The thread about the Pakistani woman who was the victim of an "honor killing" closed before I could make further comments on it. Some of the comments on that thread reminded me of a quote attributed to General George Patton. I think his statement sums up the mindset of the people in that culture:

“It seems to me a certainty that the fatalistic teachings of Mohammed and the utter degradation of the Arab women are the outstanding causes for the arrested development of the Arab. He is exactly as he was around the year 700, while we have been developing.”

That has a lot to do with western colonialism. During the Middle Ages they were the advanced ones

randyj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The thread about the Pakistani woman who was the
> victim of an "honor killing" closed before I could
> make further comments on it. Some of the comments
> on that thread reminded me of a quote attributed
> to General George Patton. I think his statement
> sums up the mindset of the people in that
> culture:
>
> “It seems to me a certainty that the fatalistic
> teachings of Mohammed and the utter degradation of
> the Arab women are the outstanding causes for the
> arrested development of the Arab. He is exactly as
> he was around the year 700, while we have been
> developing.”

It is important to point out here that Patton's words are unclear in their meaning...

Although many/most Arabs are Muslims, many Muslims are NOT Arabs.

Did Patton, when he wrote or said these words, mean "Arab" or did he mean "Muslim"???

Even in Patton's time there was a difference in the two terms, but AFTER Patton's time this difference has been (by historical standards) increasing at a very rapid rate in many areas of the "Arab" world, and also in the "Muslim" world, including Afghanistan (and at least some of the other "stans" as well), Iran, Syria/Iraq, Turkey, the Emirates, Jordan/"Palestine," etc.

Things are far from ideal in ANY of these places, but by historical standards, the on-the-ground improvements are startling.

Pakistan is one of the hard cases, but even in Pakistan, things are improving for ever-increasing numbers of Pakistani women.

"Honor killings" are horrific whenever and wherever they occur (and they do continue to occur, even in places like the United States)...but the direction of events, is---from a macro level---in the direction of human rights.

This does not excuse a single case of "honor" killing, but it does give hope that in the not-too-long-from-now future, there will finally be a time when, at least statistically, NO "honor killings" will be allowed to occur without the same criminal punishment as applies to any murderer in that society.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2016 02:38PM by Tevai.

"Did Patton, when he wrote or said these words, mean "Arab" or did he mean "Muslim"???"

Since he referred to "the fatalistic teachings of Mohammed," I'd say that he meant the religion as well as the culture.

"Most Muslim apologists and also some gullible westerners want to argue that the ‘so called “honor killing” is not Islamic and it’s a tribal/cultural vice.’ This statement is utterly untrue and only a wish full covers up. It’s true that in pre-Islamic Arab culture this heinous honor killing of women did exist; likewise, many other uncivilized practices like stoning, flogging, beheading, slavery etc also existed in the pre-Islamic Arab society. But Islam did incorporate entirely most of these inhumane/uncivilized practices of pagan society, which they now call them Allah’s laws.

"Had it been the tribal/cultural practice, ‘honor killing’ would exist amongst the Arabs only. But honor killing does happen amongst the non-Arab Muslims also. Also Arabs belonged to all religions (Muslims, Christians, Jews, Bhai etc.) would practice honor killing with equal prevalence. Fact of the matter is—no Arab Christians, Jews or Bahai etc do practice this uncivilized act at all. Only Arab Muslims do practice this heinous act with a regular pattern."

http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/honor_killing.htm

This is good information, randyj...

Thank you!!!

Based on your response, I assume that you're neither a Muslim apologist or a gullible westerner. :-)

Then what?


What is accomplished by saying "Islam is an evil ideology that is violent and extremist. Anyone who is a Muslim is capable of becoming a terrorist at any given moment. The goal of Islam is to force the entire population of the Earth to convert or die and impose Sharia law on the entire world."


