A minority of LDS men enjoy the trappings of "power and prestige" a higher calling provides.
The wife feels a higher status.
He actually feels like he is chosen somehow and so his words mean more than those of other men.
People even ask his opinion.
But the majority of lds men...the deacon's quorum advisors, elder's quorum presidents, sunday school teachers, etc. etc. aren't the type that are wishing/hoping for a leadership calling or aren't the type that would ever get one.
They work 40-50 hours per week.
They pay 10% plus of their income
They put in 5-10 hours at church callings each week
They feel like they have to try and live up to the Malaluca salesman down the street.
They have a wife that is disappointed in a quiet way and may leave him or at least withhold a bit of connubial bliss if he shows any signs of doubt or "slackerage".
He is seen as not wise enough and not good enough to lead and thus his children have a bit of a sense that they may not be good enough either.
There is little reward for that man given his natural inclinations.
In the old days the powerful man in the church got the respect and the women.
I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but yes, I was miserable - the entire time...as a child, an adolescent, an adult.
I now look back and wonder why I tolerated all of the BS that I did. I'm sure it started out as an effort to please people - pretty much the same reason that every 8 year old Mormon makes the "choice" to be baptized. But later on I became firm in the belief that all of that misery would serve some higher purpose - that there would be some grand eternal reward for all of it. We often have to make short-term sacrifices to meet long-term goals and I think that's how I regarded my own misery as a TBM.
Anyhow, since leaving and talking to other ex-mo's, I have been continually amazed how common it is to think and feel the things that I did. I am sure that most Mormon men (and women too - but for different reasons) are totally miserable. But they can not or will not admit that.
Obviously I'm not a man, but from the men in my life:
Father: Depressed on and off before, during and after his tenure as BP.
Brother: Refused to go to church quite often and left at age 18.
Ex husband: Forcefully baptized by his father, refused to go church, didn't like callings, didn't like the authority exerted over him. Sounds miserable to me.
being a 'successful' MoGuy usually means being Super-Competitive;
working in a professional capacity, (doc-dentist, atty, accounting, sales exec, etc) and headed UP the mo ladder!
those are they guys that Play the Game, know the right people (or at least drop names), get their calls returned.
those are the guys whose wives are 'living' vicarious lives thru their Peter Priesthood / Walking Wallet husbands.
Many of them get boob jobs to show how important they are/their status in Morland (expense speaks loudly!), and as soon as dear daughter hits 16, she also wants bigger breasts...
Interesting post. My personal experiences were very different. I'm very social so I made many friends in my Mormon experiences. I quickly realized that if I were friends with high calling Mormons I was on some list of potential people for high callings.
In my belief time this repelled me. If this power structure wasn't built on inspiration or at least I could see something inspiring about it I didn't want to be plugged into it. My highest calling was a counselor in a few EQs. Each time I remember talking to my wife explaining how I thought I got picked. It was distasteful to me and she couldn't help but agree. After all it is supposed to be inspired. And she knew I wasn't an inspired choice.
And she had turned down many callings.
She never wrapped herself up in the social hierarchal aspects and aspirations of Mormons. I think for her and me Mormonism is and has been a belief structure and not a temporal opportunity. But as time continues, it is obvious Mormonism is not a belief structure but a scam with a weak belief structure with more spiritual power in American Christian fairytales than rituals and practices but these are required to maintain the fairytales.
Mythology and emotionally controlling religious practices taught to my wife by loving parents is a hard testimony to crack.
So I left and she stayed. But the MLM, male-dominated social networking power structures, inept volunteer forces mustered and complete lack of inspiring people and experiences has left her a little jaded but still believing.
I think you are spot on. Mormonism is an alpha male cult that panders to the ego's of weak minded men. One of the saddest things you will ever see is a older man who is stuck in the elders quorum every Sunday because he is not good enough, smart enough, rich enough, liked enough to be with other men his own age.
I agree, it's not an alpha male thing, since those who climb the leadership ladder really aren't alphas outside of TSCC. Even in, they're not really alpha males, they just happen to have family connections because their ancestor was one of Joe's buddies from the beginning.
