I'm a Mormon constantly swaying between not wanting the church to be true, but believing it is and wanting the church to be true, but believing it's not. I have read a lot of stuff on this site, and about 10% sounds very convincing, while the other 90% sounds like it came from a 12-year-old. I am open to whatever facts, opinions, and experiences you have. Please tell me so I can make an informed decision. I don't want to leave just because I feel silly staying, but I also don't want to stay just because I feel guilty leaving.

Don't stay or leave because of feelings. Study the facts and make your decision without bias.

1. Read the essays.
2. Read the CES letter.
3. Ask yourself if you can believe the Book of Mormon which the church now admits was "translated" by Joseph Smith by putting a seer stone in a hat.
4. Ask yourself if you can trust a "prophet" who not only married a fourteen year old but married dozens of women including women married to men he had sent on missions to get them away.
5. Read or watch the temple endowment sessions before 1990 and ask yourself if you can accept the penalties in them and accept that the ceremony was taken from Masonry.
6. Ask yourself why the present "prophet" has never had a revelation.

I really like the CES letter. I honestly didn't know it existed until now, but it's great. Thanks for the advice.

Start here:

http://cesletter.com/

Then come back and ask questions, go follow up on references, and make up your own mind.

The church isn't "true." You know that. You wouldn't be "constantly swaying" if you didn't. Gold plates supposedly magically found by a convicted con-man, that nobody got to actually see or touch ('cause god would kill them), written in a language that never existed, describing vast civilizations of which no trace of any kind has ever been found? Really?

And a "book of Abraham" that was claimed to be translated from actual documents written by the hand of Abraham, that are actually 2nd century CE Egyptian funeral papers, and say nothing about Abraham or anything Smith said, and which include images of an Egyptian god with an erect penis? Really?

"Secret" temple rituals ripped off from the Freemasons, which include secret handshakes and passwords to get into heaven, and which used to include (until 1990) death gestures showing different ways your life could be taken if you revealed the secrets? Really?


Come on, you know it's a crock. Now go do your homework to prove it to yourself.

(btw, I was born in the church, went through the temple, did a mission. I'm not some "anti" guy who was on the outside)

Wow. Thanks. The CES letter is exactly what I need. I haven't finished it yet, but what I've read so far is perfect.

But anyone with an open mind, access to the internet and a modicum of curiosity will see the fraud of Mormonism in fairly short order. Convince THYSELF!

The only way to convince yourself is to do the work. Right before I ended up leaving, I was up to my eyeballs in learning all I could about the church to become a better gospel doctrine teacher and ended up studying myself into doubting. I stuffed those doubts, but they were there. Everyone's experience is going to be different. In the end, you have to give yourself a reason to go. We can't do that for you.

Hey, don't discount the 12 year old factor here. It's actually pretty fun.

The facts are readily available. The only thing you have to do is decide if you want to be led by them, or by your feelings. Once that decision has been made, the rest is easy. Just remember: wanting something to be true doesn't make it so.

