http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/07/noahs-ark-replica-unveiled-in-kentucky-amid-anger-at-scientifica/


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/north-america/united-states/articles/noahs-ark-theme-park-unveiled/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2016 10:15PM by anybody.

Scientists taking everything so seriously has become a cliche. Children are more clever than we give them credit for. They can call bullshit easily enough. Theme parks are supposed to be places of fantasy. The market decides what sells and what doesn't.

I've been thinking about evolution today. The word volution meaning "a single turn of a spiral or coil" and the word Eve meaning feminine creation. Evolution spirals upward toward greater complexity. Science doesn't need to answer why. It just needs to answer how. It's doing a great job of that. It only hasn't answered why because the measurement technologies to tackle the hard problem of consciousness haven't been invented yet. But the philosophical beauty and grandeur of evolution, much to the dismay of Dawkins et al, is lost on the average Joe. But then Mormons think the beauty of the gospel is lost on the average Joe. Same need to be right. People need to be. They don't need to be right.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Scientists taking everything so seriously has
> become a cliche. Children are more clever than we
> give them credit for. They can call bullshit
> easily enough. Theme parks are supposed to be
> places of fantasy. The market decides what sells
> and what doesn't.

Children may be more clever than you give them credit for (I already find them amazingly clever), but when all you're force-fed your young life is bullshit, you tend to ignore the smell. And this is bullshit.

> I've been thinking about evolution today. The word
> volution meaning "a single turn of a spiral or
> coil" and the word Eve meaning feminine creation.

Um...that's not where the word comes from. Creative, but wrong.

> Evolution spirals upward toward greater
> complexity.

No, actually, it doesn't. It *can* and sometimes does, but that's not a given nor an imperative. Evolution produces what works in a given environment. Efficiently. Sometimes (even often) that's less complexity, not more.


> Science doesn't need to answer why. It
> just needs to answer how. It's doing a great job
> of that. It only hasn't answered why because the
> measurement technologies to tackle the hard
> problem of consciousness haven't been invented
> yet.

There probably isn't a "why." At any rate, understanding consciousness better probably isn't going to provide any "why" for evolution. It'll just help us understand consciousness better.

> But the philosophical beauty and grandeur of
> evolution, much to the dismay of Dawkins et al, is
> lost on the average Joe. But then Mormons think
> the beauty of the gospel is lost on the average
> Joe. Same need to be right. People need to be.
> They don't need to be right.

Let's see, it appears your "philosophical beauty" comes from making up a false origin for the word "evolution," from wrongly assuming it always spirals towards greater complexity, and from assuming there's a "why" to it.
Hmm.
Ever consider that there are good reasons people eschew your supposed "philosophical beauty" (which is subjective anyway)? At any rate, you're wrong about Dawkins -- he waxes poetic about the subjective "beauty" of evolution by natural selection regularly. Have you read any of his works?


:)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2016 10:24AM by ificouldhietokolob.

"Let's see, it appears your "philosophical beauty" comes from making up a false origin for the word "evolution," from wrongly assuming it always spirals towards greater complexity, and from assuming there's a "why" to it."

That's all part of the fun. English is a very mystical language. Words come to have completely unintended meanings. Consider the word ergot, the rye fungus that's the precursor to LSD. People on LSD experience that name: Air God. Now it's your turn to be the caterpillar in Alice in Wonderland.

We are free to differ as to the whys. You see things I can't see, I see things you can't see. Together we synthesize a better understanding. I can't imagine there not being a why to existence because it's the greatest love song ever imagined. But that's me, the goofy dreamer. But the world still needs practicalities.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's all part of the fun. English is a very
> mystical language. Words come to have completely
> unintended meanings. Consider the word ergot, the
> rye fungus that's the precursor to LSD. People on
> LSD experience that name: Air God. Now it's your
> turn to be the caterpillar in Alice in
> Wonderland.

Or not...:)
http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2015/05/evolution-etymology/

> We are free to differ as to the whys. You see
> things I can't see, I see things you can't see.
> Together we synthesize a better understanding. I
> can't imagine there not being a why to existence
> because it's the greatest love song ever imagined.
> But that's me, the goofy dreamer. But the world
> still needs practicalities.

Of course we're free to differ.
Personally, I don't go in for arguments from personal incredulity ("I can't believe there not being..."), but if that floats yer boat, by all means, proceed.
If there is a "why," I'd just prefer to KNOW what it is (from evidence), rather than just make one up. But that's me, practical...

> That's all part of the fun. English is a very
> mystical language. Words come to have completely
> unintended meanings. Consider the word ergot, the
> rye fungus that's the precursor to LSD. People on
> LSD experience that name: Air God.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/ergot

The origin of the word Ergot:

1675-85; < French: literally, a rooster's spur; Old French argos, argoz, argot spur(s)

That's what I'm getting at. English language never imagined characterizing ergot in such an interesting way, but somehow it came to do so. It's like English trumps language as if by magic. Mystical.

I could be full of it, of course. My pantheism tends to permeate the evolution of language as well as species. At least it relies on mild self delusion at best. Not the blatant lies of Mormonism. Mystic bradley. Maybe it runs in the family.

