Anybody know the story behind this section?

4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.

5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.

6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—

7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.

8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.

I haven't found any background info on this and I can't understand why Joe would have written this. Did Joe use this test during the first vision, when Moroni visited, etc...? Has "the devil" figured out this trick by now? I think we need to petition "the brethren" for a clarifying conference talk on this section in October.

Man, this was one of my favorite sections in D&C. I don't know why, but I was so fascinated in trying to figure this out. Reading it now, I see just how much nonsense it really is. JS was a whackadoodle.

When I was a teen I remember reading all kinds of stories about Joseph confronting the devil. One where all the books came off the shelves and hurled themselves at him. Weird stuff like that. I was terrified of Satan coming after me.

I think this was so you would know if it was the devil if you received a heavenly hallucination

I dunno, but when I was a kid my seminary teacher spoke of this several times, obviously in awe of the information. Like it would affect all of us. It really should have been a message that would peg our bullshit meters and send us running from the class. Back then, people wanted us all to learn this stuff. You know, like in case of some wannabe angel trying to deliver us a message. Today, I suspect that they would tell us not to pay attention to this, that it's not important to our salvation, but to focus on "the plan of happiness," instead.

So, did JS shake God's hand when he appeared in the grove? how do faithful members know that it wasn't Satan in disguise with some of his goons?

What a crock.

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/sections-122-131/section-129-keys-for-determining-if-administrations-are-from-god?lang=eng

Apparently, the process of accurately determining if administrations are from God goes well beyond relying on confirmation from the Holy Ghost. So much for that still, small voice.

Interesting. It seems that Joe let the cat out of the bag when he recorded this revelation. Now Satan and his minions know how to deceive us. Since Satan can so easily deceive us, God can no longer send his messengers either...how would we know if God's messenger wasn't just a tricky devil? This explains why no "prophet" today talks about heavenly visitations.

We need a new revelation...maybe one instructing us to tackle any supposedly heavenly visitors...or have a dance-off with them...or an air guitar duel...or ask them to prove they aren't a eunuch...

LOLz

I remember my mother relating this story with an odd sort of reverence. She was a seminary teacher for years and years. She seemed to think that this showed just how much of a genius JS was, as if to say, look how smart he was, he's come up with such a simple way to determine if a spirit is good or not.

All I saw were the holes and problems with it. Why couldn't an evil spirit just do what a good spirit would do and just deliver their evil message? I mean, JS just told them what to do... It's not like it was a secret.

And, why couldn't a good spirit say, "Dude, I don't have a body, can't shake your hand" instead he's just going to hover there? Rudely ignoring my hand?

And then of coarse, how many of JS's visions include a quick note about him asking to shake the hand of whomever he's supposedly being visited by? None, that's how many... If it was important enough to be listed here, why didn't he note it in the other visions that he did it?

I thought about all that, while I was still a TBM... I think he was just trying to cover his tracks and look smart.

Of course since this method was revealed to him by a messenger from the devil it is no good and he doesn't know how to verify that it came from the devil originally. The whole thing is circular. How is that for deceit.

The church of the napkin is true because it says so on the napkin.

Lucifer is the father of lies, so one ought to be safe in the assumption that his followers also know how to lie. Therefore, why wouldn't an agent of the devil, when asked to shake hands, refuse to offer his hand, and thus be thought of as the second messenger type, the one who will not move, because it is against the order of heaven...

And....they also teach that Ol' Scratch can't read your mind, but he can hear you words.

How many times has this been "talked" about in mormondum over the centuries?

You'd think his minions would have heard something by now and figured the cat was out of the bag on the handshake trick.

But alas, I think one of the real reasons was a simple power play. JS basically taught that demons were both smart and stupid....smart enough to trick you if they can, but stupid enough to be tricked by you if you know how.

This sets him up as the power master that provides the ways and means to overpower the demons that chase us through life....which he then bestows upon his faithful followers, thus making them feel empowered, yea even unto thwarting the works of the devil!!!

Its a win win!!

Yeah, seriously. Satan's obviously and idiot.

I was just remembering in HS my seminary teacher telling us that the reason members shake hands is so they know that the messenger is not Satan or one of his emissaries.

Also, there was something about not crossing hands, but all I remember was thinking she was crazy. It must have made an impression though, because I still remember it. Maybe it was because it was proof that she was crazy.

Shinehahbeam Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I haven't found any background info on this and I
> can't understand why Joe would have written this.
> Did Joe use this test during the first vision,
> when Moroni visited, etc...? Has "the devil"
> figured out this trick by now? I think we need to
> petition "the brethren" for a clarifying
> conference talk on this section in October.

Joseph never officially wrote, published or publicly stated this during his lifetime. Likewise, it was never approved by him for publication. Both Willard Richards and William Clayton separately recorded from memory in their private journals Joseph's answer to a small group when asked how to know if a messenger was from god. Each version is somewhat different. Clayton's version (after some editing) was the one chosen to be added to the D&C in 1876 and was subsequently canonized as binding scripture during the general conference. Note that the heading clearly states that Section 129 consists of "instructions" and is not a revelation.

