned?

"Life is what happens while we are making plans."

There is not ONE THING in my life that has turned out the way I PLANNED. She needs to get used to it sooner than later.

I needed to hear that! I'm stealing your "quote" :)

Boy, that's sure true of my life.

I hate to hear that. There's so much more to a marriage than that. Of course I had to learn the hard way..but better than not learning.

Just show her you love her very much...it just might help.

stormy

Let her grieve. But after a bit of time, do not let her tell you that YOU are ruining her life.No way would I let that go on. YOU have rights, you know? But one red flag....she said there are plenty of good people out there but she doesn't want to be married to any of them. WOW. I would delve into that after a couple weeks. Let her know you will always be a good person and she can accept that or allow her Church to brand you as something else (you know they will). If after 6 months she is moping around, I would seriously consider what life might be like with a person who comforts and supports their spouse instead of her current attitude of spending time being critical.

My only advice is to acknowledge her pain and express sympathy. Something like, "yes, I realized how this is very painful and confusing for you. I'm not trying to hurt you at all but I know how it must be; it's very painful for me too."

It's not your job to convert her to your way of thinking but trying to salvage as much as possible out of the situation is my advice.

cheers,

Baura

My DH had many of the same reactions as your DW when I first told him I no longer believed. He was devastated and scared. It was a really rocky time in our marriage for a good solid 2 years. We went to a non-LDS marriage counselor for a year and it helped tremendously in getting through that transition.

Be firm but understand where she is coming from. Help her to understand that you are the same good person and why that should be enough. Reassure her that you love her.

My TBM DH came around with time (and counseling). He is inactive NOM now and we are so much happier not being shackled to the church. Our marriage is our own.

Good luck. Lots of us have been where you are now.

I am so sorry, please KNOW you are now alone, not that that really makes anything easier.

At least she did not say, " I can no longer love you". I think there is hope, at least from what you write. All the best to you.

It is a bit painful to hear about history repeating itself... my ex-wife went through your experience for a few years and it was never pretty. Wish you the best, but my advise? Plan for the worst. If you see any signs of a collective effort (her and anyone else), be very worried and get to work to protect yourself.

I don't know how long it's been since you first "outed" yourself to your DW, but for me the rest of the journey took about 4 years for my DW to come around to the same point of view. In the meantime I'd take such accusations by my DW as you described where she said you were being wishy washy and to just rip the band aid off ... as a chance to move another step out, although if you take her literally and did rip the "whole" band aid off at once she probably wouldn't take it well, but in bits and pieces it can be helpful.

For example: I was taking it slow, still going to church for DW, but not too happy about it and she was stewing about how things weren't going according to her or the church's plan. For me, one of my issues was the temple and we were living in Illinois at the time where there are a lot of Masons and you can even get "Master Mason" license plates for your car. I'd end up following a car home with such a plate or a compass and square badge on the trunk and start fuming and find some excuse to remove the garments until the next day or so (maybe exercise, shower and then not put them back on right away). In one of our "heated discussions" that occurred occasionally DW brought this up amongst other things as an example of me being a hypocrite ... SO, since she brought it up, the next day I went and bought normal underwear and stopped being a hypocrite.

She brought it up. She said I was being a hypocrite. So I solved that particular problem, just not in the way she might have expected. (But I purposefully didn't move on other issues until more time had passed ... just taking one thing at a time)

(edit to add) I guess you could say doing what I did was find an opportunity in DWs complaint to re-framed the issue. It went from a question of wearing garments to being a hypocrite so that by buying normal underwear and not wearing garments anymore I actually was acceding to her criticism. The twist was, I chose to give in and solve her criticism about me being a hypocrite and sidestepped directly addressing the garment issue. In trying to persuade me DW had framed the issue such that it became about hypocrisy with the wearing or not wearing garments becoming a symptom of that issue rather than the issue itself so that I was able to "give in" to her criticism and let her "win" because I would stop being a hypocrite while at the same time I totally stopped wearing garments ... (your mileage may vary)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2011 10:50AM by Scott.T.