I really don't understand the point you are trying to make. It seems to me this sort of thinking can't lead to anything except racism and xenophobia:


"We Want Our Country Back" (BBC "Britain First" Documentary)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byRGsYJAPPA


As Bona Dea has said, modern Islamic Jihadi terrorism is really about colonialism, dictatorship, and poverty in the Arab Middle East. Before that it was the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. A small minority of Muslims reject the modern world and believe that a return to the mythic Islamic age of the seventh and eight centuries when the Prophet Mohammed was alive will solve all of their problems. Religion is a veneer that these terrorists use to justify their actions.


If you REALLY want to understand the roots of the modern terrorist movement I suggest you read about Said Qutb:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qutbism



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2016 03:19PM by anybody.

Mullah Omar said "we have many young men willing to die for jahad".

General Patton said "The idea isn't to die for your country. The idea is to make the other son of a bitch die for his country".

The problem is, they're doing this for their religion, not for their country. We killed half a million of them in Iraq (little known fact). And they're still coming out of the woodwork.

A lot ofit is about politics and that is a fact too



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2016 07:21PM by bona dea.

you will be doing the terrorists' work for them.

Please use your head and think instead of reacting emotionally.

Most of the victims of Islamic terrorism are other Muslims. Look at the facts and evidence. The goal of terrorism is to make you react without thinking so more people will join their cause.

I know people who lived in Russia during the Soviet era. They all have a father or grandfather or aunt or uncle who died in the Great Patriotic War (what the Russians call WWII). Few people really believed in communism but they would fight and die for Holy Mother Russia. A religious crusade to wipe out Islam will just make things worse.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2016 04:39PM by anybody.

What he's doing is having a conversation on RfM. Your attempt to shut down conversation is suspect. Freedom of speech is how these kinds of situations are best handled, not by shutting up and letting anybody on the internet demand compliance to their opinions.

Seriously -- I don't understand. I don't get it. There are many versions of Islam. It might be somehow emotionally satisfying to say "Islam is evil," etc. but why? What good will it do?

And that long-time poster is now dragging in politics (below) in an obvious attempt to get the thread closed.

We were discussing what a religious nut did to his sister, not the global scourge of terrorism.

Talk about unhinged.

I think it's a given that when someone refers to "a TBM" that it doesn't refer to "all TBMs," but god forbid someone refer to "a Muslim." All of a sudden the person who used the term is incapable of any type of discetion concerning Muslims, and is accused of bigotry.

Get over it, apologists. There are a lot of very bad Muslims in the world, and they would remove your head for trying to say that their war-like and bloody purposes were not commands from Allah.

Is this to say that all TBMs, uh, Muslims are evil? No, but most all all suscribe to the same religious cult, most are BICs, and "free will" has nothing to do with membership status.

I don't think so.

And I'm not trying to make this a political discussion.

Religion is a messy topic. I don't believe and I don't belong to any faith.

I'm just saying honour killing (and terror) according what Muslim scholars themselves say is un-Islamic.

The same is true in Western society. People do things for cultural reasons and then try and find religious reasons to justify it. In Canada and America circumcision is done for health reasons but in Europe it is not because of cultural reasons (i.e. anti-Semitism) partly based on religion. You also won't find many people named Sarah or Issac in continental European countries who aren't Jewish for the same reasons. Slavery was said be a perfectly natural practice in the South and the Bible justified it. In the North people used Christian teachings to say slavery was a sin and was against God.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2016 05:43PM by anybody.

Claiming they do is a fallacy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2016 05:48PM by Cheryl.

Anybody, you are right. Attitudes like some expressed here are a cause of Muslim anger. I would be angry too if I were continually blamed for something I didnt do. If a poster doesnt mean all Muslims, he can say so because it isnt that hard. Otherwise he has no one to blame if we think he is blaming an entire religion. A couple of posters have been writing constantly about how evil Islam is without acknowledging that Islam is diverse. Some days, I am embarrassed to be a member of this group and I want to go on record as saying I strongly disagree with the Islamaphobia of a few.I also disagree with terrorism and honor killings, but so do lots of Muslims.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2016 07:25PM by bona dea.

anybody wrote: >Re: Having an mind and knowing history means I support terror?
_______________

Please reply a quote where I wrote that you support terror.