To give you a little background on me, I was raised in a good Mormon family. I was taught all the Mormon story’s about how the Indians were the descendants of the laminites. How the Nephites were more righteous then the Laminites and God cursed them with a dark skin, and then turned their skin white again. . (2nd Nephi 5:21). I loved the stories as a young kid about all the battels and wars between the two groups. It was a great childhood. As I became a teen I could in no way obey all the rules. To me God was a list of don’t dos.
Now that I am older I understand. Moroni 10:32 states Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you… If a Mormon admits he is in sin it is an admission that he has not denied himself of all ungodliness. The fact is no Mormon will ever make it to the celestial kingdom to become a god, D&C 25-15 says keep the commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.
With the stander of perfection mandatory for the grace of God to be sufficient I refused to go to church. I went for the next 15 years without any form of God. I started to think about God and was scared of hell. I was listening to a radio show with a Christian minister and he led me to Christ (Romans 10:9-11). So now I have a problem, I just excepted Christ as my Lord and became a born again Christian (John chapter 3). I needed to do some studding. I began to read the bible, listen to preachers on the internet, watch documentaries, I studied other religions including Islam.
I prayed to God and told him I would go wherever he lead me even if it was to the LDS church. I studied the book of Mormon to see if it was truth. The first red flag that I found was in the field of architectural evidence. It has been almost 170 years since Joseph Smith first published the Book of Mormon. To date, there is not one artifact that can be identified as being made by the people of the Book of Mormon. Also, there is no official map designating the location of any Book of Mormon city. Joseph Smith preserved an example of the supposed writing on the plates. No other sample of such writing has ever been found in the Americas. The Mormons point to the great Mayan ruins to establish that there was at one time a great civilization in southern Mexico and Guatemala. However, the Mayan had their own pagan religion and history that has no connection to the supposed Book of Mormon people.
With this information everything about Mormonism started to fall apart. Since then I have learned about the true character of Joseph Smith. He was arrested as a young boy for “glass looking” witch is a form of crystal ball gazing and conning people about his ability to find buried treasure. I learned that he had around 34 wives, some of them were as young as 14, some were already married, and he even married sisters and a mother daughter pair. (D&C says second wives need to be virgins) Most of the time he lied to his wife Emma about his affairs.
The amount of information that was stacking up against the Mormon Church became staggering. I will give you a list of items and will leave it up to you to do the research. DNA of native Americans do not match the claim that they came from Israel. The book of Abraham is a complete fraud. The account of the vision in the grove has changed and altered numerous times. Many false prophecies of Joseph smith, including D&C 84 about a temple that was to be built in that generation. Alma 7:10 claims that Jesus would be born in Jerusalem not Bethlehem. Extreme racism in the early church. Doctrine of the blood atonement. Free masonry, nearly 4000 changes to the first printing of the book of Mormon, and it goes on and on.
The biggest problem I now have with the Mormon religion is the lies about Jesus being the brother of Lucifer. The lie that you can become a God yourself someday. The lie about how you are saved by grace after all you can do. The lie that you need the Mormon church to be with God after you die. The lie that the bible has been corrupted and mistranslated. I tried to explain but the truth is you need to seek out truth for yourself. “The truth will set you free.” Acts 17 talks about the Bereans and how they were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

I'm a nevermo but am here because this site addresses many similar issues I dealt with in a Christian cultish group.
Could you tell me why I would/ should believe in Mormonism?
It doesn't seem to have any proof others don't use to support other religions.

Mormon Think might be a good site for you to peruse. It has both the faithful Mormon position along with well-referenced facts about the church's history so that you can make the comparison on your own.

http://www.mormonthink.com/

The CES letter linked above is another good source.

If well-referenced facts don't persuade you, there is not much we can do to help you. Mormonism tends to rely on feelings, not facts. But the facts do not support the truth claims of the church.

Besides the historical aspects of the church that others have suggested you research, I think it's important to take a look at the way the church operates today. If there is a loving God as the LDS church claims, would he run his church the way the LDS church does?

Would God rather spend money on a mall or property than help people?

Would God exclude non-Mormons or other unworthies from seeing their loved ones get married?

Would God withhold saving ordinances from people who can't afford tithing?

Would God rather you pay tithing than feed or clothe the children he entrusts you with?

Would God care what kind of underwear you wear?

Would God need all of those who speak for him to be wealthy men?

Would God exclude those from joining his church who can't break their coffee habit?

Would God excommunicate people who ask him tough questions?

Would God really care how many earrings you have, that you have a tattoo or that you like to wear sundresses?


My point is that if the LDS church is God's one true church, God couldn't be a bigger jerk.

These are what the Bible calls "By their fruits are they known". Add to this list of modern day problems with the "fruit" of Mormonism, the several historical fruits...like polygamy, an affront to women, not to mention demeaning.
The LDS racism...blacks not allowed priesthood or temple and generally, skin color as a "curse". AND, let's not forget the bigotry of LDS Inc. going on right now RE: LGBT AND THEIR CHILDREN!

When you add all these "fruits" together (and several others)
you have to ask yourself if the God you love, adore and worship could ever be the author of any of it?
IMO, even a half-assed god would never be associated with any of it.

