I'm an old gay man. I do not dispute the ideas and feelings above. But I've been hated by devoted Christians and by dedicated pagans. Somehow I could never distinguish between the two hates.

Steve, I agree, until people make social values more in line with the golden rule then judgement and hatred will unfortunately have a place in society.

Hate is hate whatever the source.

Because people like you can't see the difference in 'hate' we will have many more of these type of incidents.

Show me a video or statement made by any 'Christian religion' that calls for the killing of innocent people.

Now look at what one inman was teaching in Florida.

http://louderwithcrowder.com/orlando-imam-on-gays-death-is-the-sentence/#.V17ST7X2biw

You're kidding right? Have you been living in a cave?


David Badash

Steven Anderson a pastor in Arizona

Pastor Bailey a televangelist

for some reason all of the links I've tried to post are banned.
Try doing a google search on any three.

If your 'assertions' are correct ------ why should any religion or religious group or person be allowed to encourage people to 'kill' other innocent people in America??

There should be some common sense laws passed to make it
illegal!

I just read one of your 'false assertion' sources to see you are more 'hateful' than honest. The one preacher stated 'the bible says gays should be executed' ----- he didn't say believers or he should execute them or any other sinner!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2016 12:22PM by spiritist.

It's actually a much-debated topic. I'm on my lunchbreak right now so no time to read this entire article, but it looked interesting and relates to hate speech and First Amendment rights etc.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Inciting,+Provocative,+or+Offensive+Speech



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2016 12:31PM by seekyr.

—North Carolina Pastor argues for a gay concentration camp. Charles Worley told his congregation, “Have that fence electrified so [the homosexuals] can’t get out. Feed ‘em, and– And you know what? In a few years they’ll die out. You know why? They can’t reproduce.”

— Kansas Pastor says gays should be put to death. Curtis Knapp tells his church, “Oh, so you’re saying we should go out and start killing them? No, I’m saying the government should. They won’t, but they should.” Listen:

— Indiana Pastor says gay marriage leads to abuse of children. “A decision to allow same-sex marriages today lays the foundation for the definition of marriage to become Silly Putty tomorrow capable of endless reshaping in the future,” says Pastor Paul Brewster. “That, in turn, is a recipe for children to be made victims of all sorts of abuse and the welfare of our society to receive a fatal blow.”

— Maryland Pastor says his ‘flesh’ likes the idea of killing gays. Dennis Leatherman shouts, “Kill them all. Right? I will be very honest with you. My flesh kind of likes that idea. But it grieves the Holy Spirit. It violates Scripture.” Listen:

— Pastor advocates child abuse on gay children. Sean Harris says if a son shows what is perceived as effeminate behavior, a parent should “squash that like a cockroach,” and if they see their son “dropping the limp wrist, you walk over there and crack that wrist. Man up. Give him a good punch.”

— At church, a child sings “ain’t no homo gonna make it to heaven” — in the same town where a fifteen year old killed himself after being bullied for being perceived of as gay by his classmates. Pastor Jeff Sangl of the Apostolic Truth Tabernacle cheers on.Watch it:

Thanks for proving my point!

spiritist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for proving my point!

Um, I think he "proved" your "point" was false...

Sorry, for your lack of English comprehension!

The inman said “Death is the sentence. "We" know there’s nothing to be embarrassed about this, death is the sentence…"we" have to have that compassion for people, with homosexuals, it’s the same, out of compassion. "Let’s" get rid of them now.”

To most English speaking people that is a call to his 'muslim followers' to show some compassion and get 'rid of them now"!

The 'Christians' never said for them or their 'followers' to 'kill gays'. Pastors inferred the 'govmt' should, make it illegal, and put gays breaking that law in concentration camps and another kill them (but the Govt. not him or his members!)! Another says 'his flesh' would want to but eventually says it would offend the holy spirit. Again, a notice to kill is wrong!

Please learn English ----- I know it is tough for haters and people with agendas!

I give you an A+ in pretzel logic.

minnieme Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I give you an A+ in pretzel logic.

Absolutely. It's OK for a christian pastor to say the government should kill them, but not for a Muslim imam.

Somebody's bias is showing...

That you are trying to defend it in your faith just to bash Islam shows you have absolutely no credibility.

it's not easy when I can't seem to get a link to publish to the forum.

and really I'm 'hateful'? Dude, you got some issues.

Steve says: "I could never distinguish between the two hates".

Hate feels like hate. Haters can't justify their hate by saying there is a difference in degree.

Left out. Blamed. Ridiculed. Mocked. Disallowed. Separated. Judged. Shunned.

How would that make a person feel?

Let's not forget about the Mormon Evergreen camp where people they have judged were/are given that loving "shock" treatment to try and change their biology (a proven ineffective "treatment" for a non-disease).

Many Christian denominations and adherents cannot claim innocence either as their rhetoric against the LGBTQ community is just as venomous.

So what type or degree of hate is better than another?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2016 01:07PM by Nightingale.

I agree, hate is horrible whatever the source.

