For those who don't want to dismiss the supernatural and are open to an interesting perspective, I ran across a theory that Joseph was a dupe of none other than the ancient Nephalim (fallen angels).

http://www.timetobelieve.com/2012/05/nephi-mormn-connection/

Basically, since Joseph was so deep into the occult and "White magic", he became susceptible to these fallen angels who posed as Moroni and got him to start up (what morphed into) his crazy sex cult.

I'm not sure what to make of it, but it's fun reading. Nephalim are a whole other subject.

The interesting part to me was about being a Mormon for 40 years before the blinders fell off. Come think of it, I too wandered in the wilderness 40 years. Not 39, not 41.

Anyway, I found this explanation intellectually satisfying as a way to fill in some of the holes in Mormon history that are too sketchy for anything but speculation.

I believe that he plagiarized parts of a particularly bad piece of fiction (the name of which escapes me at the moment), the Bible (also a particularly bad piece of fiction, imoho), and the rest he just pulled out of his butt because he was an attention hog, a swindler, and fraud who lived to bilk people out of their money so he wouldn't have to work other than to convince people that he was the real deal.

This is not a new idea, just a variation of William Schnobelen's (the secret ordo templi orientalis priest) 'anti-mormon' claims. He was debunked soundly by the Tanners and some have mused if he is a plant, along with Ed Decker, to come up with ludicrous anti-mormon propaganda to perpetuate members' belief that all anti stuff is crazy.


However, there has to be a reason for the majority of the 'spiritual experiences' of a lot of members past and present. Each of us probably has at least one member of our families who consider 'facts' and what they may have experienced personally, and conclude that it HAS to be from god. Yet, those who believe in the bible are warned to watch out for wolves in sheeps' clothing and deceiving spirits. Those who believe in the bible also know that god allows good things to come from evil acts, so we are left with the options that either it is was all imagined or something was experienced by some people and the establishment of the church is the result.

All through history there have been people who claimed to commune with beings they considered angels. One such infamous person was John Dee, queen elizabeth the first's court astrologer. He claimed that he communed with 'angels' via his medium, the irish conman edward kelly who communicated through his crystal ball (seer stone in the hat). Like Joey boy, they claimed to have regularly felt the wrath of the beings for disobedience, or ventures failing.

So we have 3 options:

1) it is all made up

2) it is twoo and from god

or

3) it's the devil's work.

Take your pick.

anonuk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ....
> So we have 3 options:
> 1) it is all made up
> 2) it is twoo and from god
>
> or
>
> 3) it's the devil's work.
>
> Take your pick.

Fallacy of the false dilemma (or, in this case, false trilemma).

There are other options:

4) it is caused by some kind of mental illness

5) it is caused by unseen mischievous spirit beings (not necessarily satanic)

6) it is caused by self-delusion

7) other?

Lots of others, but Richard's point is valid.

Additionally, 'spiritual experiences' are adequately explained by Richard's #6, entirely and without appeal to any unverifiable 'spiritual' anything. Occam's Razor cuts to the heart of the matter again. :)

I have mentioned this before but here goes again. Years ago I had a neighbor that absolutely without any doubt was positive there was a spaceship parked over her house. It just hovered there and every night while she slept the aliens would take her up into the spaceship and heal her.

I walked her dogs everyday and she always had a story about what the aliens had done the night before.

Most logical people would think she was delusional. Although many of the same principles apply, oh yeah it could be true or it could be angels or blah, blah, blah.

Freaking eh folks, it's a vivid imagination and way too much time wanting aliens to be real. Just like JS.

How interesting! Did she have good stories?
My neighbor just tends to flowers and shrubs. No stories there.

R Packham said these reasons were missed:


4) it is caused by some kind of mental illness

5) it is caused by unseen mischievous spirit beings (not necessarily satanic)

6) it is caused by self-delusion

Another poster agreed.

Whilst I see where you are coming from and the point you are trying to make, and understand your need to list all possibilities, it is still, in my viewpoint, a threefold dilemma - all made up (includes mental illness and self-delusion which itself is a manifestation of mental illness) , it is twoo and from god, or it's the devil's work (spirit beings not necessarily satanic) - 'the devil's work' is a post-christian folk term in many countries meaning anything supernatural or unexplained, before christianity it was blamed on faeries or djinn or trolls or something else.

Invention is my favorite take. Joe was constantly working on confidence scams. He scryed for shillings and dug for dollars. Eventually he got to religion with Sidney.

agreed - deluded/mentally challenged people became convinced that it was something more than just a con, and the biggest scam of the day was 'rolled forth' and is still going now, just not with so much 'rolling forth' any more.