Recently there was a law enacted in Russia banning proselytism outside church buildings. This hurts LDS a lot and of course many of exmos are quite happy with the new regulations. As not only Russia but also many other Eastern European countries like Hungary Poland or Slovakia experience similar trends of growing intolerance hatred toward minorities and violence I decided to write this post and explain a little bit to you situation of LDS churches in the region.

I just cannot stand idly as you probably not realizing Eastern European reality write in support of Putin's policies.

But let me start with my own yard that is Poland.

"We had a lot of challenges this week. It has been a little harder than usuall to find new people to teach. We actually had a whole tramwaj (kind of like a trolley but not nearly as cool) of people yelling at us the other day"


Elder Evan Coutu Warsaw Poland Mission blog post from 4/20/2016 http://elderevancoutu.blogspot.com/

In his other posts elder Coutu writes that "fairly often President wouldn't let us go to certain parts of the city because of all the protesting. One of those things where it is only dangerous if you don't use your head."

"Several missionaries who are not white have been kicked off trams or harassed because of their ethnicity."

"So this old lady, fell on the pushy side of the Poles. When we offered to let her go in first, she got rather upset and asked us who we were trying to reach. Things did not improve when we told her we are Mormons and are trying to reach everybody in that building. Well she kindly declined to go in first but did offer to call the police. She told us what we are doing is uncultured, rude, no one would ever talk to us, called the church several less than pleasant names, and it was far too late in the evening anyway (7:15pm). We told her she was welcome to call the police, but that would not stop us since we were not doing anything against the law."


Sorry for long quote but i think it is necessary to understand that


And on and on in one video made for polish tv, female missioanries tell that they had to change apartments because they suspected someone was observing them, other missionary in the same video tells that he was kicked by Poles (unfortunately video is in polish only). http://www.tvn24.pl/czarno-na-bialym,42,m/czarno-na-bialym-z-misja,600742.html

For me it is really sad to watch. I understand this a cult like org but those kids are not aggressive and they hope to save Poles it is not a crime to be naive.


In Russia which is a reason i write this post situation is way worse.

Law banning proselytizing is just a law. Laws have never been of much importance in Russia. They are more of a tool to scare. According to new regulations it is illegal to proselytize even in a private home. So it will be easy for FSB (formerly known as KGB) to invite some mormons to the home that is used by that service and have agents engage them in to a religious discussion. This is easy way to blackmail some people as in Russia state aparatus can do whatever it wishes. It can throw people to jail have them raped there. American missionaries have no reason to fear USA wouldn't let their citizens getting raped. But all those poor and mentally weak Russian converts will live in a state of constant fear.

Criminals, football hooligans and pretty much any agresive people received a signal that the can harass religious minorities. People will get beaten and maybe even killed.

In eastern ukraine that is controlled by forces loyal to Putin protestants were already killed. In Crimea that is by Putin considered part of Russia catholic priests were deported and property owned by churches viewed as unfriendly toward Putin was confiscated.

I do not think u agree violence and persecution is a good way of liberating people in high control religion. It will only make them feel more alienated and probably traumatize them for good.

Jehovah Witnesses are already being arrested their literature is confiscated as extremist materials and Kingdom Halls are being wiretapped. When Putin decided to target LGBT community everyone was appalled, now that religious minorities are feeling wrath of the tsar some are ok with that. Thing is those who target weak do not differentiate today they beat gays tomorrow mormons. It is telling that in Poland, Russia, Hungary and Slovakia all those who are different muslims gypsies Gays and members of relious minorities are targeted. In Poland and Hungary muslims and darker skinned immigrants bare the brunt of violence. In Russia it is mostly JWs gays and Ukrainians.

Please do not be blind towards the violence just because it hurt those we do not like violence is never a good answer.

Below are links to three videos dealing with radicalization in Poland all are in English

http://wyborcza.pl/10,82983,19867989,wstrzasajacy-wideoreportaz-o-napasciach-na-cudzoziemcow-w-polsce.html Press tak to confirm you are over 18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnC-zSdMSRo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tafqx31M0Tw

LDS Missionaries should stay out of countries where they are clearly not wanted and are in danger. It's foolish for them to continue to try to spread their message in such areas.

Exactly- this a a powder keg waiting to explode. If only the church had someone that could have some foresight & vision to see the dangers that others clearly see.

No, I don't in any way condone violence against any minority (or majority).
I also have little to no sympathy for a church that *knows* the situation in particular countries is dangerous, yet continues to send ignorant young kids into harm's way.