If you're running with a narrative that places blame for this hideous act anywhere beyond an individual Muslim and the murderous ideology of a sect of Islam, go look in the mirror and see the face of bigotry.

At times like these we should come to expect there will be mindless ideologues who climb up on the backs of the dead and wounded to declare that their blood is spilled at the hands of an entirely different group. If you find yourself dredging up hateful quotes from individuals who had nothing to do with this actual crime, chances are you've allowed your ideology to overtake your intellect. Read a bit of history, and you'll see you're using the same tactics as those who vilified the Jews not so very long ago.

If you're talking to Steve S., I don't see him talking about ideology. I hear him saying hate feels like hate. Someone who has been subjected to hate knows best how it feels.

"Hateful quotes" pile onto the hate "narrative" even if not directly associated with a specific act.

Speaking of "tactics", obviously there is a segment of Christianity that promotes vilification of LGBTQ individuals. Otherwise rational humans accept this ideology and use it to identify and separate people according to their biology and sexuality and make them into "the other", calling them sinners and judging them as unworthy.

There's plenty of unsavoury ideology going around. Of course what a person believes influences how they act. A well-known biblical principle is that if you hate your brother/sister you have committed murder in your heart.

Too many Christians let themselves off the hook by saying they don't hate "the sinner" but only "the sin". {{gag}}

How 'bout we hate the "sin" of infidelity, divorce, lying, theft, bigotry, hate, murderous hearts but no worries, we don't hate the sinners. Oh wait, maybe they deserve to feel some of the anti-love right back at them.

As I've asked for an eternity now, why is sin not sin? Homosexuality is apparently a sin according to a Bible translation that may or may not be accurate. But so are lying, cheating, stealing, adultery and divorce, according to many Christian rules and regs. Why are they so eminently forgiveable but homosexuality, just one "sin" amongst all the rest, not so much?

I just never get that.

The Bible also says that God is Love.

So why do so many people who identify as Christian preach and practice anti-love? I just do not get it.

Instead of hearing people who are hurting, they get accused of being idealogues and worse?

God.
Is.
Love.

Apparently.

If you read the OP you would see that he's making the statement that regardless of the source hate is hate.


I was just fulfilling seekyr's request:

"Show me a video or statement made by any 'Christian religion' that calls for the killing of innocent people."


I have never stated that the fault of this crime lay anywhere but with this person. Nowhere did I say that it wasn't a Muslim man who did this heinous crime.

I stated that hate is hate whatever the source, that society by enlarge should change.


Basically whatever religion or non-religion a person claims, if they teach intolerance and hate they are harmful.

But if you're running with the narrative that the whole Muslim religion is the only religion that is hateful you need to take a good look in the mirror. I hope I'm wrong, but that seems to be what your selling here.

Also, I'm not really sure, so could you be clear about the Jews remark. Are you saying that because I stated that hate can come from Christian sources that I'm acting like a Nazi?

Tall Man, Short Hair Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you're running with a narrative that places
> blame for this hideous act anywhere beyond an
> individual Muslim and the murderous ideology of a
> sect of Islam, go look in the mirror and see the
> face of bigotry.

Interesting how you felt you had to include the individual's "idelogy" (Muslim religion) into the "blame," but then insist that mentioning any OTHER "ideology" which vilifies and condemns the same people is "bigotry."

Hmm...

It's not "bigotry" to point out that there's plenty of hate of this group to go around, and not just from the "murderous ideology of a sect of Islam." It's just being factual. And as with ANY group, the more criticism of the group (rational or not) is accepted and promulgated, the more likely it is some "individual" will feel justified in doing real violence to them -- and that "society" will be OK with that.

You're so trapped in your ideological echo chamber you really don't seem to get it.

You've taken the occasion of this horrific carnage to climb on the backs of the dead and wounded and spout off your personal list of grievances toward groups and individuals that had no involvement whatsoever. You're an opportunistic ghoul, and you should allow the dead and wounded the dignity of not using their loss to further your personal animus toward groups that had absolutely no involvement in this crime.

Your equivocation is staggering when you claim that the hateful musings of a few deranged preachers are somehow part of the zeitgeist of codified Islamic violence that deems those same preachers worthy of death.

This event is a tragedy of staggering proportions. It's not a tool to further your personal hateful agenda toward religions that had absolutely nothing to do with it. Though you seem incapable of grasping it, not all theistic religions are the same. The hateful ruminations of a handful of fringe preachers are greeted with condemnation by their peers. The specific calls to violence by Islamic imams are received in the exact opposite manner by their peers. Only a hateful ideologue would attempt to equivocate their messages and their reception.

"If you're running with a narrative that places blame for this hideous act anywhere beyond an individual Muslim and the murderous ideology of a sect of Islam, go look in the mirror and see the face of bigotry."

