I'm looking for a documented church response from the past (newspaper article, conference talk, or something similar) that is in direct contradiction to the church's essay "Book of Mormon Translation". (Preferably something where the church denies the face-in-the-hat method.)

A little background: about a year ago I told my TBM parents I'm not a believer. That was very difficult for them, but I was proud, and pleasantly surprised at how well they took it. We have had several discussions since then. The result of these discussions has always been the same- agree to disagree. Which is fine. On Sunday my mom handed me a newspaper article:

Teaching our kids about Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon translation http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865649339/?user=app

What a load of crap! I know there's a million ways to respond to this article - the first thought is to puke.

But I decided I just want to point out to my sweet mom how interesting it is that yesterday's anti-mormon material is now on LDS.org.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

I think you just need to pull up every official painting and image the church has ever used when describing the "translation" process.

Yhey all show JS pouring over the plates.

Which is simply not the case at all.

This stuff about the seer stone is absolutely not what most of us were taught back in the day in primary. I still can't see the image of that stupid piece of schist without shaking my head in disbelief.

Using a search engine (almost any would do) that crawls the web specifically for images I just entered the terms "Joseph Smith" and "Urim and Thummim." It returned a nice visual throwback to the version of this story I was raised with, the one where I and youth like me were taught that Joseph Smith was looking through the Urim and Thummim directly at the plates as if through a pair of spectacles while telling his scribe what he saw from the plates across a curtain. I recall seeing images like this in a number of places directly associated with the church growing up. At times I even recall this method of translation described in very glowing terms.

A necessary conclusion: These "prophets, seers, and revelators" were welcome to correct the error being perpetuated by their own Sunday School teachers at any time if they felt the need back then. It's strange that they seemed to wait until the internet likely could have made a debate out of the matter go with another story that, frankly, sounds a lot less flattering in how it portrays their first dear leader.

No denials in more recent history.

We have a Gospel Art Kit and used the pictures over the years for teaching in various callings.

Picture #416 shows Joseph and Oliver sitting together at a table, nothing in between them. Joseph is staring at the plates with his finger on them (to not lose his place), and Oliver is writing.

On the back of the picture is an explanation, here is part of the summary:

"As Joseph read out loud from the plates, Oliver wrote down the words."

edit: here is the gospel art kit on lds.org

https://www.lds.org/media-library/images/category/church-history-gospel-art-kit?lang=eng

It is missing the picture of Joseph and Oliver with the plates! It should have come right after the pic of helping people across the Sweetwater River. Also missing is the pic of the miracle of the seagulls.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2016 02:03PM by liesarenotuseful.

OMG! That pics is MISSING from the kit.

I feel kind of sick to my stomach. Here is 1984 in action, right in front of my very eyes.
No explanation, no retraction, no substitution...just...gone. We never taught that. We've always known that.

Now I wish I hadn't thrown out all my old pictures.

In the Oct 2015 Ensign (the "Seerstone Issue"), four familiar pictures of JS & the plates are shown on p. 55. What's funny is there's a disclaimer in their introduction:

"ILLUSTRATING THE TRANSLATION PROCESS
Over the years, artists have sought to portray the Book of Mormon translation, showing the participants in many settings and poses with different material objects. Each artistic interpretation is based upon its artist's own views, research, and imagination, sometimes aided by input and direction from others."

See? It's the artists' fault that none of them depict a rock in a hat! The church can't be blamed for the artists' crappy research and wrongheaded views! We begged them for historically accurate rock in hat paintings, and they always said no! We had to take what they gave us! Input and direction from others? Had to be someone else; we would never approve anything misleading! Nope, not the church's fault, ever.

They contradict themselves, yes?

http://www.sltrib.com/home/2815375-155/thus-saith-mormon-pr-boss-we

"Every word the LDS Church's Public Affairs Department issues on behalf of the Utah-based faith has been vetted and approved by higher Mormon authorities, the church's top spokesman said Friday.

