Hello, I'm Tina. You may have seen my post 'Art and Race'. I have another question.. this isn't about or for my paper, it is a much more personal one. First, let me introduce my lerker self. (to skip my introduction scroll to the long black line, because I understand it is not needed, but some may want to know about the random pop-up, non-account person.)

I'm in my early twenties attending college in the Midwest to study Religions and minor in Gender Studies. I am hoping to become a therapist who can both understand a person's religious ideas and beliefs, so that I can better understand how it can effect their mental health and well being. (I am hoping to one day specialize specifically in sexuality and gender-roles in America.)


I grew up Catholic, but at 14 decided not to be Catholic. I instead tried to get an Orthodox Jewish conversion. I studied the orthodox Jewish religion for 6-7 years, before finally getting fed up with the bureaucracy of converting, now a few years later I'm in the church of kindness and reason. :D

I have been researching FLDS and LDS for the past three years. (This all started when the compounds of polygamy were becoming more known in the national media circus.) I was basically researching other cults and traditional life styles to figure out if my ultra-orthodox sect of Judaism was cult-like. (I came to the conclusion all religions are cults.)

LDS has intrigued me for many years, but not in a good way. So I've been reading your posts sporadically over the past year. These articles have helped me tremendously, so Thank You.

_________LONG BLACK LINE_________________


Question.
Does take some explaining.

I read a thread about a woman who was discussing a ceremony in the Temple. She had to wait and wait, then was lead into and then submerged in water.

I am familiar with the idea of christian baptism, and the idea of there being pools.

My question is this... Where only men involved in this ceremony? Could a woman choose to have women aid her into the pool? Or where only priestholding men able to assist her during this cermony?

(okay I lied, lost of questions)

This concept of being submerged (naked or nearly naked) into a pool is common in Judaism. It's the idea of a Mikvah, however, the Mikvah is only run by women. The opposite sex is never in the same room (sometimes the same building) at the same time. It was still awkward to be naked (yes in the mikveh you were 100% naked) infront of other women, but I could never imagine a man being there.

With that information in hand... How does the LDS church defend this overtly non-modest behavior of men seeing a woman barely clothed, then submerged into water? This is not only anti-modesty, but also could be... how do I say this... irresponsible and dangerous? Sexual Harassment or Assult could be easily done. >.> <.< Is the church really that... how do I say... retarded, slow, hindering itself in intellectual and physical development?

I have been dying to ask this question to people who could give me a straight answer.

___________

I truly hope I have not abused this website. I understand I am not, was never, and will never be a Mormon, but you all are the only people I trust when I want real answers about the social aspects of LDS.


Thanks for you time, Tina.

If you are, yes, only men can perform the baptism because they believe only a man has priesthood authority.

But women are not naked. They are wearing a white gown/dress. I wore a white bathing suit underneath mine. Barring a wardrobe malfunction (which I have witnessed - lol), no one sees your private parts.

The baptisms are performed in the temple baptistry which usually has a gallery where everyone waiting is watching you - like an audience. Sexual harassment would be highly unlikely in that situation. It's very rote and mechanical.

say the name and baptize, dunk, do another one, say another name, dunk, do another one over and over again like an assembly line.

It's not sexy, spiritual, or interesting in the least...

It's done in a special font down in the bowels of the temple. Generally it is done by youth groups. They are told it's a "special spiritual experience," but few will tell you that they thought it actually was.

In the old days when there were fewer LDS temples, there would actually be week-long temple caravans full of youth from a stake or region like Portland, for instance. They would get in a motor coach and travel to SLC, then stay with assigned families and do baptisms the next day all day. They'd pack up and head for Idaho Falls, overnight again with a host family and do it all over again before heading to Cardston, Alberta. You get the picture.

You have to sit in a group according to your gender. When I did it, the same thing inevitably happened: They outfit you in a white baggy jumpsuit. You wait a long wait until your number comes up. You walk down the steps into milky white water with too much chlorine, and they rattle off the ceremony really, really fast, over and over again, substituting the name of a different dead person each time. the person baptizing rattles off something like, "(your own name), by the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood, I baptize you for and in behalf of //clerk speaks out the name of the next dead person on the list, person baptizing repeats the dead person's name//, who is dead, in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost." He then literally pushes you down in the water, you come up gasping, eyes burning from all the chlorine. They do that about 20 times per each kid. In the end, depending on number of kids present, you might do 2,000 names and call it a day.

In my case, girls always went before guys, for some reason. At least the Cardston temple did not allow girls to wear bras, so they made the girls wear a cloth cinch with safety pins in the back. At any rate, the girls come up all water-logged and soggy, and when they walk off you can see everything from nipples to pubic hair. Always the same thing happened, at least the way I remember it--a couple of girls get dunked, it becomes obvious all over again that everyone can see through their clothes, so then the leaders tell the boys to turn sideways in their chairs and look away so that they can't see the girls. So you have to turn and look away for an hour or so. But of course, the men doing the baptizing get their eyes full over and over again. Then it's the boys' turn to "enter the waters of baptism," as the leaders like to say.

