I am a little peeved at this.
My daughter's high school chamber choir goes on a wonderful, week-long tour every year.
Last year they went to San Francisco.
This year they're going to...Salta Laika Citeeeee.
They will be spending some time with the MoTab and will be on the BYU campus at least one day. (The momos in the group are ecstatic.)
Here's my irritation: The momo pianist sat everyone down and told them all about the BYU "standards", specifically talking to the kids (read: girls) about the dress code. They have been told that they MUST follow the dress code while they are on campus. She likened it to going to a wedding in jeans and a t-shirt. She talked about respecting others, etc.

I cannot believe that they would impose themselves on these kids like that. My daughter isn't signing any honor code agreement. She's not going to that school. She doesn't care about their modesty nonsense.

I don't know how to articulate my anger at this, but I guess it's because we left that church behind and yet here it still is.

Plus also that "honor code" and the rape thing. I feel like respecting their stupid code is kind of like giving tacit approval of it. Which I don't. And my daughter and I both think it's crap because of the rape thing going on. Grrrrrr.

Will they be handing out Burqah's to the girls as they exit the bus onto campus?

That's the first thing I said when she told me--"Yeah, and I'll don a burka the second I step off the plane into Iran, too." /s

Is this a public high school, taking a school sponsored trip to see a religious organization's choir?

I totally understand your concerns about having to obey the BYU honor code. Though I think I could chalk it up like if I were visiting a catholic cathedral in Europe to see the art and if they required me to cover my head... Their space, their rules... It sucks... Especially with the controversy over rape cover ups going on right now...

All that being said, I think I'm a bit more concerned about separation of church and state. Are there any guarantees that when visiting the MoTab choir and BYU that no one will preach or have missionaries follow the student group around? I'd be willing to bet that they'll hand-wave any such concerns as they are visiting a piece of american history, but that's not always a good argument. There have been plenty of cases where even having a local church choir visiting a school being an issue if they sing religious songs. By visiting MoTab, presumably on temple square it's a suggestion of imposing/promoting a specific religion on the students, in a school sponsored event. that's problematic.

Also, I can understand High School students visiting a University, but a religious university? That also seems to be problematic...

This sounds like a potential legal issue if anyone wanted to challenge it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2016 02:14PM by Finally Free!.

at least a hijab...

they should also explain the women must be veiled when married/sealed in the Temple; best bring one with, ya never know who you're gonna meet there...

I would wear what I wanted as well. Your daughter didn't sign anything to do with the honor code.

I would explain why your daughter won't be following the honor code while there. Your standards are higher. That always gets their blood boiling.

But seriously your standards are higher because you hold abusers responsible for their own actions and not the clothes that the victim wears.

The pianist was out of line only because it wasn't their place, unless of course the assignment of dress code was given to the pianist.

There are dress codes everywhere, I cannot wear shorts to work. I wear an oxford shirt when I visit with vendors and customers. I don't wear a codpiece when I visit a Mormon chapel. I see nothing wrong with dressing respectfully. But......

Respect is to be earned not demanded. And in this case if BYU asked (I doubt it) it was in poor form. If the choir director requested this on their own (I hope) than bravo.

I don't know what's more shocking.... That you visit a Mormon chapel, or that you DON'T wear a cod piece while doing so.

Just to look at the other side of the coin, what kind of restrictions would be imposed on the students if they were to visit Notre Dame University?

I assume they would be required to dress appropriately if their tour was into the chapel or other religious places, but dressed like they felt comfortable on the campus, cafeteria, auditoriums.

Well, I just googled dress code for Notre Dame University and only found information about employees of the university. I did read in school fashion blogs that there is a lot of J. Crew worn there but also sweat pants and shorts and whatever.

At night, bare shoulders are very evident. As far as school apparel for sale: there are racer back tee shirts and strapless sundresses, mini skirts, short shorts along with the sweats etc.

It seems pretty clear that the bare shoulder and bare knee police are relegated to BYU.

In attending musical events at many universities, it seems that for female musicians at a certain level, formal or semi-formal short or long dresses with or without bare shoulders is done. While playing some instruments, wearing pants is more common.

If the musical group has a set "uniform" for performances, for example, all black dresses or pants or whatever, that settles the question.

If, when traveling anywhere, students are expected to dress in school shirts or shirts and ties, that is one thing. If women are expected to wear the lds version of burqas, that is another.

Were students given written guidelines along with a rationale prior to the parent signing permission slips? If not, this is one person's opinion, not a requirement.

Years ago BYU hosted a meeting of high school Latin students. I took my classes and there was no religion involved. Therefore there was no violation of church and state. I dont remember being told how to dress and we certainly didnt have to sign an honor code. However, I think it was perfectly acceptable to expect underage kids to refrain from smoking drinking,sex etc on a school field trip. I told them to cover shoulders and not to wear mini skirts. Not a problem since it pretty much was the same as the school dreess code of the day and most of the girls wore pants by choice anyway. I personally think you should chill out and respect BYU's rules. When I was in Europe,I obeyed the dress code when visiting cathedrals even though I didnt agree with it. Their house, their rules. If you object that much to BYU, keep her home. One of my students opted out and I think that is reasoonable. Considering the rape issue there and other recent issues, I probably wouldnt take my classes today, but if I did,I would dress according to their rules.

...except the BYU dress code is for their students and employees and not visitors. I could see having a dress code to enter a church or a chapel. But a college campus? Not so much. I had no clue about the BYU dress code when I visited the campus. I just wore ordinary street clothes.

To give an equivalent example, you can tour the U.S. Naval Academy, Air Force Academy, and West Point without adhering to the dress code that the students themselves follow. You can even visit their chapels without any particular restriction.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2016 05:08PM by summer.

The dress code isnt that restrictive and is actually fairly similar to some school dress codes. I dont like it,but there are more pressing reasons not to go to BYU.All the girl has to do is wear sleeves and wear capris long shorts, or long pants or skirt. Considering it is rainy and in the 60s most days, she probably would dress according to code anyway. I dont think I would take my students to BYU these days due to the church policies of Nov and the rape issue, but the dress code is small potatoes IMO

And why should she have to wear sleeves when on a school campus?

There is NOTHING inappropriate about the female arm.

If BYU's students want to adhere to the school's religious ideas, it is their choice.

This is a public high school trip. If restrictions are in place that are different than those in place for other trips, they are out of line.

Ha ha ha ha...perfect Cheryl.

BYUs dress code requires shoulders and knees to be covered. It isnt as if she has to buy a new outfit to go there or wear a burka. Geesh. Considering it is still cool outside , shorts and tanks wouldnt likely work anyway.She can find something to wear without much trouble. How about pants and a tee shirt? The dress code isnt that restrictive.If you dont want her to go because you dislike BYU or church policies, that is another issue. Tell the teacher she wont be going and why and request another assignment, but the dress code or separation of church and state isnt going to get you very far.

What Cheryl said!

The honor code was a joke when I attended BYU. In fact we used to see how far we could violate it. I got into the testing center more than once in shorts. No boys and girls in the bedroom areas. Dream on. I credit BYU educating me on the church in reality isn't what they want you to believe it is and many members simply dress up for church, put on the Sunday show and live a different life the rest of the week. Just like everyone else. Many students don't want to be there but mom and dad force them or even bribe them to go. I had a friend who's father in California bought him a new BMW for a college car if he went to BYU. It's a country club with a snobby attitude and snobby rules but The Marriott School of Management can land you a job at Goldman Sachs and I have yet to hear the church talk about that firm's unethical practices and how much it has cost the US taxpayer. No the church wants to rub shoulders with the movers and shakers of this nation and remember ol' Joe said we believe in being subjects to kings, queens, and magistrates. It ain't We The People in the church. It's yes sir! Mormons take orders well and they work hard. Brigham picked the perfect symbol. A hive. The university that bears his name trains em well or at least they would like to think so. BYU had a colorful underground. I'm sure it's still there.

Rubicon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BYU had a colorful underground.
> I'm sure it's still there.

I don't doubt that, but the trick is finding it....

Were they also informed how to carry their purses? I seem to recall complaints from BYU males of females wearing their purse so the strap went over one shoulder and then between their breasts, making them more prominent, and it was distracting to the males.

OMG! Mormon males see sex in everything.

So even you're just visiting the stupid Honor Code applies!?? What if you have a beard?? You have to shave it off!????

Usually these band trips are voluntary. She could always just skip it.

Why should she be punished by being forced to skip it?

This trip should have been thoroughly vetted.

For public school students, the thought of having to wear sleeves because of someone else's religious rules is wrong.

Your daughter should ask the pianist if the BYU Honor she will have to observe requires that she promise not to notify police if she is raped while on campus.

We went to the Vatican museum last year and my wife made sure our kids followed the dress code, mostly so we wouldn't look like typical American slobs.

I guess we looked like Canadians. :-)

Mormons DO wear jeans and tee shirts to weddings! I've seen so many!

The only wedding where I've seen anyone wear jeans, t-shirts, and flip flops is a Mormon wedding. Those guests were also Mormon. Never seen that anywhere else.

Pooped Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The only wedding where I've seen anyone wear
> jeans, t-shirts, and flip flops is a Mormon
> wedding. Those guests were also Mormon. Never seen
> that anywhere else.

I've seen it here at non-Mormon weddings, several times, especially where the wedding is outdoors.