An exmo friend of mine who grew up in Orem, Utah recalls
attending public school there. He mentioned that he was 12 or
13 before he realized that church and school were actually
legally separate entities. To him they were all the same
because it was the same people saying the same things.

Did any of you here go to public school in Utah back when? How
much "separation" was there between church and state? In your
American History class how did they treat the origin of Native
Americans? How often did prayer occur? I moved to Utah after
finishing public school, but I did attend a program at an
elementary school which opened with a prayer "in the name of
Jesus Christ, Amen."

I went to public schools in Orem in the 70s and 80s. I realized there was a separation of church and state because my mother made it crystal clear that I would be taught things there that might not jive with what I was learning in church. She warned me not to believe everything I was taught in school but that everything I was taught in church was true.

Edit: Prayer didn't happen. Lamanites were never mentioned. The only thing overtly Mormon was 4th Grade Utah History. Young was divinely inspired.

I believe my teacher was a lesbian. I only mention it because she was different in that she had a very close friend and not a husband. She was my favorite grade school teacher and we went on many outings with others in the class. You can't do what we did now. We hiked he Y. We explored the mountains and went to cool places. She did allow the kid's comments to the effect that Utah was divinely colonized. She didn't make them but she was devout Mormon.

Junior High biology evolution was taught. In fact my mother was right, more stuff that didn't jive with church teaching was taught.

Strange now thinking back but Orem in the 70s and 80s was a lot more open about non-LDS stuff then now I think. This was before it became the bastion of Mormonism it has become.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2016 05:28PM by Elder Berry.

"Jibe." Intransitive verb meaning to agree, to be in accord.

I believe Grammarian you were sincere in your post. I want everyone to understand that we wish that folks do not worry excessively about proper grammar. Some are typing on their phones and many are sincerely expressing themselves and in the process may have grammatical or spelling errors. Grammar is not their priority in their posts.

Be kind. If you feel a correction clarifies a post, do so with compassion and understanding that we are not professional writers or English majors.

Thanks Eric.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2016 11:30AM by Elder Berry.

Full Definition of jive
1:
swing music or the dancing performed to it
2
a : glib, deceptive, or foolish talk
b : the jargon of hipsters
c : a special jargon of difficult or slang terms
jivey play \ˈjī-vē\ adjective

2a seems easy enough to mix up with jibe. No harm no foul?

Merriam Webster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No harm
> no foul?

I think that was Eric's point. But once a person has their 'b''v'ds wrapped around the grammar axle they are always Chomsky-ing at the bit to elexiconing their logorrhea of the mouth into a universal law.

I grew up in Northern Utah in the 80's/90's. I recall a Nativity play in Kindergarten or 1st grade. After that, everything was quite PC. No praying. Only saying "under God" during the pledge of allegiance. You prayed in Seminary. Prayers before sports was rare and few participated.

Of course you couldn't get away from the culture. Sadly, I was part of it; I was so damn judgmental.

I went to public school in Southern Utah in the 50s and 60s. My town had representatives of several religions so it may not be typical. I remember a few things that wouldnt pass. When in kindergarten at the end of the Christmas pageant we all gathered around a manger. In junior high and high school there were prayers,Mormon and others,in assemblies and at graduation. Otherwise there was nothing. Many of my teachers were not Mormon or inactive.It was a pretty secular education.Evolution was taught as a fact and the teacher was a TBM who saw no problem with it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2016 05:33PM by bona dea.

I only attended kindergarten and 1st grade in Utah (Salt Lake City, Mill Creek Elementary, 1964-66).

What I remember is that every morning was started with a mormon prayer. They used those big illustrated "book of mormon stories" books to teach us to read. My kindergarten teacher, Mrs. (not MS.) Spackman, had really long toes (noticed when she'd wear open-toed shoes and I'd be on my towel on the floor during "nap time").

I don't remember much else. I do remember, after moving to California, noticing they didn't open with mormon prayer. Not that I missed it...

Except for second grade where I can't remember praying unless some child asked to do it. I think that teacher might have been a non-mormon.

In every other grade a monitor said a prayer. It was a class helper assignment like clapping erasers or being the line leader for the day.