I don't agree at all with your claim that "...they hope to save Poles..." No, they don't. They hope to make the whole world believe like they were indoctrinated to believe, and to get more tithe payers into their cult.

While I also don't condone putting religious people in jail for their beliefs, these incidents markedly demonstrate the hypocrisy of the mormon church, which claims to believe in upholding the law and being subject to rulers. When they don't *like* a law, they get around it any way they can, blatantly disobey it, and lie and cheat to be able to still push their nonsense in countries where it's illegal to do so.

A non-hypocritical, reasoned response to these laws and social changes in Eastern Europe would be to pull the kids out, and work diplomatically for changes which would safely allow them back in. Notice that's not what the church is doing -- in their arrogance they're hypocritically defying laws, and putting these young kids in real dangers. Because the cult always comes first.

Great response. The church should use native missionaries in such countries, and if they don't have many, then scholarships to BYU might create some.

Also, mormonism doesn't try to blend in with different cultures. Even American fast-food chains will have different menu items for specific regions or countries. But mormonism wants a one-size fits all, from ban items in the word of wisdom to wearing garments in climates where they're impractical. Putting young naive kids in harms way is par for the course.

About 2000, one of the fanatic missionaries from Alberta got beaten up so badly in Poland that he had to be flown to Germany to have steel plates put in his face. Of course, he went back to finish his mission.

Don't know if this was just another missionary beating or if it had anything to do with the politics and culture of the area.

I served in England Leeds mission in 1970s. I am British myself. We had similar things happened then. Many many times while tracting especially in the evening , people threatened to call police, told us we weren't welcome . We had people abuse us on the bus, telling us to go back to America! I had a vicar tear up a tract infront of me and tell me i was a speck of dirt! It was common to get abuse while out tracting. Youths chasing us throwing stones! We had a missionary punched on the nose!

I think a missionary going door to door telling people their church is wrong will cause resentment! Also in many countries they equate their state religion with patriotism! So they see the church as attacking their country and its history!

That is basically situation in Poland. We are not very religious just like Brits but for many people this religion is connected to patriotism. I am an atheist but always say that ethnically I am catholic. Especially younger generation that is now very patriotic sees it that way.

I love those nationalists with their slogan "GREAT CATHOLIC POLAND" of course they yell it and than have no problem with watching some asian porn. It is a bit like Northern Ireland with it's catholic atheists from IRA. The thing is we have it now, and mormons come just in a wrong time.

So you want the church to admit that ghawd and Holy McGhost do not really have the power to protect their servants in the lion's den?

Not gonna happen. It's win/win for the church. When they come home with their stories of tender mercies, mini-miracles and full on miracles, everyone sighs heavily and praises ghawd.

When there are rapes, kidnappings and deaths, it's part of the ghawd's plan.

That's what being TBM means. What exmo can tell the TBM parents of a mission-deceased or damaged nephew or niece that they were idiots for letting the kid go on the mission? Well, you can say it, but....

It's a shame that tscc does not warn and protect their missionaries better. Your post is needed here but also needed to be heard by Mormon leaders at the highest level as well as leaders such as mission presidents.

I was lucky to first have a mission president on my mission who was sensitive to the needs of his missionaries. He briefed us on local culture and even allowed us to break the handbook rules when they advocated things that disregarded cultural norms or might cause us harm. He was a treasure. When he went home from his mission he was replaced by a mission president who knew nothing about the culture and was clueless as to what was in the best interest, health, and safety of missionaries. We almost had one missionary die to his ridiculous advice. I was glad I had the superior mission president first because it allowed me to put my safety and health ahead of the mission of the church. I was also able to advise other missionaries on how to stay safe and healthy.

Thanks for this post. I certainly hope it reaches the eyes of those who need it most.

I was sent to St. Petersburg for my 2 years of proselytizing several years ago.

None of this hatred or violence is new. It is now just State sponsored.

I was kicked, chased, roughed-up, punched, held at knife point, robbed, pushed, slapped, spit-on, yelled at, sworn at, cornered, shoved, cut, followed, and almost ran over.

I was also arrested and fined a few times. And I am a white male who looks Eastern German.

We had one African American elder in our mission for awhile - things did not go well for him. He was very smart and spoke Russian really well. Accosted constantly though. One time, a group of white-supremacist neo-nazis held him and his comp down and beat them with brass knuckles. He, uh, never really got back to being a missionary after that. Awesome guy, can't blame him.