Please quote where you have stated at least one time, that a Muslim killed his sister, because she was not being "Muslim" enough for her Muslim family. Where is your outrage for her?! She is DEAD, and you are referencing ancient history, like you're the only one who knows it, and insinuating that I have a "closed" mind.


I would also appreciate a link to a non-Muslim honor killing, if you please, just so that I can have a more "open mind."

You can be against honor killings and Islamophobia at the same time

Again, the thread was about a murder in ONE Muslim family. There are so many such murders of Muslim women, that a pattern of behavior can be shown. There are websites and laws devoted to helping trapped women. Some would like to claim that "true" Islamic people would "never" perpetrate these crimes, but the perpetrators claim to be Muslim.

Some here would deny that the perpetators are Muslim. In other words, this is strictly a Pakistani cultural murder, unrelated to religion.

Actually bona dea, her attitude sounds remarkably similar to yours. Too bad she was born Musli...er, Pakistani.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/pakistani-model-killed-offending-conservatives-40629657

The following site oozes the beauty of Islam, much like TBMs ooze love for gays. You can "tap or pat" your wife to admonish her, but not "beat" her. Yes, I bet they are as good at applying "loving" discipline as TBMs are... Because Muslim women are "never" abused in the name of religion. Would that make me "Islamophobic" against the husbands, or the "patted," bruised and broken wives? I mean, to look those women in the eyes and to tell them to stay a Muslim, because Islam is "beautiful" and religion has nothing to do with the "patting" they received, is like telling a young gay person to remain a Mormon because all the hate is wrongful according to ... oh, wait. It's sort of written into the texts...

http://www.missionislam.com/family/beatwives.html

You might read their peaceful mission, where they are commanded to make Islam the law of the "entire world." Just think. No woman left unpatted. Including you.

Gay people - those "abominations" rank right up there with the honor killing of disobedient women.

I stand with the oppressed, whatever their nationality, race or creed, without apology. Just call me "Mormonophobic," too. So what about the confusion when the oppressed are oppressors, too?

So let's agree that "most" Muslims are moderate, don't take the texts literally, don't beat or honor kill women, - are we still in Pakistan? No. We're in the Western world. There is a difference. However, when the annual parade of Muslims march past my work to their place of worship, and the men and boys ask to use the restrooms, I wonder, don't those hooded women toting all that stuff need to pee, too? I guess not. Only the males come in to relieve themselves. What's up with that?

That's not "Islamophobia." That's straight reporting. Observation, question, a little snark thrown in. Snark because the women knew to deny themselves fluids, or they are peeing on the ground in a manner we can't see (handy garments!), or they are miserable.

Whatever. Feel free to provide the requested quotes / links.

Of course I don't condone honour killing.

Her brother says he killed his sister in the name of Islam.

Islamic scholars say honour killing is against Islam.

There are all manner of Islamic judges (qadis) from different schools with different opinions -- just as in western countries.

Most Christians don't follow all of the ten commandments and do many things in the name of God that aren't necessarily Christian either.

https://www.ncronline.org/news/faith-parish/cardinal-timothy-dolan-islamic-state-muslim-irish-republican-army-was-catholic

NEW YORK: Cardinal Timothy Dolan of New York said Islamic State militants terrorizing the Middle East are a distortion of "genuine" Islam much as the Irish Republican Army was a "perversion" of Catholicism.
Dolan's comments to CNN on Tuesday reflect similar statements about the Islamic State group from Pope Francis, but they also echo some of President Barack Obama's controversial remarks on Islam, Christianity and the history of violence carried out in the name of religion.