So it should be a lesson to all youth who do it: If the epitome of the LDS spiritual experience is to travel a couple of hours in church dress (suits/ties or skirts/dresses/nylons--always nylons), change into baggy cotton jumpsuits, sit for hours, let some guys in your ward humiliate you over and over again by looking at your junk, slog soaking wet back to the locker and change back into a suit or dress, and then get puffy, red, stinging eyes to boot, maybe it's worth checking out some church that offers a better epitome of a spiritual experience.

That's my take. No need to trust me. Ask someone else here on the site about their experience.

(And run your spell checker, hon. It's "to lurk," and not "to lerk.")

This ritual varies a little from time to time and from one temple to the next, but you've covered the basics.

Following the baptisms, a each kid sits in a chair for another ritual called confirmation. With hands on their head, the kid represents the dead who were baptized are subsequently confirmed as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I think that a better analogy to the Jewish Mikvah would be the ritual washing/annointing that occurs before one's first temple endowment ceremony. It is performed by someone of the same sex. Someone who's been through it could give you a better idea of what's involved. I do know that the ritual has changed over time.

My experience of temple baptisms for the dead (AKA, Necrodunking) in the London, UK, Temple is a just like Cludgie's - except for the clothing. Boys and girls wore thick heavy (almost like towelling) clothes for the baptisms. no chance of catching even a glimpse of anything 'inappropriate'.

I had to run from the font to the locker room covering myself.

I did "baptisms for the dead" as a teenager. My experience was similar to that of cludgie's. I don't remember having girls there with us boys, though.

As soon as my turn was over, I started wondering why they didn't just list off ALL the names on the list at once, then just dunk me under the water one time. That would be more efficient.

I was nearly drowned because of all the repeated dunking and not being able to catch my breath.

Never volunteered again, for sure.

Only men perform to baptism but both genders are baptised for the dead people. Live girls for dead ones and live boys for dead ones. Wow sounds kind of crazy when you actually write it out. Can you say cult?

Anyway, joseph smith was way into Kabbalah (sp?) so there are probably some similarities with the temple and Jewish traditions.

Also, from my experience as a lad, the dunking was very boring non-sexual, the one performing it speaks very fast and acts like he just wants to get it over with as soon as possible which i did too after about 60 seconds.

Okay I remembered one sexual thing but it was an accident. One of the yw accidentaly came into the room with just a wet "shield" (a see through poncho cloth) on after taking a shower and we all got an eyeful.

I was in Brazil during the temple opening and was called to be an officiator. The Mormon Church was trying to save money and bought a bunch of white jump suits for baptisms. These were thin and flimsy, and much to the chagrin of the temple presidency and the Mormon Church they became transparent when wet (much like a cheap thin, wet white tee shirt). The men doing the baptisms started wearing conventional underwear or other white clothing under their jump suits, but most of the patrons did not get the message. You are suppose to have a "pure" mind in the temple, so it shouldn't matter. As far a purity in the temple, sometime ask an officiator why they need to have locks on the lockers in the changing room if everyone is "pure".

Here is a picture of a little girl being baptized by her father. What she is wearing is typical of a woman being baptized. She would also wear a similar outfit to be baptized in the Mormon temple on behalf of someone who died. It is also stereotypical of a Mormon baptismal font in an LDS chapel where living people are baptized either at age 8 or as an adult convert. Also, this is typical of what the priesthood holder baptizing would wear:

http://mormonfaq.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/baptized-baptism-mormon.jpg

Here is a typical font in a temple where she would be baptized starting at age 12, for someone who died so the dead person could receive "saving ordinances".

http://store.lds.org/images/estore/products/eng/924_62031000_p_600.jpg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2011 02:36PM by CA girl.

I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

Careful! You are allowing over-excitement to cloud your research and your judgement. That's something you should guard against. Or so I was told by a lecturer many years ago. ;o))



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2011 04:24PM by matt.

Matt makes a good point.

Like others have said...the whole situation is as gender segregated as possible.

In the Orlando, Fl temple (2002-2003 or so?) they started handing out underwear for the girls...this bizarre little one-piece teddy. Based on the conversations I heard at the time, too many girls were wearing visible thongs or bikini briefs.

Thank you all for discussing and correcting me. XD Yes I admit that sexual harassment was a bit of a stretch. Thanks again.

Just wanted to let you know that you and I took similar career paths.

I started majoring in psychology, but got mu undergraduate degree at LSU in philosophy and religious studies. I have a masters degree in social work.

I am now a therapist.

Cool interests! Click my name for my email...would love to chat...