It's not just blacks who weren't allowed in the priesthood. It's women too. And they still aren't. People go ape over a hijab, but Catholics, Mormons, many Christian groups, get a pass on their discrimination against women.

Discrimination against women was the major reason why I left the Catholic church.

I will admit that I also 'primarily' studied my way out of Mormonism. That is the easiest and lowest cost way to find out the 'church and all other religions' are just big scams or social clubs.

However, after you find out the 'church' is a scam ---- where does that leave you and your past beliefs? So I needed to find out the 'truth' about 'God type stuff'.

I suggest you take the advice above 1st to 'logically' know the church is not true.

As far as what is true ----- I suggest the following.

Afterlife and other God-type stuff -- either (1) go to a medium and have them connect to a 'passed' relative and try to get some questions answered after them providing some 'validation' they are connecting with your relative; (2) do a 'guided meditation on past lives' ---- there are a number on the internet that work; (3) pay for a past life regression from a certified hypnotist that has done these type of regressions and see if they can also ask you when in a 'between life ---spirit world' questions about God-type stuff.

Mediums and hypnotists can be expensive as some of this type of information may take a few hours/sessions to get; however, it should cost a lot less than tithing for as long as you live and 'your time and effort' in supporting a scam!

Good luck!

Better yet, save the expense and get a few good Modern Evidence books. Raymond Moody, Ian Stevenson, Jim Tucker, Hemendra Banerjee. You probably can't remember past lives but you can learn from those who do.

I am a nevermo (have never been Mormon) but I'm curious about the 90% that you say sounds like it came from a 12 year old? And what is the 10% that convinces you the church is not true?

Probably the Boner! ...and me...

ETA: I hate us!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/12/2016 10:12PM by elderolddog.

12-year-old? Am not! PBTTTHH!

Over the years I have not answered emails from Mormons such as LaFanda May. This person wants to be spoon fed. LaFanda May is not ready for the truth in my humble opinion and is still locked in the Mormon mindset. Someone who sincerely desires to learn will have the initiative to search for his or her self. Great resources were listed above. I doubt they will be read by LaFanda May. When it was stated "convince me", it was clear to me the question was not sincere.

Thanks for giving, I assume a her, what can start her on her journey. I hope I am wrong and she will search out the truth.

I agree. It's up to each person to figure out what THEY believe. I think it's a Mormon mindset to expect someone ELSE to provide neatly packaged answers. But one of the most important parts of developing as a person is to learn to think for yourself, and trust your OWN judgement.

Some suggestions I would make to the OP:

Let the evidence be your guide. And choose unbiased sources, if you can. If you can't, then see if you can sort the facts from the opinion, by looking at the documentation they provide, preferably original sources, so you can reach your OWN conclusions. Don't have a goal to prove the church true OR false. Just figure out what's real, what's not, what is speculation. And really watch out for manipulation (people who try to scare you with guilt, fear, question your character, or make emotional appeals).

And remember that there are millions, even billions of people who believe with every fiber of their beings that THEIR religion is the one and only true church. If feelings were evidence of truth, then it would be a better bet to find the faith with the very most, and most ardent believers.

I concur

...and hasn't concluded that Mormonism is false, then she deserves to stay Mormon.

The very fact that Joseph Smith, and church leaders after him, have had to alter so many scriptural verses, and disavow so many doctrinal statements over the years, should prove to anybody with half a brain that the whole thing is false. True "revelations from God" should not have to be revised or deleted.

Her comment about 90% of the posts on this BB sounding as though they came from a 12-year-old was kinda funny. Has she ever sat through a Mormon fast and testimony meeting and listened to the juvenile comments and blubbering?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/2016 10:52AM by randyj.

You'll know when you know. You will convince yourself. All I can do is tell my life story as a warning.

We're not evangelists. You'll have figure it out like we did. There no lack of evidence against the church, but you have be able to go where the facts lead you. Good luck. Sounds like you already know but afraid of what that means.

Yeah... It's probably not the knowledge part, but rather the consequences part.

Convince yourself.

This is it.

It didn't take RfM to convince me. I was convinced years before finding this online venue.