The department does not go "rogue," managing director Michael R. Otterson reaffirmed in a speech, "On the Record," at the two-day FairMormon Conference in Provo. "News flash — we don't freelance."

I'm sure every picture was also "vetted and approved".

I sure going to keep my pic!

The link below is from dialogue I had with a Mormon on this subject years ago:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1569690,1569690#msg-1569690

The TBM, John Miles, quoted:

From Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3,
pp.225-226, we get the following account:

"While the statement has been made by some writers that the
Prophet Joseph Smith used a seer stone part of the time in his
translating of the record, and information points to the fact
that he did have in his possession such a stone, yet there is no
authentic statement in the history of the Church which states
that the use of such a stone was made in that translation. The
information is all hearsay, and personally, I do not believe that
this stone was used for this purpose."

The TBM also quoted: From Francis W. Kirkham, _A New Witness for Christ in America_, Vol.1, pp.469-70:

"The use of a seer stone by Joseph Smith buried in a hat to
exclude the light, seemed to have had its origin and emphasis in
Mormonism Unveiled, 1834."

In that thread, I went on to refute the TBM's arguments and provide the documentation for the "seer stone in the hat" version of events.

Also, here's a recent thread wherein I quote my TBM sister's denial that Joseph Smith translated the BOM by "peering into a hat":

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1646345,1646345#msg-1646345



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2016 02:04PM by randyj.

Hadn't seen that article and all I could think of was OMFG!!!

No, I was never taught that, ever. That version would have been considered extremely anti-mormon.

They lie for decades, over a century, then try and get people to believe this garbage like it's what they've been selling all along.

I am amazed that people don't call them on this.

People do call them on it and then they get gaslighted.

Joseph Smith History 1:35

...Also, that there were two stones in silver bows---and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim---deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted "seers" in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.

It says, at least, that the intent was for him to use the Urim and Thummim for translation. Not that he did, necessarily, but that someone bothered to maintain an historical artifact in functioning condition since the receding of the flood waters for that specific end.

Also, that using them is what makes you a seer...so...

[Edit: I can't mobile very good]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2016 02:09PM by atouchscreendarkly.

It also states such in the introduction of the BoM "Testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith". --“Also, that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted ‘seers’ in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book. …

I'm currently reading Rough Stone Rolling and came across the part where Joseph gave up on the "urim and thummim" basically stating that he had the translating thing down and could do it without using them. Really? WTF? Supposedly these were from "God" and all of the sudden he knows better than God? Hmmmm...makes one wonder.

All you can do is show her things from the church - and not from the church: articles on life, etc. - that are moving, enlightning, informative, interesting or opening.

She is trying to prove the church is true (through an endless line of recycled, reworded, recast fiction and propaganda and repeating its circular reasoning until it is actually believed, even enough to share) and ask you have to prove is nothing. The proof is ample and abundant that it is not.

Show her links, books, references if she'll benefit from them. About ask you can do is be yourself. Grow. Always offer her peace and light. She may slowly learn (about the falseness of the Gospel of Joseph's mith).

Good luck

Here are some of the pictures, lesson aids, and answers to questions that teachers are instructed to use in the current lesson manuals in describing and depicting the translation of the gold plates.

http://media.ldscdn.org/images/media-library/gospel-art/church-history/translating-plates-82841-print.jpg

https://www.lds.org/media-library/images/joseph-smith-translating-mormon-parson-153741?lang=eng&_r=1

https://www.lds.org/media-library/images/joseph-translating-gold-plates-329346?lang=eng&category=gospel-art/church-history

https://www.lds.org/friend/2009/10/translating-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/children/activities/puzzles/translating?lang=eng

Thanks to all for your help!! This is great stuff!

I grew up with the simplified version of the BoM for kids, Titled Book of Mormon Stories.

https://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-stories/chapter-1-how-we-got-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng