For the record, though I just learned about this guy today, he is now one of my heroes.

http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/150734

Here are my favorite paragraphs.

"Forging holy books in an effort to save souls "is in one sense a noble cause, because it's not for self-aggrandizement, it's not for advancement, and it's not for money. It's because these people had something they thought was worth hearing. It's just sad that they had to lie about it. And some of these forgeries are really dangerous, which is a good reason to point out that they're probably forged. Their ramifications are devastating."

For example, the First Epistle to Timothy — attributed to Paul, although Ehrman insists it's forged — forbids females from becoming pastors or even speaking aloud in church.

"Because of what happened in the Garden of Eden, First Timothy says women are easily deceived, so they should stay silent and submissive and pregnant." (hands up all you ex-Mormons who thought that only the Mormon church didn't/doesn't allow women to be ministers.)

This dictate is still followed today by conservative evangelical congregations who believe that Paul wrote it, "when in fact it was a forger writing under Paul's name twenty or thirty years later — someone who was tired of hearing women speak up in church."

When Ehrman attended Moody Bible Institute, female students weren't permitted to take classes in preaching. Those classes were male-only, thanks to First Timothy.

Ehrman's no longer a born-again. He's now an agnostic."

And at the end of the article, Mr. Ehrman has this to say about Mormonism:

"If both the Old and New Testaments are full of fibs and forgeries, then what of other so-called holy books?

"People always ask me that question about the Koran," Ehrman says. "Out of concern for my personal safety, I don't say a thing."

However, he doesn't hesitate to say: "The Book of Mormon is completely made up."

By whom?

"Joseph Smith, I assume. Whether he was completely self-deceived or crazy or just a lying bastard, I don't know. It's one of those three, probably."

Maybe someday he'll take that up with Glenn Beck."

Most scholars think that First Timothy and several other epistles are forged. There are several reasons for this. 1. Writing style and voabulary. 2. Contradictions with the authentic ones. Paul had female deacons so it isn't logical that he would then say women couldn't speak in church. Ehrman didn't come up with this idea.One caution. When Ehrman writes for the general public as opposed to writing for sholarly journals, he can tend to exaggerate a bit. For instance, some scholars believe it was common for disciples to put their teacher's names on their works and that this was not considered forgery. Instead it was considered a compliment to the teacher, In other words, all scholars do not accept every thing Ehrman says. I do like his books though

I like his books too. It is interesting that he does still believe in the historical Jesus.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdqJyk-dtLs

madiran Wrote:
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> I like his books too. It is interesting that he
> does still believe in the historical Jesus.
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdqJyk-dtLs

Most scholars do believe in the historical Jesus. Ehrman is hardly alone there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2011 12:38AM by bona dea.

madiran Wrote:
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> n/t


LOL. That is true with a few posters, but probably not everyone,

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
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> n/t
I have, many times. Bart Erhman, Michael WHite, Paul Johnson Bruce Chilton, John Dominc Crossan, Michael Grant. Amy Jill Levine, Paula Frederickson, Elaine Pagals. Albert Schweitzer. Einstein. Except for Einstein, they are all in related fields and at least two of them are atheist/agnostic and one is Jewish. There are plenty more, but this is a start.

Nice dishonest try though.

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
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> Nice dishonest try though.
Oh really? I named 10 scholars I have actually read. That is 10 more than you have named. I'll be happy to name more after I have your list. Please don't call me a liar.

Yes, I've read a couple of his books. They are very good reads for someone on their way out of Mormonism. The last one I read was "Jesus:Apocalyptic prophet of the new Millenium," where he lays out his case that Jesus was just one of a long line of sandwich-board prophets shouting that the last days are here.

I tend to think that Jesus existed, else, who started Christianity, aside from Paul?

He's a thorough scholar yet an easy read. My personal favorite is "Lost Christianities".

Just for the record, I, too, believe in an historical Jesus. Unfortunately, we know almost nothing factual about him because the New Testament is mostly myths, legends or, as Ehrman would say, forgeries.

But you wouldn't know it from the lies of a few posters here.

Ehrman states nearly all the Bible scholars he knows believe Jesus was a historical person.

He was interviewed by phone on The Infidel Guy Show about the Jesus Myth and he stated clearly he believes there is a historical Jesus as do nearly all the scholars in his field. You can listen to the interview (2 parts).

Bona isn't lying and she didn't originate the statement that scholars in the field believe Jesus was a historical person.

http://thoughtfulfaith.wordpress.com/2010/03/26/bart-ehrman-meets-the-jesus-myth-guy/

robertb Wrote:
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> Ehrman states nearly all the Bible scholars he
> knows believe Jesus was a historical person.
>
> He was interviewed by phone on The Infidel Guy
> Show about the Jesus Myth and he stated clearly he
> believes there is a historical Jesus as do nearly
> all the scholars in his field. You can listen to
> the interview (2 parts).
>
> Bona isn't lying and she didn't originate the
> statement that scholars in the field believe Jesus
> was a historical person.
>
> http://thoughtfulfaith.wordpress.com/2010/03/26/ba
> rt-ehrman-meets-the-jesus-myth-guy/
Thank you. I'd like to see that list of scholars who support Dave the Uninformed. I'm not holding my breath. If I do get a list it will likely include Wells, the German language professor, Freke and Gandie, the New Age gurus, Achyra S and Earl Doherty who are keeping their credentials a secret and assorted radical athiests who have credentials in totally unrelated fields, that is if they actually have credentials.One persson touted as an expert by one poster here turned out to be MAGICIAN. Anyway, Dave, I am waiting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2011 04:20PM by bona dea.

Richard Carrier (PhD in ancient history)
Robert M Price (PhD's in systematic theology & new testament)

I find these two to be much better scholars than the likes of Acharya S, Freke & G.

Carrier is especially meticulous and he is currently working on a book regarding the historical jesus issue.

I am aware, as are they, that they represent a minority position in the field currently.

archytas Wrote:
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> Richard Carrier (PhD in ancient history)
> Robert M Price (PhD's in systematic theology & new
> testament)
>
> I find these two to be much better scholars than
> the likes of Acharya S, Freke & G.
>
> Carrier is especially meticulous and he is
> currently working on a book regarding the
> historical jesus issue.
>
> I am aware, as are they, that they represent a
> minority position in the field currently.
Agreed, but Dave claimed a majority. I know there are a few. BTW, I may be remembering wrong or have him mixed up with someone else, but I thought Price was a Fundamentalist turned atheist whose degree, if you can call it that, is from an unaccredited Bible school. If so, I don't think I'd put him in the same category as scholars from Cambridge, Oxford or American Ivy league schools

Price got his PhD's from Drew University. I think he's taught at some unaccredited schools. He's not a tenured professor or anything like that.

Between the two of them, I would say Carrier is the more careful when it comes to the evidence. But, Price's books did bring up some good points on the historical Jesus question for me.

archytas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Price got his PhD's from Drew University. I think
> he's taught at some unaccredited schools. He's
> not a tenured professor or anything like that.
>
> Between the two of them, I would say Carrier is
> the more careful when it comes to the evidence.
> But, Price's books did bring up some good points
> on the historical Jesus question for me.

I probably have him mixed up with someone else. I guess I could look up Drew University and learn more about the school. Maybe I will later. At any rate, I do know there are a few scholars who believe Jesus was not historical, but they are a definite minority whether Dave the Uninformed and a few others think so or not.

It may not be accredited, I'm actually not sure on that.

I am a few chapters into The Historical Figure of Jesus by E.P. Sanders, who is widely recognized as a first-tier scholar. He is thorough and readable at the same time.

I have to wonder as I read the real Biblical scholars on the issue if my effort isn't part of my "undoing" of my reading Jesus the Christ by Mormon James Talmage :-). Anyway, I find it enjoyable to read someone who writes carefully, clearly, and in depth.

I also learned something to my embarrassment--that the Jesus Seminar I liked so much is not well thought of and for good reasons. It's another part of learning I really value, too--having my misconceptions corrected--but it is a bit uncomfortable and embarrassing at times.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2011 05:06PM by robertb.

Please, Dave, make a list of those scholars.

bona dea Wrote:
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> Please, Dave, make a list of those scholars.


That's a big ask, bona dea, as Dave rarely posts more than 20 words per post. Dave is more a hit and run merchant.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2011 04:48PM by matt.

matt Wrote:
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> bona dea Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Please, Dave, make a list of those scholars.
>
>
> That's a big ask, bona dea, as Dave rarely posts
> more than 20 words per post. Dave is more a hit
> and run merchant.
And rude to boot. I'll be extremely surprised if Dave posts anyone, let alone a list. That would be way too much work. I'm certainly not holding my breath