They're all evil, right? They are all thieves and murderers, aren't they? The whole lot should be wiped out and exterminated, shouldn't they? Once a Mormon, always a Mormon.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Executive_Order_44#Text_of_the_order

Headquarters of the Militia, City of Jefferson, Oct. 27, 1838.

Gen. John B. Clark:

Sir: Since the order of this morning to you, directing you to cause four hundred mounted men to be raised within your division, I have received by Amos Reese, Esq., of Ray county, and Wiley C. Williams, Esq., one of my aids [sic], information of the most appalling character, which entirely changes the face of things, and places the Mormons in the attitude of an open and avowed defiance of the laws, and of having made war upon the people of this state. Your orders are, therefore, to hasten your operation with all possible speed. The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the state if necessary for the public peace--their outrages are beyond all description. If you can increase your force, you are authorized to do so to any extent you may consider necessary. I have just issued orders to Maj. Gen. Willock, of Marion county, to raise five hundred men, and to march them to the northern part of Daviess, and there unite with Gen. Doniphan, of Clay, who has been ordered with five hundred men to proceed to the same point for the purpose of intercepting the retreat of the Mormons to the north. They have been directed to communicate with you by express, you can also communicate with them if you find it necessary. Instead therefore of proceeding as at first directed to reinstate the citizens of Daviess in their homes, you will proceed immediately to Richmond and then operate against the Mormons. Brig. Gen. Parks of Ray, has been ordered to have four hundred of his brigade in readiness to join you at Richmond. The whole force will be placed under your command.
I am very respectfully, yr obt st [your obedient servant],
L. W. Boggs, Commander-in-Chief."


This kind of thinking doesn't solve anything and it's not going to solve the problem of Islamic terrorism.

Whenever anybody anywhere cites this order of Governor Boggs, the only honest thing to do is also to quote the July 4 public sermon of Sidney Rigdon, preached six months earlier and published immediately in pamphlet form, in which Rigdon declared a "war of extermination" against the non-Mormon Missourians.

Often there is more than one side to a story and citing one of them proves the speaker is biased and hopes other sides of the story will remain hidden.

and I'm not saying the Mormons were innocent victims who had done nothing. My point was exterminating anyone in the name of religion is wrong and just creates more problems.

Unless it's you since it seems to be a topic of choice.

That makes no sense.

No, I'm not saying that.

I'm saying judging people by groups instead of individuals helps foster hate and intolerance and that can lead to lots of nasty things like racism, xenophobia, genocide, etc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2016 05:29PM by anybody.

How many Mormons were murdered as a result of the extermination order? They were driven from the state for real crimes. The "extermination order" did not make it open season on Mormons. This has absolutely nothing to do with genocide.

Exactly. Too bad some people cant get that.

Link to primary source?

I've skimmed a number of threads but did not find a scanned document or other like primary source.

"Whenever anybody anywhere cites this order of Governor Boggs, the only honest thing to do is also to quote the July 4 public sermon of Sidney Rigdon, preached six months earlier and published immediately in pamphlet form, in which Rigdon declared a "war of extermination" against the non-Mormon Missourians."

Exactly. Quoting from one of my old posts:

Late LDS author Harold Schindler recounted the series of events that caused
Governor Boggs to issue his "Extermination Order," which came the day after the
skirmish between Missouri militiamen and Mormon "Danites" at Crooked River:

"Twenty-four hours after the Crooked River fight, Boggs, armed with the
affidavits of Marsh and Hyde plus complaints from frightened settlers
describing a wholesale Mormon rebellion, ordered two thousand militiamen from
five divisions into the field...Then Boggs received a message confirming an
earlier report of Bogart's defeat but compounding the rumors of a
massacre...this report prompted Boggs to issue his infamous 'Extermination
Order' of October 27 to General John B. Clark. In effect, the order challenged
Sidney Rigdon's Fourth of July address in which he defied the Gentiles and
threatened a 'war of extermination.' It was more than coincidence that Boggs
chose that particular word in his instruction to General Clark."

("Orrin Porter Rockwell: Man of God, Son of Thunder," Harold Schindler, pp.
56-58.)

Thus we see that the major incident which spurred Boggs to issue his
"Extermination Order" was the Crooked River skirmish, wherein several men on
both sides were killed. That event made Boggs realize that the Mormons would
not peacefully cohabit the state with non-Mormons, and since many Mormons had
taken a secret oath to obey Smith's every order, even those which called on
them to commit crimes, Boggs was forced to evict all of the Mormons from the
state.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1762096,1762096#msg-1762096

I don't want to exterminate Mormons.

However, I can think of a couple who would look good in a petting-zoo-type set-up. There could be a missionary exhibit and then over there a testimony diorama with weepy TBMs relating how happy they are.