As I documented in other threads yesterday, persecution and/or murder of homosexuals has been a tenet of "mainstream" Islam---not just some offshoot radical sect---since its inception. See:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1831045,1831283#msg-1831283

As of May 2011, 75 countries criminalize consensual sexual acts between adults of the same sex.[14] They are punishable by death in eight countries:

Brunei
Iran (fourth conviction)
Mauritania
Qatar
Saudi Arabia: Although the maximum punishment for homosexuality is execution, the government tends to use other punishments (fines, prison sentence, and whipping), unless it feels that homosexuals have challenged state authority by engaging in LGBT social movements.[15]
Sudan
Yemen
Parts of Nigeria and Somalia[14]

"I've been hated by devoted Christians and by dedicated pagans. Somehow I could never distinguish between the two hates."

I think it's pretty easy to distinguish between anti-homosexuals: the group that produces a follower who goes into a gay bar and murders 50 people and wounds dozens more is far worse than a Christian person or group who merely spouts anti-gay rhetoric.

I have a Mormon relative who opined to me a year ago that all gay people should be killed. I'm 100% sure that he would never act on that.

So to be clear your thesis is that because the Quran teaches that being a homosexual is a capital offense and there are some radical Muslims who feel this punishment should be carried out. Then because someone who was a Muslim murdered homosexuals that all Muslims are radical and believe the same thing?

Is that actually what you are stating?

Oh and, (I almost forgot), Christians saying that homosexuals should die is not as bad.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2016 03:28PM by minnieme.

"Then because someone who was a Muslim murdered homosexuals that all Muslims are radical and believe the same thing?

"Is that actually what you are stating?"

Nope, I'm saying that Islam AS AN INSTITUTION has persecuted and/or murdered homosexuals since its inception under Muhammad. It is a well-documented, official teaching and practice of the religion. Homosexuals are routinely executed in many Muslim-run nations today. Homosexuals are not routinely murdered by Muslims in non-Muslim-run nations because those nations have laws that prevent it. But the Orlando shooter followed the tenet of his religion, rather than the laws of the USA---much like the Mormons at Mountain Meadows in 1857 followed their religion when they murdered 120 innocent people.

"Oh and, (I almost forgot), Christians saying that homosexuals should die is not as bad."

As offensive as that verbiage is, it's protected by the 1st amendment. I'm sure that there are some homosexuals who have expressed an opinion that Christians should die as well, and there are yet other people who wish that other people whom they don't like would die. But there's a huge difference between expressing an offensive opinion and actually doing it. For example, as offensive and backwards as is the anti-gay venom spewed by those Westboro Baptist nutjobs, they have the right to say it.

randyj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As offensive as that verbiage is, it's protected
> by the 1st amendment. I'm sure that there are
> some homosexuals who have expressed an opinion
> that Christians should die as well, and there are
> yet other people who wish that other people whom
> they don't like would die. But there's a huge
> difference between expressing an offensive opinion
> and actually doing it. For example, as offensive
> and backwards as is the anti-gay venom spewed by
> those Westboro Baptist nutjobs, they have the
> right to say it.

randyj, do you think perhaps that what you said about Muslims in non-Muslim nations applies to the "christians" above, too? That they don't do it because the country they live in doesn't allow it? That if they lived in a country where it WAS allowed (say, Uganda) or where they could get away with it, that they would do it?

It wasn't that long ago, by the way, that "christian country" treatment of homosexuals was awfully, awfully bad...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2016 04:24PM by ificouldhietokolob.

I don't think anybody was arguing that Islamic state run countries aren't horrible with human rights.

I think what people are and have said is hate is hurtful regardless of the source.

The answer to that was no it's not! oh and you're a bigot because you said it was.

Well, yes. It is.

Your asshole of a cousin, yeah what he said is hurtful.

All those 'Christian' ministers, yeah, hurtful.

However, dismissing out of hand hatred because it's source is from someone who is a professed Christian and not validating the hatred because they're Christian is also hurtful.

Your argument that they're somehow not As hurtful because they didn't actually carry out any of their vile desires. Doesn't really make the argument that what they do is acceptable.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2016 07:47PM by cl2.

My personal opinion:
Those who stand at the theater door and shout, "FIRE! RUN!" -- even though they don't actually trample anyone, bear some responsibility for those that do actually get trampled.

spiritist - ask and you will receive. This religious leader/SENATOR in Georgia prayed for the death of the POTUS!!!! Is that what you had in mind? He isn't even worth the air he breaths!! F*CKER X 1 billion! Now I have proof of why I'd rather live in Utard than in Georgia. ANd for anyone who has read even a few of my posts know, I hated living in Utah with a passion. This also explains why property in Georgia [very high end homes] sell for very cheap in Georgia. Who the hell wants to live in a state that has this senator? Not me!!!!!

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/06/10/1537093/-Georgia-Senator-prays-for-Obama-s-death-in-public?detail=email&link_id=1&can_id=06f11fbc2f2ed87467436ef886685aa4&source=email-georgia-senator-prays-for-obamas-deathin-public&email_referrer=georgia-senator-prays-for-obamas-deathin-public&email_subject=georgia-senator-prays-for-obamas-death-in-public

His name is Perdue which means LOST. Perfect name for this slimeball. Threatening the POTUS! That should be illegal and he should be locked up permanently!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2016 02:27PM by verilyverily.