Racism in Russia is rampant but it has been for centuries. So is domestic abuse. Once, a group of us were roughed-up by nazi skinheads for simply being Americans (not all of us were) who supported multiculturalism and supported "black culture."

Always found it odd to see Russian Nazis marching in Parades and the like. They must've forgotten the loss their grandparents endured to fight tyranny.

I saw American flags burned, anti-american protests, and editorials on how Bush knocked down the twin-towers - or if he didn't - America had it coming regardless. They love our music, movies, and entertainment though - go figure.

On top of all this add radical muslim extremists making threats, inciting violence, and conducting terrorism.

A toxic mix of freezing cold and crazy. Does LDSCorp care about the safety of their own - of course not. "Get out there, get those numbers up, work harder, stop sinning, don't worry about home, you suck and that's why you aren't successful."

None of us returned unchanged.

MrRobot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> None of us returned unchanged.

Amen to that, brother robot.
And not in a good way.

MrRobot Wrote:
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>
>
>
>
> Always found it odd to see Russian Nazis marching
> in Parades and the like. They must've forgotten
> the loss their grandparents endured to fight
> tyranny.
>
>

their grandparents never had a chance to fight tyranny: The russian people were tyrannised by the Tsars and then by the communists. The first truly 'free' generation were not born until after communism fell in the 80s. Now the elders hate the uncertainty of capitalism and preferred the old communism where everyone worked, and they wish to preserve their culture and traditions from foreign influence.

Russia and it's history is nothing like that of the west: it was an autocracy until 1917, then it was a communist dictatorship which began to lose control after the berlin wall crumbled.

We in the west have been 'free' from serfdom for centuries, the russians have been 'free' from serfdom since around 1990s. Comparing our mutual grandparents is like comparing chalk and cheese, or atheists and muslims.

Yes, but I don't think that was the earlier poster's point, whether or not Russia has known true freedom. I think we all know they have been under one dominion or another until the dates you mentioned. I think the point was Russians were slaughtered in huge numbers by the Nazi's relatively recently - just within my mother's lifetime. And they fought heroically to keep the Nazi movement off their homeland, at an unspeakable cost. They didn't fight and die in order for their grandchildren and great-grandchildren to walk it in through the front door.

I agree they fought for their motherland, but not against all tyranny since they were still under the tyranny of communism, and it was believed a better system than the autocracy. I believe the older population still view 'american culture' and the European political Union as a sinister force trying to forge change within their society, away from their traditions.

The OP is raising our awareness of how putin appears to be consolidating power in a similar way to how Hitler did in 1930s germany.

The poster who did not understand 'russian nazis' does not understand russia and it's people if he is comparing our respective grandparents. The russians joined the allies to protect their homeland and to protect communism, whereas the allies fought to save firstly a continent then the whole world from tyranny.

What really troubles me about this russian law is how it might be applied in the future. The communist state knew that the state was held to be the religion of the people, therefore anyone discussing for example atheism, or equality, or suchlike may be accused of spreading a false gospel and detained under this new law.

It is quite harsh.

ain't that some shit. I was simply trying to share my experiences as a mormon missionary in Russia and you come in hot with a warped holier-than-thou history lesson.

I never said that I didn't understand it, I said that I found it odd. Please do not speak for me again.

I met former Soviets who survived the 900 day siege of Leningrad. I can assure you they believed they and their army of husbands, fathers, and sons were fighting tyranny, regardless of their government's motives at the time. The Soviet Union was instrumental in the defeat of European fascism.

And why do you assume my grandparents were American or from any other allied country?

Putin isn't a Nazi, he's a thug. Regardless, not every populace is going to be as progressive as you, your grace. Russia's democratic experiment is still young...I'm confident however, that agitating them and calling them Hitlerish-nazis will convince them to be who you want.

Christ, I knew better than to post my experiences here - I'll never learn.

Take your assumptions to a history forum, know it all.

no need to be so rude - you were the one to mention nazis, not I, although I did reference a notable historical dictator to provide comparison. You posted saying you did not understand something, I posted to provide more information for the insular americans here who (unlike you, of course) do not know much about the rest of the world (believe me, I have met many of them). This is how a public forum works.

I am actually offended that you would compare russian survivors of WWII with my grandparents in your original post - my grandparents and their counterparts in soviet union fought for two completely different ideologies: one was a regime that told a person how to think and behave (bit like 'the brethren') and the other was a regime that encouraged independence, self reliance and innovation.