Many of the so-called statements of Joseph Smith were never directly made by him, but rather were later taken from private journals and reworded in the first person to make them appear as if they were, in fact, his own words. Mormon history and doctrine are literally a "can of worms" when one attempts to find the original source of just about anything Joseph Smith supposedly said or did.

The well known King Follett discourse is actually an edited amalgamation of four separately written versions of what the individual writers later had thought he said. The "three grand keys" given in D&C Section 129 is just another example.

Thanks for that interesting information.

Funny that this section of the D&C is one made from the recollections of other people, and yet one of the favorite excuses Mopologist use when trying to explain away problems with the Mormon historical record is that *someone else* wrote it down. I think they use/d that excuse a lot with the BoA's "Egyptian Alphabet & Grammar" notes, but can't use the same maneuvering when it comes to all the problems in the canonized Mormon scriptures, although much of these were written by scribes.

: )

My mom taught me this at a tender age. If you see dead people in the temple, or the spirits of dead relatives anywhere, they won't shake your hand. Evil spirits will want to shake your hand, but won't be able.

I don't know why Joe wrote this stuff, but I wish he wouldn't have. It shouldn't be taught to children with vivid imaginations.

whinny Wrote:
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> I don't know why Joe wrote this stuff

He didn't as I have stated above. Poor Joe is often misquoted by well intended TBMs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2016 01:08PM by Templar.

Though it is interesting to learn that Joe didn't really have all the revelations in the D&C, I can't feel much sympathy for "poor" Joe. Joseph Smith is responsible for Mormonism. This is Mormon doctrine. It is entirely fair to hold Mormonism responsible for it's own doctrine.

I don't know why Mormons teach such silly garbage; I wish I hadn't been taught it. Better?

Yes, it is clearly Mormon Doctrine. I never stated or implied it wasn't. After all, it's found in the canonized Doctrine and Covenants.

The OP asked for the story behind that particular doctrine. I responded to the request and pointed out that there is no solid evidence that Smith ever directly said or wrote what is stated in Section 129. It's not even clear exactly when the private journal notes that were the source of the so-called instructions were written down.

I do not agree that Smith is fully "responsible for Mormonism" as it exists today. Far too many things have been added, eliminated or substantially changed which never involved Joseph Smith. A major purpose of the Joseph Smith Papers Project is to discover exactly what Joseph himself actually taught and did. While leaving much to be desired, the recently published church essays are at least a start at attempting to separate the true facts from much too often repeated "Mormon Fiction".

In a related question, why is Moroni referred to as an angel but Peter, James, and John, who also supposedly appeared to JS are never referred to as angels?

Well, for a start, John never died and was promised that he would remain on earth until Jesus returns in his glory (D&C Section 7) so at least John could not have been an angel.

This then begs the question of why the priesthood needed to be "restored" since it would never have been lost from the earth. Could not the still living John simply contact Joseph Smith and ordain him directly in front of the entire congregation? Nothing mysterious here. Living individuals like John do the same in hundreds of Mormon meetings all over the world every Sunday.

Of course, it's really folly to attempt to make a clearly illogical religion into something even remotely logical.

I have never heard of anyone in this whole wide world ever to have a casual conversation with angel or demon. The conversations have been out of body, or result of dying or something like that. Mediums claim to sense spirits but then they are communicating in proxy. I have never heard of a non-incarnate soul manifest themselves to the incarnate.

Only Joseph Smith has made that claim to have witnessed spirits while in the flesh. Oh wait, Martin Harris claimed to talk to Jesus in the form of a deer. "Can I shake your hoof?"

Seems rather telling though, JS was privy to all kinds of visitations visions and revelations. It all ceased when he died.

I watched an episode of Ghost Hunters on the SyFy channel and heard something that has become very useful.

"If in doubt, throw it out!"

Quote of the day...

Can I shake your hoof?

Once again I revert to my vast knowledge of the Russian language and say
"bullshitsky"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2016 02:06PM by desertman.

Joe went through a Masonic initiation, which teaches that handshakes are used as a secret password. If you don't know the handshake, no entry into the Masonic Lodge. Going further back, if you look at Masonic symbology (the square and compasses) they represent to tools used by stone masons and architects. Before they had written proof of qualifications when they arrived a a building site, in ancient times a journeyman stone mason would have a specific handshake, and to be allowed to begin work would be identified as being qualified by using it.

Like everything else, Joe ripped that idea off. He stole so many terms as well, it's hilarious.
"Gentile" from his Hebrew tutor
"Bishop, Deacon, Elder" from other churches, etc...

It's easy for him to warn you about an impossible event. It reminds me of his year without rainbows prophecy.

Here is a discussion from 2004:

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon372.htm

Here is my favorite part:

Peter, James, and John; long before they were ever born (i.e. they were spirits, and didn't have physical hands) appear to Adam and tell him they are messengers of God...

...and then shake hands with him.

I guess JS forgot about Section 129 when he wrote that scene.

... of his adoring followers.

I think he was like: "WTF, I'll just spout off as much silly gibberish as I can--literally anything that comes to my mind--and we'll just see how much of it my clueless sycophants will lap up."

And I think we have the answer.

Well, the angels of God have to be able to receive the tokens of the holy priesthood so it makes sense that the angels of Satan cant.

This was just a warning to be wary of ugly hands sticking through the giant curtain at the temple. lol