No, your journey is one you must make alone. If you want support and information you will find it not only here, but myriad other sources. You can learn from the best, or just the facts.

Sandra and Jerald Tanner were my first introduction away from Mormonism after I had read some of the early books written about the authentic history of Joseph Smith and the making of his fringe religious cult that was born of Americana folklore.

There are so many resources available online and in bookstores, you just have to decide where do you want to start?

This place provides some resources. It isn't an end all or be all.

Good luck and best wishes on your journey! :)

There are at least several ex-Mo sites online to help those leaving Mormonism find suppport and encouragement. Wish I'd known of these places sooner than I did. But I can claim my leaving Mormonism not based on anything I was spoonfed, but from doing my own legwork. You'll gain more understanding that way, and it's much more satisfying knowing you figured it out for yourself.

What others tell you works for them but might not speak to you. Use your own brain. You can do it!

Even after you've studied and gathered all the facts you can about the church, only you can decide what information matters.

I concluded after years of study that the church's negatives outweigh any of its positives and I don't want to associate with it any longer.

I have shared a lot of information about the church that I've discovered with a family member. She says that the negative information doesn't matter to her and continues to be an active member. That's her choice. She gets to decide what to do with the information she has, but at least she's making a decision with the facts clearly in front of her.

First you have to prospectively decide, what are the criteria for determining that the church is false? In other words, where do I set the bar? Am I setting the bar for falsification higher for the LDS church than I am for other organizations that make improbable truth claims? What are the criteria for determining whether I should continue as an active member?

If you don't decide these criteria in advance, no amount of information will help you make a decision.

Joseph Smith's big claim was that he could (by the power of
God) translate ancient languages. The BOM and BOA are just two
examples of this claim of his.

We don't have the plates, but we do have much of the papyri
that Joseph Smith "translated" the BOA from. Apologists have
gone to great lengths to muddy the waters on whether the
translation manuscripts are what they obviously are--Joseph
Smith's "translation" of the sen-sen papyrus into the Book of
Abraham.

But I think there is an air-tight case against these apologetic
claims and it's right in the Book of Abraham itself.

Parts of facsimiles 2 and 3 contain Egyptian hieroglyphs that
are identified by Joseph Smith and then their supposed meaning
given by Joseph Smith. No "scribes did it" or "missing scroll"
silliness, just Joseph Smith, himself, telling the world what
text he's interpreting and what it says in English.

Now the interesting point is that every time he does this he
gets it completely, 100% WRONG.

So here's where it stands. Everywhere we can test Joseph
Smith's ability to translate ancient languages he fails
miserably. However, we are supposed to believe him on all the
cases where we can't test him.

Yeah right.

Here's a detailed look at one of Joseph Smith's spectacular
fails:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1569142,1569142#msg-1569142

Very well said. The translation of the B of A was the smoking gun for me.

Also, I would have been helped along on my journey if I had read this book sooner. I didn't find it until AFTER I had left:
https://www.amazon.com/Insiders-View-Mormon-Origins/dp/1560851570

An interesting study can be made of the d and c as these supposed revelations came out...circumstances at the time coincide with joes opportunistic character...such as gawd destroying emma if she wouldnt tolerate his extrabedular activities...or the nauvoo mansion servant joe shud have while others lived in shacks...much like the 1978 revelation to allow blacks to have the preisthood...you can pretend it was gawd and not social pressure that caused it...believe as you wish...you also might look at the timeline when joe was diddling a teen age nanny in the barn...about three years before the great keys were received...call it what you wish...i call it taking absolute advantage of his position over the vulnerable around him...voila tscc...look also at how joe propositioned other women such as nancy rigdon who rejected him...he then publicly besmirched their reputation...nice guy this joe the restorer...of what??...angel with a drawn sword my ass....if your ok with the zina huntington jacobs fiasco you should hurry along back to church

OP, You asked for something from a group of strangers, coupled with an insult to them.

By the time you are able to understand how inappropriate that was, and why good and decent people let it go, responding with sincere concern for your well-being anyway, you will have convinced yourself.

I agree with Erik.