I'm not the average monkey, but I'm proud of my heritage. We've come along way on two legs. Still as curious as ever. I notice the deeper threads of reality and have to start playing with them.

"That's what I'm getting at. English language never imagined characterizing ergot in such an interesting way, but somehow it came to do so. It's like English trumps language as if by magic. Mystical."

English language doesn't have an imagination. There's no magic going on. The person who named ergot must have seen it as resembling a cock spur. It had nothing to do with air god simply because it sounds similar to you. Facts are not fuzzy, fungible things.

You're welcome to live in a world of make believe, but it's not going to be so attractive to those of us here who prefer reality. Reality is interesting enough to most of us.

personally I applaud these creationist for standing up for a different philosophy. It shows they have intelligence and integrity to stand for something unpopular. They are no more misguided than these big-bang-bozos that run around government universities preaching monkey-man-evolution. Modern science has turned into the new Western religion, It's the biggest business of today. There are so many so called educated academians all fighting for their spot in the limelight and of course their cut of the tax payers dollars. It's all about money. The sad part is that for the most part America's youth are eating it all up, and paying for it, and not realizing what they are buying with their tuition dollars.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2016 11:22PM by poopstone.

It isn't about what is or is not popular. It's about using logic and reason to determine how things work and how things happen -- and not creating evidence to support a pre-conceived belief.

BTW, this is the twenty-first century. Evolution really happens. All known evidence today supports evolution. Surely you jest....



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2016 11:49PM by anybody.

If a Milennial loses their patience in 3 seconds waiting for some web page to load then they are not going to patiently wait 3 million years for Homo Sapiens to evolve into some new species ;) we need instant evolution now .... Or they lose interest fast ;)

When you have scientists putting down dissenting opinions, it sure does seem like a religion.

I find monkey man evolution spiritually satisfying. It's the hopes and dreams of living species that power the negentropy engine. Before men had God, monkey had God. Monkey had a prayer in his heart. He wanted to understand. That desire evolved into man. Having said all that, I suddenly want to eat a banana with my feet.

Babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When you have scientists putting down dissenting
> opinions, it sure does seem like a religion.

Young-earth creationist claims aren't simply "dissenting opinions." They're factually wrong. Demonstrably, undeniably, absolutely. And the creationists try to teach them in non-religious schools as facts -- when they're not. Scientists oppose such nonsense for good reason -- it's bullshit.

> I find monkey man evolution spiritually
> satisfying. It's the hopes and dreams of living
> species that power the negentropy engine. Before
> men had God, monkey had God. Monkey had a prayer
> in his heart. He wanted to understand. That desire
> evolved into man. Having said all that, I suddenly
> want to eat a banana with my feet.

If you there's "monkey man evolution," I'd suggest you haven't actually bothered to learn anything about evolution.
Seriously. :)

"If you there's "monkey man evolution," I'd suggest you haven't actually bothered to learn anything about evolution.
Seriously. :)"

Uh, what? I thought we went from chimps (shout out to Bubbles) through various hominids (that eventually dead-ended) and homo erectus to arrive at the terraforming ape. Unless you're referring to genetic engineering by ETs to form a slave race to mine gold. Okay, that's a little off my radar. The garden of Eden story I think we both agree is not supported by the genetic record.

"I thought we went from chimps"

Um... No. chimps, and humans have a common ancestor, long ago. Chimps are just as evolved as we are.

It's statements like you made that lead people to point out that you don't actually understand evolution.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "terraforming ape"... Terraforming refers to a process of changing a planet's environment to more closely resemble earth... Since we've only ever been on earth, it's hard for us to change earth's environment to more closely resemble itself... If anything we're doing the opposite by causing problems with the earth's existing environment and making it less habitable.

Bradley:

No, the belief is not that we came from chimps through assorted hominids to modern man. That was the idea the uninformed had at the Scopes Monkey trial.

The evolutionary idea is that mankind and chimps have a common ancestor.

Or did you really already know that and are just trying to cleverly drive hie and me to distraction?

Nope, didn't know that. I'm sure Bubbles is relieved. I must not have read closely enough or looked at the wrong web site. It does make sense that there are plenty of evolutionary dead ends between the common ancestor and the modern chimp. But I think we're picking over semantics. We evolved one way or another.

Terraforming is my shorthand for building the great wall of china, new islands, freeways, and cities large enough to alter climate patterns. Pain in the ass semantics.

I think our differences could be summed up as:
"I think, therefore I am" vs
"I feel, therefore I am".

There's a certain elegance in the first approach. It's simple and it works. You don't waste time on crazy ideas. The world stays inside tidy lines. It's like the concept of light propagating through free space. The best medium is no medium. Very elegant.

The second approach I wouldn't recommend to everyone. It's tedious to stop and seriously consider every loony idea that comes down the pike. If someone told me 20 years ago that plants created animals of their own volition, through the sheer force of their feeling, I would not have believed them. But now I think life lives because it wants to live. Life finds a way. Plant begat animal, animal begat man. And somewhere in all this, man invented God to describe the volition side of process. The why of life.