I think the suckups are filling up the gaps in pedigree picks and taking over. One day there will be a white guy unpedigreed, wait, I think Uchtdorf right.
I was in Utah for the Holidays last year and attended a large party where nearly everyone there was TBM. It really hit me how shallow and unsatisfying the life of your average TBM-male is, they are subject to church leaders who instruct them in everything, their wives who lead them around with rings through their noses, unsatisfying jobs that will pay to keep a SAHM wife and tithing. No physical activity other than church related. No outside interests, no deep thoughts about life, or the world and their place in it. Wives who are on average verging on morbid obesity and hubby not far behind. The thinking has been done, and we pray, pay and obey. Castrated sheep. Even those who climb the church career ladder don't seem like alpha males in the real world. They usually get their through family connections or sucking up to the right authority.
they would tell me that it as wrong and even a sin to spend time thinking about the body and spending time exercising instead of doing service and going to meetings.
My father passed away at 51 from a massive heart attack and my mother at 68 from a heart attack as well.
He approached my oldest and lectured him a few weeks after his calling about living righteously etc.
He made sure to include in the conversation that his father (me) was a decent person and that my son should give me respect even though I don't go to church.
My son relayed the conversation to me later and said, "I was being told to respect my Dad from a strange guy who doesn't really know you or us. It was like you had done something wrong and he was questioning whether I should respect you"
What my son doesn't understand is that many Mormon men in leadership believe that God has given them authority to have and share opinions about other people's lives, about whom they know very little.
I was a nevermo engaged to an rm. I had been finding out the problems with Mormonism in dribs and drabs and had just recently found out about Joseph Smith being a mason. Pace was my religion teacher (I believe Gospel Doctrine was the name of the class.) He was highly respected (yea worshipped) so I figured he'd be as good as anyone to sort out this issue for me. My main source of info about Mormonism came from Gerald and Sandra Tanner, but I was very careful to check out every small bit of info they provided to see if they were being accurate. (Of course, I soon learned after hours spent fact checking their claims that they were.) I am a thorough if not obsessive researcher when it comes to anything so I became a mini expert on Masonry as well as Smith's involvement with it.
Still, I approached my meeting with Pace demurely. I was upset because I had found out these facts about Smith that were disturbing and I wanted my fears put to rest. I told him about my engagement to my rm-a non-BYU student. We chatted; the professor briefly bore his testimony and tried to determine where I was along the path of converting to Mormonism. When I brought up the subject of Smith's involvement with masonry Pace's face went ashen. Clearly taken aback with the extent of my knowledge of the circumstances he blurted out some convoluted brief excuse/explanation that made no sense. I re-asserted my concerns. Pace abruptly ended the conversation by telling me that I must break off my engagement because my fiance "could never be happy with me knowing the truth as he does."
I left the meeting feeling both relieved and angry. I knew the truth about Smith's masonic involvement and its relevance to the temple ceremony. I had just left a conversation with a man who was revered as the "best of the best" of BYU religion professors. Clearly he was shocked with my questions and had no answers for them. This was the final straw that broke the camel's back-finally my eyes were wide open.
But what really made me angry was the advice he gave about dumping my fiance. Foolishly, somehow I believed that as Pace's student -flesh and blood sitting right in front of him- there would be some sense of compassion for my plight. But there was none. My fiance was a tbm rm and even though my professor didn't know him from a hole in the wall and couldn't answer my questions about Joseph Smith (all based on truth), his concern was all for protecting my future husband.
PS...been married 35+ years to the now exmo TBM and things have worked out.
I think you nailed it. In fact, I think the plight of the male in the church is overlooked on this board as well to a degree.
There is so much obviously wrong with the Mormon treatment of women and gays and youth in that church, that sometimes I get the feeling that many assume that it was all hunky dory for the men.
It wasn't. Your description of what their lives can be makes me think of one word: stuck.
Stuck doing the right thing, not the fulfilling thing or the from your gut thing, or the follow your heart dream, but stuck in the doing the right goddam thing at their own expense.
For every rich SP or bishop on a power trip, there are a lot of "brethren" just doing the best they can because they have been indoctrinated into a role and are being judged by even their own wives.