I would like to add that perhaps the "age" at which you judged the posts was not as much an issue with the posts, as it was an issue with the comprehension of the reader.

There's a difference between an insult and a joke. I'd say a good 80% sounds like it came from a 12 yr old, but it's worth it for the 20% that's good, quality, accurate information. LaFanda, if you want to know the truth, research it out. These people have given you good information and good sources, but in the end, no one can convince you, but yourself.

LaFanda, should you decide to remain in the church, may I remind you that you have less than three weeks to complete your visiting teaching for the month. Oh, and check your ward's cleaning schedule; today is Saturday, after all.

Also, you might want to learn how to make large batches of homemade donuts, just in case Russell Nelson's family runs short during General Conference.

I'm a RM and married-in-the-temple BIC who is now an ex-mormon.

I have seen a lot of arguments but I really like this talk.

Please watch.

https://youtu.be/GAGasQ7j_ZI

Convince yourself.

That is your job as an adult.

Whatever you decide, that will be your reality because we don't see the world as it is but as we are. If you want "the church" to be "true" then it will be true. As for me, I would rather follow the evidence.

Think about this... Would you rather have your destiny be in your own hands or the hands of strangers you've never met??? That includes LDS General Authorities. Do they really have YOUR best interests in mind? Do I?

You need to decide what is in your best interest and live with the consequences of your decisions but if you're staying because you feel intimidated to leave then maybe that should be telling you something. Would God's true church make you feel guilty for leaving?

When I first came to RfM, I thought a lot of people were harsh. Surely the church couldn't be that bad. Well actually, once you can see the church from the outside there's plenty of bad to go around. Thus the harshness.

The BoA is totally debunked. The BoM is tied to The Late War by a data mining study that pretty conclusively shows that much of the BoM was cobbled together from phrases found in The Late War. See https://wordtreefoundation.github.io/thelatewar/

And if you look deeper, there are no memes in the BoM that weren't circulating in either word or print in Joseph's locale. A huge number of claims to ancient knowledge have been debunked. If you put that together with the known character of Joseph Smith, who by credible historical accounts used his talent for manipulation and character assassination quite effectively (would a man of God do that?), the picture that comes into sharp focus is that Joseph and his co-conspirators made it all up. And once you see it, you can't unsee it. A life of crime does not a religion make. Or at least, it shouldn't.

What finally convinced me was reading "Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine, which was ironically written 3 decades before the church was formed and never mentions the Mormon church.

The Mormon church is nothing new. It uses the same deceitful model that has been used throughout history. Religion only survives by deceit.

What I'd like to know, Lafanda May, is are you any relation to Kip Dynamite?!

;)

Distantly.

There has been a great deal of thoughtful response to your challenge. Many people care enough to share their thoughts and offer advice.

The only response you have is a one word post about a movie reference.

That's it?

Rather telling, no?

Um no. I've responded to a few posts already and I'm trying to look through the sources and advice that people are giving me before I respond. It's interesting how some people on here just want to critisize everything I do, while others are genuinely trying to help.

I like your username, no matter.

It's catchy, and has feminine mystique.

Posts are time stamped.

Just sayin'...

Here is what I did. I prayed and read my scriptures daily as I sought the answer to my question "what is the doctrine?" But rather than praying for "is it true" I prayed to help me find Truth. I also prayed to be protected from self confirming information, to look at things from both sides of the argument, and to be open to whatever I might find. I did this for six months. Prayed. Read my scriptures. Studied an hour or two going to primary sources (e.g., scans of the versions of the BoM etc. etc.). Every answer I found inevitably exposed more questions to be answered. I did the work. Here I am. You need to do the work. But remeber, what has been seen cannot be unseen. Do the work.

Now, if some tells me I just need to pray and read the scriptures I can say yes and relate what I did per the above. So just do the work. I can honestly say I have no doubts about where I am right now. My eyes have been opened. I am happier. I am more mentally healthy. I am more satisfied with my life. I am confident telling myself that I am a good man, a good husband, and a good father. As a Mormon I could not tell myself these things.

Do the work. The path will be hard. Traumatic even.