There'd be little machines where you could buy Mormon food in pellet form. Maybe a handcart exhibit where Mormons walked around and around pushing their handcarts in a never-ending circle.

There would be tapirs, and a "Lamanite" exhibit with Indians or what not.

Not long after Rigdon's rousing speech, Boggs was shot in his home through the window. He was expected to die, but he pulled through and recovered. Then he issued the order. Wouldn't you?

Joseph dealt with disagreements with neighbors by ordering the stealing, er, consecration of their property. That and the polygamy and the apparent insurrection against the government was a recipe for disaster. Joe sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind.

"Not long after Rigdon's rousing speech, Boggs was shot in his home through the window. He was expected to die, but he pulled through and recovered. Then he issued the order. Wouldn't you?"

Joseph Smith sent Porter Rockwell to shoot Boggs several months after the Mormons had been driven out of Missouri, after they were settled in Nauvoo. Boggs didn't issue the extermination order because he'd been shot, but because the Mormons had waged civil war upon the non-Mormon populace of Missouri.

said the Dalek.

"They're all evil, right? They are all thieves and murderers, aren't they? The whole lot should be wiped out and exterminated, shouldn't they? Once a Mormon, always a Mormon."

Boggs' order did not call for the Mormons to be "wiped out," and not a single Mormon was killed because of Boggs' order. "Extermination" meant to be driven from the state, not murdered.

If you want to know the true facts about Boggs' extermination order, I suggest that you start here:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1762030,1762030#msg-1762030

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1763474,1763474#msg-1763474

"This kind of thinking doesn't solve anything and it's not going to solve the problem of Islamic terrorism."

Since you apparently have a skewed, wild, and completely false view of the Mormon expulsion from Missouri, I'll keep that in mind when you make comments about Islam.

If you want to know more about the true history and agendas of both Islam and Mormonism, you can consider this 1838 statement of Joseph Smith, Jr.:

“If the people let us alone, we will preach the gospel in peace. But if they come on us to molest us, we will establish our religion with the sword. We will trample down our enemies and make it one gore of blood…from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean. I will be to this generation a 2nd Muhammad, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Al-Qur’an or the sword.’ So shall it be with us — ‘Joseph Smith or the sword!’" (See History of the Church, Vol. 3, p. 167).”

Fine, you win. Islam is evil, Islam threatens the civilised world and all Muslims will be exterminated and expelled from every western country.


Let the Crusade begin! Praise the Lord! Hallelujah!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2016 11:26PM by anybody.

"Fine, you win. Islam is evil, Islam threatens the civilised world and all Muslims will be exterminated and expelled from every western country."

No one on this BB has written that, or even implied it. Are you intellectually capable of carrying on discussions without using strawman arguments?

There is no Islamic menace as imagined by reactionary religious conservatives. If you listen to these people they go on and on about the evils of Islam, the plot to takeover America, kill Christians and impose Sharia law. This is nonsense but many people believe it. Quoting Patton and McArthur and wondering how they would deal with "those people" makes me wonder.

Ancient social customs take a long time to change in traditional societies irregardless of religion. In the West people deal with constant change. Go back a few hundred years in Europe and people there were engaged in the same sort of barbaric warfare that is taking place now in the mideast.

I remember driving by the small mosque in my town on the night of Tuesday, 11 September 2001. People from the neighborhood stayed up all night holding hands in a human chain around the building to keep anyone from burning it down.

That's the America I believe in.

You put words into posters' mouths, then refute them. You spin facts of mormon history as if no one here knows their own roots. You set yourself up as the authority from out of the blue though you're a drive by poster with an agenda and not a person willing to allow for free open discussion. We are used to this attitude among mormon leadership and can spot it in a minute.

"There is no Islamic menace as imagined by reactionary religious conservatives."

Anybody, please educate yourself:

"The first military rulings were formulated during the first hundred years after Muhammad established an Islamic state in Medina. These rulings evolved in accordance with the interpretations of the Quran (the Muslim Holy scriptures) and Hadith (the recorded traditions of Muhammad). The key themes in these rulings were the justness of war, and the injunction to jihad. The rulings do not cover feuds and armed conflicts in general.[14]

"The millennium of Muslim conquests could be classified, technically, as "religious war", however the applicability of the term has been questioned. The reason is that the very notion of a "religious war" as opposed to a "secular war" is the result of the Western concept of the separation of Church and State. No such division has ever existed in the Islamic world, and consequently there cannot be a real division between wars that are "religious" from such that are "non-religious". Islam does not have any normative tradition of pacifism, and warfare has been integral part of Islamic history both for the defense and the spread of the faith since the time of Muhammad. This was formalised in the juristic definition of war in Islam, which continues to hold normative power in contemporary Islam, inextricably linking political and religious justification of war.[15] This normative concept is known as Jihad, which includes the aspect of physical struggle."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_violence

"Islamics Launched their Crusades in 630 A.D.
Western Crusades started in 1095 A.D. to Stop Muslim Invasion
The Crusades were started by the Muslims in the year 630 A.D. when Muhammad invaded and conquered Mecca. Later on, Muslims invaded Syria, Iraq, Jerusalem, Iran, Egypt, Africa, Spain, Italy, France, etc. The Western Crusades started around 1095 to try to stop the Islamic aggressive invasions. Islamic Crusades continued even after the Western Crusades.