Your posts highlights an often forgotten piece of the puzzle.
Men, given permission by Mormonism to be the guiders and thinkers, may find it easier to think their way out of the church. Women are preyed on (to a greater degree) emotionally, hooked in emotionally, and often use emotion to rationalize away logic flaws in the church -- not because it's our nature (I for example am far more logical than emotional) but because we're not allowed to be the thinkers. That (might) make it harder for women to leave because TESTIMONY and MY HEART KNOWS and GOD LOVES ME and WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN and FAMILIES FOREVER endless emotional manipulation.
I think they are confused, conflicted by all the signals they get from the church.....always be truthful vs. lying for the lord. Blessings will come from obedience vs. being obedient and no blessings. Be the king of your castle vs. honor and respect your wife and kids. Those are anti-mormon lies vs. published essays. The list goes on and on.
Feeling confused and conflicted, and staying that way, can make one very miserable indeed.
I never wanted to be a male in mormonism and I'm female. I think there is at least equal abuse going on. I never wanted to pass the sacrament, bless the sacrament, do HT, collect FO, etc. I didn't want those callings and I didn't want a husband who had them either. My dad was not the type who wanted callings. He was in your face with I don't care what others think. So we were raised that way.
I would hate to serve a mission. Back when I was 21, they didn't send all that many girls out, so not an issue for me. I never wanted to bless my babies or baptize my children.
For a man who is an introvert, this would be pure torture.
If I had to choose, I'd rather be a woman in mormonism.
Men that would be considered popular and successful in the real world were miserable as members.
Men that would be considered weird in the real world were happy being members. This was due to TSCC making them feel special and important by being priesthood holders.
brett Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Men that would be considered popular and > successful in the real world were miserable as > members.
Mitt's rich, but he still seems kinda stiff to me. His path was smoother because he's a tall, white male with generational wealth *cough* Trump *cough*. Maybe he's only popular with certain people. Anyone, why is he unhappy?
His cousin, Park, seems to have given up a lot of worldly things for his soul. Now which is the one true Church again?
I figured out when I was a Cub Scout that I didn't want to be a Cub Scout any more. So I quit.
Some guys don't figure this out until years later. Some never do. They believe what they are fed, which is they have to keep being Cub Scouts until they die, after which they will be Dead Cub Scouts.
Mormonism is a complicated form of crowd-sourced theater where everyone is an actor playing one or more parts in the play. There's a script, but unlike other scripts it's infinitely long--there's no last page. It's not until one says "I quit!" that the illusion stops.
But that's the cool thing about Mormonism: quitting. Because only the individual can quit. It's possibly the nicest thing anyone can do for someone, and we do it for ourselves...which goes to show we're pretty awesome, truth be told.
I've learned to never get between a Mormon mother and her Cub Scout regardless of whether her child wants to be one. They don't want to be a dead Cub Scout.
The Mormons need to start doing Scout work for their dead.
I rub these sticks together for and behalf of Oscar Wilde who is dead.
The happiest TBM men I see have vital wives. They are professionals or former professionals that have taken time off to have children. Professional meaning a person that has been to school for a trade or college. They have less than 5 children and both put themselves and family first. The husband knows if he loses his job, his wife can pick up the slack without losing too much income. A friend of mine became a welder and when her husband was laid off in 2009 she got a job immediately and he took care of the kids. There is too much of you do this and I do that. Even in the temple men and women are separated. I know of 3 vital marriages so far. Primary teaches Mission, YM teaches Mission, no dating unless in a group during a vital time of exploration of dating, then going on the mission for 2 years, coming back and marrying. Women it is temple marriage and prepare yourselves for the men. No one teaches be your best self as an individual and if you get married you will be a better partner. If you don't you will have the confidence to succeed. I don't think too many members as a whole are happy.
If I'd been a TBM and bought into all the anti masturbation bullshit and given my near constant state of arousal as teen with no chance of release lest I go straight to hell, I would have been suicidal.
I was never super competitive, I never cared about aspiring as a missionary, nor before nor after the mish. Which means you get trampled on.