But as with making the physics of light work without the Aether, one can make existence work without "God". That's enough for some people. It's not enough for me because I'm a freak. Seen too many miracles. So I have to push the boundaries, trying to make sense of what I've seen. Brushing things off as a fluke doesn't work for me. Follow the fluke, it's the important thing that could lead to new knowledge. So, I consider the alternate view. What does it feel like to be a photon? Traveling at the speed of light, it experiences observation/absorption simultaneously with emission even across interstellar space. What's it like to not experience time? I can think that way in a feeling universe. Feeling is the thing, the creator of the universe.

I hope this is fun for you. I'm having a blast.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hope this is fun for you. I'm having a blast.

Oh you betcha!

Just a comment on the rest of the above...I find letting my mind wander into uncharted territory (new ideas, stuff we don't know, etc.) is more satisfying when I start from a base of what we DO know. Maybe that's just me, I like even my fantasies to be plausible.

I certainly don't have any problem with those who aren't like that. Unless they insist their fantasies are "real" and that I must believe them. Then they get both barrels. For good reason. :)

Keep on dreamin'. And discussing different ideas.

One of the paradoxes of modern life in America is how some people deny science and the existence of evolution but the very same people use the products of the same science in daily life to work, play, and communicate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2016 12:44AM by anybody.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Uh, what? I thought we went from chimps (shout out
> to Bubbles) through various hominids (that
> eventually dead-ended) and homo erectus to arrive
> at the terraforming ape.

Nope.
That's what I meant about doing some reading -- we and chimps (and other apes) share common ancestors, but those ancestors weren't chimps, or apes, or humans. Or monkeys.

> Unless you're referring
> to genetic engineering by ETs to form a slave race
> to mine gold. Okay, that's a little off my radar.
> The garden of Eden story I think we both agree is
> not supported by the genetic record.

Yeah -- no, that's not what I meant :) Thanks for the laugh, though!

An alien race capable of interstellar flight wouldn't need to genetically engineer a slave race of hominids to mine gold for them as it would be inefficient.

Actually the young-earthers have to have it right :) go read D&C 77:6 to see the sacred doctrinal declaration of truth on this. Of course it is has to be true because it came from Joseph smith, the great prophet and mortal man who had done more for eternal marriage than anyone in mankind save perhaps Brigham Young. I look forward to hearing the Brethren focus a few general conferences in a row to that sacred d&c 77:6 text so the world can be taught what our sacred doctrines are all about. You may not like it but the Mormon religion will thrive and be strong depending upon the truthfulness of that sacred verse :)

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_science/Age_of_the_Earth



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2016 05:25AM by anybody.

Two word: carbon dating. There are things in science that are unknown, but the difference between rational people and these nutjobs is that rational people will change their opinion when new evidence is presented to them. These idiots can't even accept a simple fact like carbon dating.

I truly am curious as to "what" most youth in America are eating up.

"I truly am curious as to "what" most youth in America are eating up."

Pop-Tarts and Hot Pockets.

What a waste of time, energy, resources, money, and life.

+1.0x10^9

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/26/us/noahs-ark-creationism-ken-ham.html?_r=0



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2016 08:22PM by anybody.

"What a waste of time, energy, resources, money, and life."

Let's just call it Dollywood for Doofuses.

Although I fully understand that evolution is random (though it does tend to follow predictable pathways - see the Princeton paper - i can find the link if desired)

I admit, I do love the image of the changing ecosystem as a spiral.

I have this affinity for spirals, the fibanacci series, the golden number, the role the spiral plays in nature - shells, leaves, tornados. Beautiful. Hypnotic.

I just keep thinking...$100 million. How many poor children could have been fed or clothed? How many educations paid for or doctor bills covered? All that money for a fairy tale. It boggles the mind.

Great discussion...and thats all it appears to be...like two fleas arguing who owns the dog they ride around on...imo we get awfully full of ourselves and all we supposedly know...opinions are like assholes everybody has one...for some reason we all need an opinion to worship...then shit...we learn something new and suddenly our assholes..oh sorry opinions change like a dirty pair of socks...everytime i start to have hope for the species...they reelect W...go figger...higher education can intoxicate as thoroughly as any mormon belief we ever held...just gotta know man...then someone figgers out egyptian writing...wall shit...maybe if i read a few more opinions or take a few more classes...itll all be explained..thats why we love burger king education..dont need patience...served up in a nice neat package with the arrogance of a gawd..and i got this paper says im smart...see says right there...why do we have such a need to know everything now...and once we think we do...everyone else is wrong...meet mormonism...maturity imo is going from cocksure ignorance to thoughtful uncertainty...the only certainties i see ...death and taxes...and of course stupid...i saw COSMOS...weve just begun to learn anything...now if we could just learn how to wipe properly after the order of melchizidek...hell we still blow shit up to escape earth gravitation which is still being argued...we still use orings sanded by polygamist women around a big table that fail if its too cold..satellites are a nice start tho if they werent being used to kill and spy on each other....yeah...real advanced...even monkeys arent that stupid

The family of my friend who grew up in Vietnam had a pet monkey. He learned to strike matches and they had to get rid of him so he wouldn't burn the house down.