"Islam – Not a Religion of Peace
Islam has killed about 270 million people: 120 million Africans*, 60 million Christians, 80 million Hindus, 10 million Buddhists, etc.

"Forced conversions to Islam have been the norm, across three continents—Asia, Africa, and Europe—for over 13 centuries. Orders for conversion were decreed under all the early Islamic dynasties, under both Seljuk and Ottoman Turkish rule, and in Persia/Iran and the Indian subcontinent, etc.

"Islam has been at a continuous war against non-Muslims for almost 1400 years (since Muhammad.)"

https://factreal.wordpress.com/2010/02/12/muslim-crusades-started-four-centuries-before-the-western-crusades/

"The early Muslim conquests (Arabic: الفتوحات الإسلامية‎‎, al-Futūḥāt al-Islāmiyya) also referred to as the Arab conquests[2] and early Islamic conquests[3] began with the Islamic Prophet Muhammad in the 7th century. He established a new unified polity in the Arabian Peninsula which under the subsequent Rashidun and Umayyad Caliphates saw a century of rapid expansion.

"The resulting empire stretched from the borders of China and India, across Central Asia, the Middle East, North Africa, Sicily, and the Iberian Peninsula, to the Pyrenees."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests

"Muhammad clearly established that people of other religions have to pay a poll tax to Muslims called the jizya, as a reminder of their inferior status. This abrogates an earlier verse stating that there is "no compulsion in religion" and it destroys any pretense that Islam is merely a religion and not a political system."

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/jizya.aspx

"Jizya is sanctioned by the Qur'an based on the following verse:[71]

"Fight those of the People of the Book who do not [truly] believe in God and the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden, who do not behave according to the rule of justice, until they pay the tax and submit to it.
— Qur'an, [Quran 9:29][72]"

The USA's first conflict with Islam was in the 1780s, when Barbary Coast pirates began attacking and plundering American merchant ships:

"In March 1786, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to London to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy, ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). When they enquired "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:

"It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once." [23]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War

"Anybody," I suggest that you study this material, and decide whether or not Islam is a menace to the USA and the entire western world.

Snort.

Pity you'd take the time to cut and paste all that and not get a few dollars from David Horowitz.

But if you have the time to do his work for him, well...I'm sure he won't complain.

Human

"The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom."

Thank you for being rational, anyone

"Thank you for being rational, anyone"

Bona dea, kindly read the quotes and links I provided in my response to "anybody" above.

You've stated in the past that you "have studied Islam on the university level, thank you." Perhaps you could use a refresher course.

I consider the whole "Mormon war" to be a case of pumped-up hysteria that cascaded into calamity because both sides were unwilling to compromise or find a way to coexist. I've always hated the way Mormons flip the whole thing into a persecution, as if they were little pious pacifists just trying to get along. This was the wild frontier, and not a place where people tended to have much tolerance. The Mormons framed themselves as fully entitled to as much land as they wanted because God says, and it developed into a classic religion-driven shit storm. Religion causes most wars. It's bad for us.

"I consider the whole "Mormon war" to be a case of pumped-up hysteria that cascaded into calamity because both sides were unwilling to compromise or find a way to coexist. I've always hated the way Mormons flip the whole thing into a persecution, as if they were little pious pacifists just trying to get along."

You can learn the details about who started the Missouri War and why in the links in my post above in this thread. See also:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1797257,1798554#msg-1798554

Most Mormons are not modern day Danonites. With exception of a few who hunker down in some western states and fancy themselves white militant militia groups at odds with the federal and state governments.

Mormons are not jihadists, suicide bombers, secessionists or anarchists. Most LDS are basically law abiding, family oriented people who are trying to make a living and be good citizens.

When this was written (OP,) was the Old West Frontier Militia of Mormons versus Everyone Else. Them against Us was the mentality. Who was persecuting who? It was a war between sovereign state and a fringe religious faction.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2016 08:09AM by Amyjo.

I'm no Dannonite.


I'm actually a Yoplaitite.

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> This kind of thinking doesn't solve anything and
> it's not going to solve the problem of Islamic
> terrorism.


A concluding statement like this in the topic-creating post should result in this topic being locked and/or deleted. This is not a political site, or a terrorism site. The poster clearly has an agenda and "message" that is not relevant to RfM. It doesn't belong here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2016 10:52AM by nomonomo.