DH and I discussed options about said niece for hours and hours: adoption of her, adoption of her and the baby, adopting the baby, or none of those.
Time commitment, housing, schooling, cost. We talked to our kids who were all okay with her becoming part of our family.

So I called the girls dad (my brother) to offer help during this bump in their life. He let me talk for about 3 minutes until he told me that I was filled with evil and was trying to lead her away from the church. He claims he would never, ever let her come to live in a house that is amoral and are not members. Blah, blah, blah....

Long story short: I need to mind my own business, and never contact him again unless I have repented and rejoined the church.
Like that will ever happen.

So we tried. Maybe he will change his mind, maybe not.

Who among us will be surprised?

Thank you for your offer. I suppose the baby will be sent out of state to a Mormon family there. I knew one who went to DC when the Mom decided she could not keep it.She was older unmarried and I am sure was convinced by the evil church that to be put back in good graces she needed to do this. It was sad. Your brothers sounds like a person I would not want contact with. You tried, he was hateful and now I would not contact him again.

Well, under law, short of a court order, your brother has complete say about her life until she turns eighteen.

Bummer, but that's how it is. Do what he says for now.

FOLLOW-UP: After some research in response to the reply to this posting my statement may not apply to unwed mothers and your brother may not have the last say in spite of what he may think. I have posted more below.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2016 07:02PM by Templar.

Pediatrician comment. Interesting post about the law. Where I live once a child delivers they become emancipated adults with all rights accordingly. Your brother here would have no legal right to either decide for, interfere or act for either his daughter or granddaughter if the daughter chooses to "cut him(them)off". Do you sense there is smoldering disagreement between him and wife as to how to proceed with daughter of course caught in middle. He is likely driving daughter, wife or both crazy and next step is away. Seen so many,many times.
Gatorman

gatorman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Where I live once a child delivers they
> become emancipated adults with all rights
> accordingly. Your brother here would have no legal
> right to either decide for, interfere or act for
> either his daughter or granddaughter if the
> daughter chooses to "cut him(them)off".

But what happens if the niece's father demands an abortion BEFORE she can deliver? (I'm assuming in this case that the birth father is not asserting his parental rights.)

FOLLOW-UP: My wife said that she doesn't think that parents can require their daughter to have an abortion if she doesn't want one. If true, and my wife is usually correct, my question is moot.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2016 07:32PM by Templar.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2016 06:57PM by Templar.

Where I live concerning abortion:
Grandparents cannot compel pregnant child to have abortion nor can parents of unwed father. Ironically a parental consent for abortion is not needed either.

In the case of disagreement between two biological parents the pregnant teen can have abortion without birth father agreement or knowledge.

The law at times seems contradictory but has been written and amended thru situational ethics that have arisen.

Recent amendments protect birth father's parental rights to keep child but that is counterbalanced by birth mother's abortion option.

All of this underscores the terrible consequences for parents,families and ultimately the child. The response of the maternal father ( soon to be grandparent) is extremely counterproductive but all to predictable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2016 08:29PM by gatorman.

Last paragraph on link. Other sites confirmed that once a minor becomes a mother, no one can force a decision on her, and one site stated that coercing a minor to abort or adopt her child out is child abuse.

I would assume that somewhat convoluted approach is meant to prevent abuse of power by parents.

I would try to find a way to let her know that her parents are prohibited from forcing her into "their" decision. Her dad sounds like he knows it, but wouldn't want her to find out (fearful of you).

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/456472_5

Well, if it's any consolation - you dodged a bullet.

In response to:
<<he told me that I was filled with evil and was trying to lead her away from the church. He claims he would never, ever let her come to live in a house that is amoral and are not members.>>

I would have politely said:

"That is interesting considering how growing up in YOUR family did so much for YOUR daughter.... Grandpa!"

Then I would have hung up the phone.

"...he told me that I was filled with evil and was trying to lead her away from the church. He claims he would never, ever let her come to live in a house that is amoral and are not members."

Cult much?

Contact the boy's family.

Remember, the father has the same rights as the mother of this child -- I'm presuming they are both minors.
IF the father or his family want the child, and do not want it adopted out, he can legally take the child.
Time to make sure the father's input is considered and respected.

But be aware that (if they live in Utah, or, I have read, if the mother even goes to Utah temporarily to have the baby) it seems that the father can lose his rights if he doesn't prove paternity and assert his paternal rights before the child is given up for adoption. So he needs to get DNA proof as soon as possible if he/his family want to have any input in the situation.

I read this on the internet, in a board run by BYU, so it may not be accurate, but it also said that after the baby is born, the mother (or parents, if the father has proven paternity and asserted his paternal rights), even if either or both are minors, have the legal right to make all decisions regarding the baby. A minor daughter in Utah still can be controlled by her parents (she is not emancipated by giving birth in Utah), but her parents do not have the legal right to make decisions for or about their daughter's baby, except under exceptional circumstances (like the grandparents have successfully sued for custody of the baby).