Yes, there were other overlapping themes and experiences. Many of the same stories and basic training were taught in school and at church.

This was a farm community a little north of Ogden.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2016 05:35PM by Cheryl.

Every day the first class to arrive in the cafeteria for lunch was in charge of saying a blessing on the food. The teacher would call on someone and they would say the words about nourishing and strengthening our bodies. We'd stand and look at the floor, then take our trays to get our corn dogs and pudding or whatever.

There were prayers for special events like graduations and patriotic presentations. No prayers in classes. Mormon doctrine softly colored what I learned in elementary school. Mormon hair and dress standards were enforced in junior high and then we revolted! Many teachers in junior high and high school where I went to school were not LDS and offered a different perspective and support to those who kicked against the Mormon pricks. Every LDS kid was forced to attend seminary by mormon high school counselors in my high school. My wife attended school in a more rural conservative area and Church and School blurred quite a bit more.

Oh I forgot to mention I grew up under the years of the Indian Placement Program - I had several close friends in grade school and junior high who were Navajo - have lost contact with all of them through the years. Most did not end up being very mormon. Yes and most of them were referred to as Lamanites at church.

My wife had a very close friend who was Navajo through most of 12 years of school. She has kept in contact and he attends church with his TBM wife but not a believer anymore.

I am an old lady who grew up in NJ so there was no Mormon presence at all here, just Catholic, mainline Protestant, and a few Jews in my public school in the 50s. We had a student read from the bible, the Psalms, every morning, and said the Protestant Lord's Prayer. All us Catholic kids dropped out for "and thine is the kingdom and the glory forever Amen." I never did know why, still do not, but that was how it worked. Then we said the Pledge of Allegiance and sang " My Country Tis Of Thee".
At the time it did not seem weird, that was just how it was.

The last part of the Lord's Prayer wasnt in the earliest manuscripts and was added later. It isnt in the Catholic Bible which is why you didnt use it. Today many Catholic churches use the whole prayer but are nevertheless aware that the last part wasnt in the original.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2016 09:48PM by bona dea.

There are still Catholic churches that leave out the last part of the Lord's Prayer, at least that's what I've observed from attending weddings and funerals as my dad's family was Catholic. The only time I've seen the entire prayer recited was at Protestant denominations, especially the Episcopal church. Of course, I admit my experiences in Catholic churches is very limited, and only in southern California which still has a large Catholic population.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2016 02:23AM by adoylelb.

I grew up Catholic, not saying that last part. I always remember thinking, "Huh?" as my Protestant friends continued on. :)

The Catholic church I attend sometimes uses the whole thing regularly. I cant speak for others since I dont really remember and it has been a long time since I attended any others. Unlike the Mormon church every Catholic church isnt the
same in every way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2016 02:47AM by bona dea.

I grew up in New England in the 60s and early 70s. As a young elementary school child I remember starting off the school day with a prayer. Then one day it changed to a "moment of silence." This confused me deeply because I didn't know why we had to be quiet for a minute. Then eventually even that was dropped. In my experience public schools struggled to separate from the religious sphere.

By high school, I resented prayers before special school events. I felt that organized prayer had no place in a public school.

I grew up in Sandy and Draper area. I attended public schools from 1970 to 1983. I remember that we did the Pledge of Allegiance, kids talked about Mormon issues alot and the kids were certainly aware of who was Mormon and who wasn't. Certain teachers seemed to be very rigid and I assumed they were LDS, I don't know that they were. I had a wonderful 6th grade teacher at Butler Elementary in Cottonwood Heights that was a tennis player and Democrat, she was friends with both Governors Rampton and Matheson and got us fantastic tours of the state capitol and a day to have a mock legislature that was actually covered on the news.

I remember things in Utah in the seventies and eighties being less uptight. The schools seemed pretty normal, most of the religious bullshit I encountered was either from classmates or at church. The school seemed to be left alone as far as religion was concerned, by that token, it was still Utah so you never really had anything to controversial being brought up.

The most amazing things I remember was the amount of trust that was placed in kids. Most kids walked up and down Ft. Union (70th South) to and from school everyday with no sidewalks, it was unusual for a parent to give a kid a ride. Now it seems kids don't walk anywhere. We worked in the lunchroom and I remember taking bags of empty milk cartons down into the basement of the school, we placed them in an incinerator and took one of four matches that had been left by the custodian and lit them on fire. Never once thought twice about that.

If I recall, most students and teachers were Mormon so there was no real need to teach it or make an issue out of it, that what after-school primary and seminary were for.

I grew up in Salt Lake City in the 1950s and attended public school. One thing I remember was Utah History in 4th grade. We used a book entitled "Utah in her Western Setting". It was written by Milton R. Hunter, well known Mormon general authority. I especially liked the part about the pioneers since I was a descendant. I don't know how you could ever study Utah history without "getting into the weeds" about Mormonism. They are, for the most part, one and the same.

In high school we were given a released period if we wanted it during the day when we could walk across the street and attend LDS seminary. It was physically and religiously separated from the public school and we had separate grades and a separate graduation. Of course, most of our public school teachers were also Mormons so some of it somewhat crept into our classes at times, although I don't ever recall anything directly said either for or against the church. That was strictly hands off.

Edit - Followup: Interestingly enough, BYU has a pdf posted of the book on their website here: http://files.lib.byu.edu/mormonmigration/articles/UtahInHerWesternSetting.PDF

On page 82 it says:
"In the midst of the religious excitement of 1820,
Joseph Smith reported that he had seen a vision. He
claimed that two heavenly beings-the Eternal Father
and his Only Begotten Son-had appeared to him and had
informed him that the true church was not upon the earth.
If he lived a righteous life, he would be permitted to
establish that true church."

And on page 87:
"Brigham Young, the President of the Twelve Apostles,
became the leader of the Saints following Joseph
Smith's death. The story of the movement of the Mormons
from Nauvoo to Utah and the building of a great
commonwealth in the West is inseparably connected with
the life and activities of this man. From the time of the
death of Joseph in 1844 until Brigham's death in 1877,
President Young stood head and shoulders above his
people as their greatest character."

Clearly, the Mormon Propaganda machine was hard at work in public school on we 4th graders (ten year olds).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2016 06:58PM by Templar.

I remember that book. The father of my 6th grade teacher was a liberal Mormon who taught Utah history at BYU. He hated that book. He said if the Mormons didnt do it , it wasnt in the book. I taught Utah studies years later and the new books are much more balanced. However, the founding of the church and Brigham Young are a big part of Utah history and have to be covered.If you arer saying otherwise, I disagree, but it needs to be balanced with the contributions of others and polygamy etc should not be ignored. Also,JS and BY need to be treated as you would anyone else.That book didnt make much attempt to teach anything that didnt make the Mormons look good.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2016 02:15AM by bona dea.

Moved with the nevermo family from southern california [job transfer] to a small Utah county town in the mid 70's at the start of my sophomore year of high school.

I get my class assignments from the guidance counsler and notice seminary 6th period, whats this I ask, he says "oh we're teaching the new testament, you'll really like it" I asked for and was given another class, then there was the prayer before the assembly. That was my first clue something was not right.

health class, the assignment was to make a poster about the dangers of alcohol. ok, I'm thinking, I'm 16 and have certainly drank beer [among other things] but hey, we're all underage, having an art background I drew a real nice one in colored pencil about the evils of alcohol.

the teacher places all the posters around the room and picks the best 3, mine is picked 2nd, I got it in the bag I'm thinking, looking at the other 2 posters. the teacher picks the winner......... a stick figure drawing saying "the family that plays together, stays together" I'm like WTF, then I notice the chapel across the street from the school, that's when I knew I was deep in enemy territory.

I quickly sought out the jackmo's and my experience was not bad at all after that, it sucked living under the thumb of lds inc. A lot of mormons are asswipes but I found the majority of the members are decent hardworking people, but it didn't stop me from getting the hell out of there as soon as I was able

My daughter was just starting 2nd grade when we moved to a small town in Utah(Nevermos) and had there been any church-related BS, I would have made a huge scene but there never was, thankfully.

When she started high school, however, she did not want to attend that particular high school in the same town. She opted to attend Catholic high school in SLC, though we are not Catholic. That may have been her choice partly because she knew that I had attended a Catholic high school in Colorado and loved it. Also, the SLC Catholic high school had given a presentation to her junior high class,which played a big part in her wanting to attend there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2016 10:39PM by cinda.

I went to high school in Logan in the early '60's. The Mormon related incident that I remember is when ET Benson came to town and gave an over the top speech about the threat of communism in the country. He mentioned many prominent people who were "sympathizers."

We spent the next 2 weeks in French class dissecting the talk with the teacher trying to whip us into an anti communist frenzy. What a bunch of shiz.

It's interesting reading about where people grew up.

I have few cogent memories from before I turned 20. There were big people, I recall. The one with more hair set plates of food in front of me. There were a couple of houses--the big people followed me as I moved, or maybe I followed them. There were pet turtles; they all died. There were classrooms and teachers, who praised or castigated me for unknown reasons. One of the big people got sick and died. My conscious mind was like a condom: I wrapped it tightly around my soul, for protection.

Rather than growing up, I decided to grow down. Fortunately I managed to tunnel through to the other side. It's been an interesting journey, meandering my way back to where I started. Nothing is as it was, of course. But I did manage to get back to where I should have been, even if it isn't where I was.

Dumb luck is our friend, sometimes.

Not sure if the 70's are considered the good old days but here are my memories..

Still lots of orchards interspersed with housing tracts. Traffic was less. Perpetual haze over Geneva Steel.

Of course the church was everywhere - it is Utah Valley after all-though I seem to remember it being a lot more laid back than it is today. At OHS there were opening prayers before prep rally's and school assemblies. The seminary teachers wielded a lot of power over the minds of the student body. I had one teacher who commented to me that "the brethern" should keep to their building and out of the school.

I guess I was lucky in the neighborhood and ward I lived in. The bishop was a professor at BYU but really cool. After being made to fear my eternal soul by a seminary teacher I crawled into the bishops office when I was 16 to confess my multiple indiscretions. I was sure I would be crucified in front of the ward but no, he pretty much brushed it off as no big deal and set me on my way.

I actually have mostly fond memories of those years.

My family was not super Mormon. I went to Primary and Sunday School. There was very little religion at home. From day 1 in Granite District schools in the 60's, I knew school and church were separate. There were never any prayers in school. Some kids in school also went to primary. Very little talk about Mormonism in school. A joke in 4th grade: "Do you know Pres. Kennedy was Mormon? He was shot in the temple." Poor taste, but 4th grade humor. There was a rumor that we were going to get "grades" in Primary. I dismissed that because I knew that grades in Primary wouldn't "count." We sang Christmas carols in school without restriction. There was no attempt at diversity--Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, etc. were never mentioned. I remember drawing a mural in 2nd grade of the wise men riding to see Jesus. I high school journalism, I submitted a story idea about a seminary teach who had been a rodeo bull rider. The teacher said seminary was separate from school, and I couldn't write the story. My school experience, church and school were separate.

baura Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> An exmo friend of mine who grew up in Orem, Utah
> recalls
> attending public school there. He mentioned that
> he was 12 or
> 13 before he realized that church and school were
> actually
> legally separate entities.

When did he grow up in Orem? I lived there for my first 20 years. I lived in Utah a total of 30 years.

Church and state are definitely in bed together there but there are lots of Mormons and non-Mormons who hate and work against this fact.

Thank God for them.

I went to public schools in Salt Lake and never ran into those problems.

Thinking about it, I don't think my kindergarten/first grade teacher was mormon, nor my 3rd grade teacher, or my 5th grade teacher.

Being raised in such a small place, I did feel like mormonism pretty much occupied the whole world (my world that is). My parents never made much of things like nonmormon teachers. Actually, both 5th grade teachers that year weren't mormon. My best friend through elementary school came from a mixed marriage (mormon/nonmormon, though the mormon one did not attend) and she quit attending church when we went into middle school. I spent A LOT of time at her home. My parents never thought a thing of it. Our neighbors until I was about 12 were also not mormon.

We didn't pray in class, but did at assemblies, etc. No praying over lunch.

I found Utah History extremely boring, but I don't remember all that much about if there was a separation of church and state.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2016 01:21PM by cl2.