All you need to make your decision is out there. Asking somebody else to prove it to you is not only intellectually lazy it is a waste of time. Personally, I don't care what you do. I ain't got a dog in this fight. I made my decision now you go likewise.

How can you, in good conscience, allow your children to sing the praises of Joseph Smith, knowing he abused his power to claim his followers wives and teenage daughters as his own?

You should stay. Leaving requires looking into the facts and evidence without letting feelings determine your decision. That alone is almost impossible for most folks. If you were up for that, you would be doing so right now instead of asking for exmormon's opinions.

Convince us why you should stay.

What I can appreciate about trolls' insincere questions, is the way they gather so many good answers and resources for those sincerely seeking help.

Trolls can never get a break. Poor trolls.

Thanks. I'm glad I could help.

You are between a rock and a hard place - you sound like you must figure out who you are because you can't figure out who - or what - the church is (doing to, with, or in your life... till death do yo [finally] part), and why!

Keep moving forward. You'll pass Mormonism before you know it.

Maybe you need "convincing" in a different way.

I was just hanging onto Mormonism, because I believed in Christ and the Bible and the (plagiarized) parts of the BOM that corroborated the bible.

I also was brainwashed into thinking, "Mormonism is the best way to raise children." (This is a lie. In our Mormon-dominated neighborhood, the Mormon kids did not turn out well at all.)

Then, one day, I asked my children why they hated church so much, yet they were happy to go to church with their Lutheran and Methodist friends. My children then proceeded to tell me of the many instances of child abuse they had suffered at the hands of Mormon adult priesthood leaders, over several years. I won't go into detail here, but--wham! As soon as my children opened up (the leaders had threatened them not to tell), it was over! Like a flash of lightning--my heart knew! I said, "You don't ever have to go there again!" And we didn't.

At that point, I didn't care whether the BOM hoax was about the Golden Plates or about the stone-in-the-hat. I didn't care if the cult was back-pedaling and admitting JS was a polygamist. I didn't care about polygamy in heaven, or that only temple forever-families would go to the highest degree of a fake heaven.

All I cared about is that my beloved children (good kids, good students) were being abused in an evil cult! They were crying, telling me what had happened to them--all of them--the boys and the girls alike. All I knew is that the abuse must END.

Here's a challenge for you, if you are wavering, wondering if the Mormon church is right for YOU, personally:

I challenge you to not attend church at all for two months. Politely, nicely, find substitutes for all your callings, so you will be completely church-free. Don't lie or give any explanations or excuses--because the Mormons will do everything they can to keep you attending continuously. They know that most people don't come back. Then, enjoy your life! See how it feels. Do fun things with your family on Sunday. Are you happier without the Mormon church running your life? That's the big question.

You don't have to give up God, or Christ, or Family, or morals, or decency, or volunteerism. The Mormon church doesn't own any of that.

There is one more challenge, if you are still indecisive:
Go ahead and resign, and see how nasty the Mormons really are.

The bishopric, the home teachers, the teachers of a special borderline Sunday school class, and neighbors came to my house, unannounced. I made the mistake of letting them in, at first. They would threaten me that God would withdraw His blessings. They said I would get sicker if I didn't attend all the meetings, that I would fail financially if I didn't pay tithing. They threatened my children that our family would be separated "pass by each other as strangers" in the Hereafter. Worst of all, they threatened that my children would fail in life! When my kids left for college, and I was living alone,Mormon men would come my house late at night, in groups of two and three, looking for my boys, and trying to find out their addresses and information. They would bang on my door, even though my lights were out. I lived alone, and they knew it. They would not stop banging, until I finally had to yell through the door, that I was not going to open my door late at night, and if they didn't stop banging, I would call the police.

Look at the behavior of the Mormons themselves. Try taking a vacation from them. Try resigning from their cult.

There's nothing "Christian" in their religion or their behavior.

Mormons hate/fear/disrespect (choose your own word) gays, women, divorced people, dark-skinned people, teens who refuse to go on a mission, married couples with no children, men who wear colored shirts to church, women with a third piercing--yeah, the hatred goes on and on, and at some point touches on YOU and your family.

Ask yourself, "Where's the love?"