It does not matter than they were against the same foe - they did not fight for the same cause: one group fought for the right to be controlled, the other to be free from controls. The old saying "mine enemy's enemy is my friend" comes to mind.

Please refrain from advising posters to visit other forums - it is most unmannered, you know. Instead, perhaps you could address my fears concerning this law as I stated in my previous post:

Since the russian people already believe an ideology is the same as a religion, this law could be used to repress many differing points of view, including 'equality and diversity', or if anyone discusses how darwinism proposes atheism, etc.

Whether or not laws are enforced unilaterally (as noted as 'not enforced' by original poster) this law could be used in draconian ways to eliminate 'enemies of the state', in a similar way other dictators are using or have used similar laws.

MrRobot

Very enlightening post. I really appreciate your insight. You said "none of us returned unchanged". Have you kept contact with companions and did your collective experiences push them closer or further away from the church?

Gatorman

Mr Robot
Please see my inquiry above

Gatorman

Ok so I see it. Most of you are saying that church should pull those kids out of there. I would say more they should stop sanding kids anywhere. The problem is it just will not happen. This is the logic of cults. We are persecuted it is a proof we need to strengthen our efforts. In former communist bloc JWs were simply put to jail because they refused military service. Thousands were in gulags. Anyone think it moved the JW leadership.

They care they do not care does not matter. The thing is I do not want kids being traumatized and having to take meds for PTSD simply because it was not good time when they served in my country.

Yep I hope LDS and JWs change their policies and start giving a damn about these youth. And I also hope my folks stop harassing them. One does not exclude the other.

JWs do not send mishies to Poland. Missionary effort is done by locals. And they know it is against Polish culture to bother people on the streets and when you go home door to door reaction will not be that aggressive. Makes a difference? Yes makes a difference.

LDS is not trying to that. They send Mericans from Utah southern California or wherever who do not know the culture language and even dress in a way that makes them easy target. Women especially can dress modestly and look like the crowd. But they do not, because they are knew, they do not know and the leadership does not give a damn.

But it of course does not explain rude behavior from my fellow Poles. You just can not yell at people. You can not throw someone off the bus cause he is dark skinned and belongs to strange religion.

As for Russia situation is a bit different. In Poland government does whatever they can to protect LDS mishies (cause they mericans and we are your best allies, some merican diplomats are mormon, and last but not least we do not want to be in American newspapers because some football hoolligans stabbed some blond LDS missionary). In Russia government is oh so happy to see Merican cult members being harassed. They have no problem planting stuff in JW kingdom halls and putting them in Jails. When the time comes for it to be good for Russia, lets say FBI catches some Russian spy, it might happen that some unidentified guys (no one will ever find them of course and there will be no monitoring) pulls out a knife and slaughters these two female mishies. The signal will be sent, not to mess with FSB. America will do some retaliations too. But really I do not think it will matter anymore for the dead girls.

"She told us what we are doing is uncultured, rude, no one would ever talk to us, called the church several less than pleasant names, and it was far too late in the evening anyway (7:15pm)."

This lady ain't no fool. And she's right as rain.

Thank you for writing this thread and for sharing your information. Missions at this stage in life for young people is so wrong, and I wish there was some way to make it against the law. When a person is bombarded by the indoctrination that this is what God needs him to do and this person is young, he has little or no chance to see anything but what is being stuffed down his throat.

Over and over these youth are thrust in life and death dangerous situations, as well as situations that can damage them in their physical and emotional well-being. They are not prepared by the cult for what is before them on these missions. In fact, I often wonder if the cult bothers to inform themselves of the whole situation they are throwing these young people into. If I had to take a bet, I would say Hell No! they are not, because of the church's past tract record. If they do not know, then when they are sued they get to claim ignorance. This is how they operated.....deceitfully.

Vladiepoo is making a lot of hay out of demonizing America and fanning the flames of Russian nationalism. Until he's gone, TSCC would be well advised to lay low and stop playing these dangerous games. I think the US embassy should order these boys home and save everybody a lot of trouble.

Bradley the thing is that CIA probably uses some older (retirees) missioaries in Russia as its helpers (i mean why wouldn't they) plus many american high ranking members in Russian church also might be from time to time used when services need it. LDS is closly connected with army CIA and government. USA has special place in minds of mormons and as mormons so often choose scouting, than army or learn foreign languages during missions, USA and LDS see themselves as friends. One is going to help the other. Of course FSB knows it and will not ressist from using violence against LDS when it feets them.