Here is a link to the primary discussion:

https://theboard.byu.edu/questions/67857/

peculiargifts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But be aware that (if they live in Utah, or, I
> have read, if the mother even goes to Utah
> temporarily to have the baby) it seems that the
> father can lose his rights if he doesn't prove
> paternity and assert his paternal rights before
> the child is given up for adoption. So he needs to
> get DNA proof as soon as possible if he/his family
> want to have any input in the situation.
>
> I read this on the internet, in a board run by
> BYU, so it may not be accurate, but it also said
> that after the baby is born, the mother (or
> parents, if the father has proven paternity and
> asserted his paternal rights), even if either or
> both are minors, have the legal right to make all
> decisions regarding the baby. A minor daughter in
> Utah still can be controlled by her parents (she
> is not emancipated by giving birth in Utah), but
> her parents do not have the legal right to make
> decisions for or about their daughter's baby,
> except under exceptional circumstances (like the
> grandparents have successfully sued for custody of
> the baby).
>
> Here is a link to the primary discussion:
>
> https://theboard.byu.edu/questions/67857/

From what I've read, it isn't so much that a father legally must assert his rights before a baby is born in Utah as it is that many agencies in Utah that deal with infants born to unwed mothers are more than willing to ignore the rights of fathers and to proceed with placing a child with adoptive parents without seeking consent of the father. There was a recent case in which a birth father eventually regained custody of his child because of this breach. Still, it pays for a father to be proactive in this situation.

I wonder how many million times this has happened through out history yet every time it does its like a grenade in a chicken coop...ive had several daughters who have managed to avoid this thank goodness...if they had become pregnant that hew baby would have been as welcomed and celebrated as any of our own...my wifes sister died leaving three little ones...it wasnt even a discussion...they were welcomed and loved like our own...and we already had a houseful...the niece is now thirty with two little ones and making a life for herself...she stopped out to visit last weekend...no different than if one of our bio kids stopped in...belonging...family..identity..someone will always have your back...thats the good stuff...doing the right thing isnt always easy...but its always right

Bottom line: you and your family are good, caring, Christian people.

Your brother has built himself a prison and won't allow anyone to escape it, even to save your niece's spirit (in the true, not lds, sense of the word).

People become widgets in that mindset.

At least someone has her best interests at heart.

I just want to say that I'm amazed at your willingness to welcome another child to your household and love them as your own. I don't know if I could do that. (I'm approaching empty nest, though).

The grandfather's reaction was appalling. The fact that he would cut you off and take the opportunity to slam you speaks volumes about his character. Not worth having a relationship with. I would direct any future communication to other members of his family.

Like everything else I am learning from this site, Utah is a god awful different place. Keeping my distance.
Gatorman

They should convert all those less-used LDS temples in to Mormon CONVENTS. All the INCONVENIENT family members (unmarried moms, gays, etc) could be sent there so as not to INFECT the wholesomeness of the family.

If your niece is close to you, a friend suggested that you should go to an organization that supports the rights of unwed mothers. AVOID THOSE THAT ONLY RECOMMEND OR PRINCIPALLY DEALS WITH ADOPTION - THEY ARE MUCH TOO ONE-SIDED TO BE OF HELP.

Or you may want to seek the advice of a lawyer well versed in parental rights. Your niece may well have the legal right to tell her dad to go f**k himself under these circumstances. Also, it is legally required that the birth father (and possibly his parents) be completely included in whatever happens. The courts have set aside previous legal adoptions when the birth father's rights were ignored.

She said that you should not give up until you know ALL the options available.

She has only been 15 years old for 5 months.
I have no way to contact her or find out who the boy is.

My TBM family are freaks. They loathe me. My mother blames everything that happens in the family on me being ex'd and being married, happy, and successful.
Even though we live 2000 miles away, everything is blamed on me. I feel sure that somehow this pregnancy is my fault!

I thank you for all the support, suggestions, and kind words.
I don't know about good Christians but we try to be good people and do the right thing. We would gladly take her in, but as I said before, she is going to be punished by her family.

Being ex'd and moving across country is the best thing that ever happened to me!

I know you don't need validation or reminding, but you are a good person in a heartbreaking position. I'm so sorry that your sweet heart and good intentions are being trashed. You, and this girl, deserve better.

pugsly Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have no way to contact her or find out who the boy is.

That pretty well seems to end it for now. Sometimes we are precluded from doing what we would like to do.

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference". Reinhold Niebuhr

Most kids are on Facebook. You could send her a PM without being FB "friends."

Your brother is a complete ungrateful asshat. I am so sorry.
He should be grateful to you. What you offered to do is no small favor. It is a huge commitment. I am not surprised because he is a TBM. If he were any other religion or non-religion however, I'd be very shocked. Don't let him get to you. He has a lot of nerve to say you don't have morals! Any normal [non-TBM] person would be thrilled to have you as a sister. And you are a great aunt!

Does your niece want the baby?
I think Templar is right. Once you find out if your niece [and or the baby's father] want the baby, there is probably a way to legally go around your brother and make sure the baby gets cared for the way that the baby's parents agree to. They are the baby's parents, not your brother. They have more clout legally. You are a wonderful aunt to help her.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2016 01:21AM by verilyverily.

I'm sorry you're sucked into this family drama, but it's likely that you can't really do anything about it. Sometimes that just sucks.

Thankyou for trying to help your niece. I would say there is little if anything you can do now. As for your brother .......well enough said. What a &^%$*!!!!

I can't help but wonder if this girl knows she has options. IF she knew, what would she choose? If she knew she could go live with her uncle and have a better life, would she choose that?

Is there anyone that's telling her she has options? Somehow I highly doubt it. She has options and rights, but at her age and in her circumstances has no way of knowing that. The question is, how to get that information to her.

If she had information it would most likely be life changing. It sounds like her father is bending backwards to keep her in the dark so he can control her and everything she does. He hasn't figured out that it doesn't work to be so controlling.

I used to give LDS 'benefit of the doubt', but things like this, multiplied by times when LDS has endorsed/excused/ratified EVIL (example my divorce), but:

LDS turns individuals to Evil, then looks the other way;

they SMILE when a 'TBM' divorces a NOM, inactive, or "non-member" on the slimmest of "reasons".

Families can Make themselves 'sacred' by living Kindness, Honesty, Mercy & Compassion, but those aren't on the LDS agenda.