"The IRA claimed to be Catholic," Dolan told CNN anchor Chris Cuomo. "They were baptized. They had a Catholic identity." But, he continued, "what they were doing was a perversion of everything the church stood for."

The spiritual leader of New York's 2.8 million Catholics, Dolan said that likewise, the Islamic State extremists "do not represent genuine Islamic thought" but are "a particularly perverted form of Islam."

"The analogy [to the IRA] is somewhat accurate," said Dolan, an Irish-American who on March 17 will serve as grand marshal of the city's St. Patrick's Day parade.

"These are not pure, these are not real Muslims. Now what we need and what Pope Francis has led the world in saying, is we need the temperate, moderate, genuine forces of Islam to rise up and say this -- they do not represent us. Now, that's beginning to happen. God can bring good out of evil."

Francis has frequently said the Islamic State does not represent genuine Islam and that "all religions have these little groups." And he has pointed to instances when Catholics used religion to justify terrible violence.

But Obama sparked a fierce backlash at last month's National Prayer Breakfast when he said the Islamic State does not represent genuine Islam. He also said Christians should not "get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place," because in the past believers also "committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ."

Obama has also been criticized for not highlighting the fact that many Islamic State victims are targeted because they belong to the relatively small but ancient Christian communities in the Middle East.

Dolan showed no such hesitation this week, saying he believed the group was conducting a "systematic, well-choreographed, very well-focused attempt to eradicate the ancient Christian population in the Mideast."

The IRA was a violent extremist group that existed in various forms throughout most of the 20th century, staging brutal terrorist bombings and attacks aimed at ending British sovereignty in largely Protestant Northern Ireland.

Some Catholic leaders strongly denounced the IRA and sought to downplay the religious aspects of the violence, but the IRA also found support among many clergy and the faithful.

The IRA largely ended its armed struggle after the April 1998 Good Friday Agreement, although some holdouts remain.

So what's the difference between being a Mormon apologist and a Muslim apologist? I'd like to know.

http://www.theahafoundation.org

http://www.theahafoundation.org/about-us/

The Muslims more often have names similar to Arabian knights.

Sorry, I don't believe in hate.

People are individuals and commit acts as individuals -- not as religions, races, colours, or ethnicities.

I guess I'm in the minority here but so be it.

sanybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry, I don't believe in hate.
>
> People are individuals and commit acts as
> individuals -- not as religions, races, colours,
> or ethnicities.
>
> I guess I'm in the minority here but so be it.

Most people commit acts as individuals, but there can be most effective social/culture pressure applied so that "individual" acts become the result of a collective.

The Crusades...the Inquisition...every mother in ancient Israel who ever turned her infant over to be burned alive...the Japanese Emperor's military personnel in WWII...every person who ever turned in a slave who was attempting to flee slavery...those who participate in genocides as "good citizens" of their society...the Jim Jones people in Guyana...those who, right "here" and right "now" have exorcisms performed on their children...athletic team hazings and bullying and the "mean girls" phenomenom...and many, many other concrete examples very close to "home" for all of us, many of which are reported daily in the news.

History makes abundantly clear that acts which are technically "individual" are, in reality, frequently "suggested," and either "encouraged" or "permitted" or ordered by groups or individuals of countless different kinds, from one-on-one situations upwards.

Clear black-and-white situations are only a smaller percentage of the whole.

As in most any other aspect of human life, it is the shades of grey in between the extremes which predominate.

This real problem in the nature of our species has probably been with us since we became our species...and we are still trying to figure out, as individuals, and as societies and cultures, where "right" actually IS.

Sometimes finding that place of "rightness" seems incomprehensibly difficult for people, even when the problem itself is, at least apparently to everyone involved, clear.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2016 07:11PM by Tevai.

Well said, Tevai.

We used to have plants who tried to steer the conversation in favor of the mormon agenda. Now it's a different kind of plant situation.