Of course ordinary Russian members are kept in the dark but they are the easiest and weakest target. The FSB has no problem in harassing raping or killing some "sectarians" as they call them. To be honest LDS leadership will not cry either. We are not talking about some powerfull Utah families paying millions in tithes. We are talking about some lost minds people who needs support and are not very influential. They are just simple pawns and no player cries after loosing some pawns.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2016 10:02PM by kolonko.

If people in Eastern Europe are upset with Mormon missionaries, then perhaps the church would be better served by having the missionaries do genuine charity work in those communities instead of having the missionaries constantly shoving their religion down other people's throats.

As for the Polish woman who didn't want the missionaries in her residence building, I don't blame her. I don't like soliciting strangers in my building, either.

I don't condone physical violence, but I think that people have a right to express their upset with how the Mormon church does business.

We live in the information age. Churches have dozens of ways to reach out to their communities in order to invite newcomers. They have at their disposal radio, TV, internet, fliers, posters, and the mail. The churches can host fairs, bazaars, festivals, dinners, summer bible camps, non-sectarian scout troops, after school clubs, mentors, and all sorts of other things. They don't need to stalk and harass people in the privacy of their own homes or on the street.

According to my Slovak friend, the same sort of right-wing nationalism is taking place in Slovakia. Poland for Poles, Slovakia for Slovaks, Britian for Brits, Israel for Jews...it's all part of the same nationalistic disease.

And we know where it leads, if we but bother to remember...

Human

Let me add MOON FOR MOONIES.

Radicalism and conflicts grow in time of crisis. After 1929 we had the same, Nazis in Germany and what many tend to forget there was a spike in lynchings in the South. Now we have Trump going after Latinos an Muslims, National Front in France and beatings of mormons in eastern europe. Damn it is funny that those white and delightesome Utah mormons are being discriminated and oppressed for being members of minority. I mean it would be funny was not it for ptsd they will have after they go back to Provo.
And for me violence should never be the answer we should rather bombard enemies with politeness and friendliness. That's a nuke they do not expect.

I speak Polish having learned the language a million years ago at DLI. I also spent time in Poland in 1995 as the country was opening up after years spent behind the Iron Curtain. It was a lovely, optimistic time to visit. I think Polish language, culture, and history are wonderful. I have always wanted to go back and bring my boyfriend to introduce him to the country and region as a whole. Boyfriend is multi-ethnic and could pass as just about any ethnicity to include Middle Eastern. I have been watching the tide turn towards nationalism/fascism here and in Europe with alarm. I now don't think it would be a good idea to visit Poland anytime soon, particularly with him, and writing this makes me feel very, very sad. Our world is turning hateful at a frightening speed.

I don't go to where others live and then tell them how to live and what to think. That is wrong, in my opinion.

I resent others coming to my barrio and telling me that THEY know what God thinks, that THEY know what's best for me.

Mormon missionaries deserve all the abuse they receive, and more. If they are naive and arrogant to go where they aren't wanted, that's their problem.

I applaud the governments and their citizens who are pushing back against the tyrannical Mormon church.

No one deserves the abuse they receive at the hands of their own church. For all my negative experiences on my mission, the ones from the mission home hurt the most.

When I was 18 life was kicking my butt, and it had nothing to do with a church.

Life is hard. Plenty of Mormon missionaries have it far easier than the people whose minds they're trying to control. After two years in a mission they can return to safe and secure homes where there's food on the table. This is not true for the overwhelming majority of the people where I live (South America), who do not have enough to eat (I know; I feed them), and to whom the missionaries preach and from whom the missionaries seek to extort 10% for the sake of the evil myth they serve.

I serve the missonaries who come to our barrio. Three are dining with us next week. I'll do everything in my power to alert them to their own personal failure, for which they must take personal responsibility.

They haven't had any success there since the initial burst in the early 1990s. Putin wants them out and he is a nasty autocrat.

I would not want my child to spend much time in Russia, let alone as a representative of a hated church that symbolizes American cultural imperialism.

As they are showing with this ugly display over the Navajo child abuse case, LDS, Inc. does not put children above its own corporate interests. These are people's teenage children you are sending into the bear's den. Pull them out until it is safe for them to be there.

Topping for MrRobot
Hoping for response to inquiry

Gatorman