And I continue to get trampled on at work. I just don't care enough. Money isn't that important to me, but I need it to pay child support and to provide my kids with medical benefits so I stay. And if they don't trample me I trample myself because of self-shame I abuse myself with. I can't help it. It's who I am.
I'm such a beta in a very alpha dominated community. I fucking hate myself.
My coworker is aspiring for a promotion to VP so he can keep up with the jones's in Farmington. Apparently there's a new offroading toy or something everyone is getting that costs 5 figures. And he just has to have one to keep up.
But hey, he has motivation I guess. I couldn't give a crap if I ever got to VP. It means nothing to me. And so I'm unmotivated at work. People say I have no presence in my feedback. It's because I don't. I'm a beta. I have no voice, no confidence, no ability to impose myself without coming across like an absolute tool. People give me strange looks when they pass by me, like I'm some freak. And they're right. And so it goes on, perpetuating itself. I can't stop it, it's always been who I am. I'm a born loser. I trip up myself. I have never been able to allow myself to succeed. It'd feel wrong, like wearing two left shoes. It's not who I am to succeed. It'd feel so unnatural and uncomfortable.
I feel like there may be roots in TBMism there somewhere. I dunno. Maybe not. Maybe it's just me. Eh whatever. I dunno why I'm even posting. Sorry for wasting everyone's time.
Oh yeah, it's because it's about being miserable. I guess I just wanted to say it's not just mormon men. Exmo men are fucking miserable too. Well at least I am.
Sorry dude. I hope that you are typing that out at a particularly down moment and that it's not how you feel all of the time.
Have you thought about taking some huge leap into the unknown and trying something radically different? Maybe moving to a different part of the planet? A beta male here in the U.S. could definitely be an alpha somewhere else.
I got an advanced degree and discovered I hated the work in an office. Eventually took a warehouse job for $8/hr, 15 years ago when I had 3 kids in early teens. Loved the active work. Now manage the place.
Of course, before I changed careers, I was considered depressed, and tried meds and therapy, with no benefit.
Of course, my wife wasn't happy with the pay cut. That's when I learned what marriage was really about. Reminds me of my boy deciding while deployed in Afghanistan that he wanted out of the military. But his wife wanted him to keep deploying because he made good money there. So what if he gets shot!
Anyway, I find it tragic that so many are stuck in a job that doesn't fit their personality, mostly because they are trying to satisfy someone else, or have a certain lifestyle or want to accumulate junk.
The world doesn't really care if you're miserable. Only you can make the changes needed to match who you are with what you do.
I see happiness as simply being who you are. I now have a job I like (though do have bad days). I get to come home and mess with my cows and garden and chain saws and tractor and welder and such. Sometimes I stand out in the moonlit pine trees staring up at the stars, listening to the owls hoot, and think I really have made it to heaven.
Free Man Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I got an advanced degree and discovered I hated > the work in an office. Eventually took a > warehouse job for $8/hr, 15 years ago when I had 3 > kids in early teens. Loved the active work. > Now manage the place.
How did you ever manage to continue supporting your family on below poverty line? Did your wife need to find a different job to help offset the drop in income? That's amazing you were able to make that transition, but there are others who might not have recovered as well as you did.
I think it's great you were able to find that lifestyle balance. When I look at my finances if I had to start all over again, or go to a minimum wage paying job I don't believe I would be able to pay rent let alone a mortgage, car payment, and other necessities. And my children are now grown. I worked two non-minimum wage jobs when mine were teenagers and then college.
The assumption here over the years is that men generally get off on all that priesthood power. I never did like it, though I took positions out of obligation.
When EQ president, I was told I had to visit any family not seen by home teachers. So I spent ten+ hours a week out there. Would have much rather been home with my small kids.
All those 7AM meetings on Sunday while in a bishopric. Would have much rather been home making love to my wife.
Which makes the point. Not much about church speaks to the masculine side. All sorts of messages to squelch your interest in sex and make you instead all about family and children.
Along with the rest of society. Boys are expected to sit still in school or be drugged. Being male is now considered a disease.
I'm guessing if most men did what they wanted, they would be having sex, hunting, fishing, playing ball,working on cars, or farming or whatever. How is it we end up at church singing hymns and being beat up over porn or dirty thoughts?