Well, we recently moved to a place with a lot of Mormons and have been debating joining the church. I know why people love it, but I want to j ow why they hate it? I'd like to make friends, not a crowd just a few like minded women. My husband despises all religion and I can't say I'm normally a fan myself. The truth is, it seems like the LDS church might be a place to meet like minded women friends. Sometimes I'm not sure where I belong! A little about me: I'm mostly a stay at home wife, I sell my art pretty actively but mostly tend to the home and do all of the errands and cooking.( Before the judgers come out No, I'm not oppressed I like being taken care of It's a role I've chosen and any money I earn we try to save. Yes,we have life insurance and disability insurance). Anyhow, we don't drink alcohol, caffeine, or do drugs . We don't watch porn. We're very into clean living and would love to join a community of people looking to do good. The reason we're not int that stuff isn't biblical, but because it doesn't seem to do much good. We're also working toward going off grid in the next few years and I was told the church is involved in provident living practices. In ma y ways it seems the perfect fit. All of that said, we also have tattoos and don't want kids, so maybe everyone would hate us (haha).I'd like to join a community with people of shared values. Also not to be discounted are the potential business connections for my husband. In some ways I feel it could be a win-win? I guess my question is if not the church what would be a nice community for people like us to join?

I have met some grand people of all ages doing animal rescue. I guess it sounds silly but saving little fur or feather babies and finding them furever homes means a lot.

Why not try a REAL church! Hint: LDS is NOT it.

If you have children, some of the church teachings will screw them up big time. Have you heard about "worthiness interviews" with completely untrained men who are called Bishops?

These men will meet one on one with your child and ask inappropriate questions like, "Do you touch yourself?" to see if they are "morally pure" as well as other more inappropriate questions.

Please read this board for several days/weeks and get a feel for all the harm TSCC (this so called church) does to families.

Do you wonder why exmormons need a recovery board?
When most people leave a church, they just go.

It seems that when you finally see through the lies you have been taught and the sinkhole of time and money you have invested in what is a provable fraud, you actually do need a place to vent and recover.
Do your research!
Best wishes.

Tattoos and no desire for children is going to foment 'judgment' on the part of the Relief Society, which is where the females are allowed to mingle together.

Despite the tattoos and the no kids situation, you could probably make friends with mothers your age, but the situation is certain to be complicated by the attention your husband will draw, and his reaction to it.

See, mormons are paternalistic, in a bad way: misogyny. There's a great scene in I-don't-recall-what-movie, in which one character from a completely misogynistic culture says to an American, at an American dinner party, "Why do you allow your woman to speak, and to dress like a prostitute?" Mormon women, once married, are not encouraged to have minds of their own.

On top of that, they will want to baptize both you and your husband. Oh my, yes! You might play along, but unless your husband can be certain that he'll be getting a lot of business out of it, he might not...enjoy the process.

You're putting away money, right? What's it going to do to your budget to fork over 10% of your gross income to the church? Of course you don't have to. The only penalty is that you can't go to the temple or get choice 'callings', but that's actually a plus. Your lady friends won't hold it against you...

Give some cheerful hellos to your neighbor ladies and you're sure to get an invite to attend your local ward. Don't make the mistake of making a friend in another ward! You're only supposed to attend the ward within whose boundaries you reside.

If you can go tomorrow, do so! Take notes then come back and get our POVs. If nothing else you'll be amused!

If you aren't sold on joining the Mormons for all the obvious reasons you can find here, (wink wink,) consider joining a Jewish sect in your neighborhood, or one online.

As far as the Mormons are concerned, the Jews are the only other religious tribe that's considered "chosen" and "holy." That way, in your LDS community you'll fit right in, only better than ever.

Though word of caution: Judaism frowns on tattoos. Not that you can't have them, but they're considered a form of desecration to the body temple. Like body piercing would be, etc.

In Judaism you can have your cake and eat it too. ;o)

Based on personal experience I know, having been both a Mormon and a Jew, that being Jewish is a gazillion times more preferential to being Mormon any day!

Nor will they care if you don't have kids, or treat you as less than perfect because you made a decision not to. Mormons would see that as strange.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2016 08:22PM by Amyjo.

Wow +1

Well, there are countless reasons to hate it. For starters, it's an authoritarian organization that possesses many characteristics of a cult. It permits no open disagreement with its doctrines or policies, and allows no criticism of its leaders, "even if the criticism is true." [an actual quote] You cannot pick when or where to attend services; you must attend at your assigned building and time.

The church frequently tears apart families if one member of the household no longer believes in the church; believing spouses can and do file for divorce rather than be married to a non-believer. It is demanding, expecting you to donate liberally of your time (three hours every Sunday, plus most of your "free time" to fulfill your church callings) and money (10% of your gross income) for life.

It is intrusive, as you will be summoned to the bishop's office periodically for interviews to determine your continued worthiness, and you will be expected to allow other members into your house each month whether you want them or not. You'll also be assigned a time to clean the building (the church had paid janitors at one time, but fired them, then built a billion-dollar shopping mall) so you may have to work bathroom duty.

In your own case, you will be looked down upon for your tattoos and absence of children. Your "friends" will remain so only insofar as you remain loyal to the church. If you are baptized into the church and your husband refuses, you will be heavily pressured to get him to join any way you can; and if he still refuses, you will be judged for failing in your duty to the church.

If you think I'm kidding or exaggerating, think again. Mormonism is all or nothing. Once you are in, the church thinks it owns you. Should you decide to sign up with them, you'll be back in a few months, asking us how to fix the horrible mistake you just made.

As for helping your husband's business prospects, read this older thread first. Then ask yourself if it's such a good idea.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1747279

Will it be easy trying to go to a synagogue ? Ironically , I've been reading up on the Jewish faith a lot. I heard that the Orthodox(ones I like)don't really except conversions .
I do have a small amount of European Jewish on my Ancestry DNA chart , but my father being adapted , it's hard to know who his family is. His birth mother had a German name , that's all I know, ever since I was little, I've been interested in some of their customs , especially the Jewish wedding and the chair dance

When I was working my way through Exodus, Mila 18, QB VII, The Hajj, etc., I'd tell myself that if I couldn't be Mexican, I'd want to be a Zionist Jew...who converted to the mormon church...

If you're interested in Judaism, look for a Reform or a Conservative synagogue near you. If there isn't one, there's loads of online webinars where you can find rabbinical schooling. Be careful though, as one rabbi pointed out recently, they aren't all considered Jewish. Aish.com is a good resource for starters. I have links if you're interested, let me know, and I can forward you some (will need to let admin exchange our emails for that.)

Conservative and Reform movements are recognized, though not as conservative as the Orthodox, which is why many American Jews are drawn to them.

They appeal to more moderate and liberal Jews.

They also welcome converts. It's just Judaism does not seek out converts or proselytize. If you're willing to make the effort, they will meet you half-way and then some. Some of the nicest people I've met at synagogue are converts. They fit right in, and feel right at home.

I should have also mentioned the Asher Lev novels... Fascinating!

But note I said "IF" I couldn't be Mexican... Turns out I could!

In his novel "The Hajj", Mr. Uris painted a vibrant, close to positive portrait of the Palestinians. Was he doing penance?

I thought only Orthodox could become citizens of Israel. Are there different branches of Orthodox? One of the synagogues that I used to live by in NJ , I thought was Orthodox , but someone told me , Orthodox are the ones where women where long dresses and men have the long curls ; I haven't seen those. I thought mist of them were in NY, I did see one ultra Orthodox guy in the mall before. I don't want a liberal one though
The only thing that makes me nervous is the mikvah. Are you really naked , in front of everyone?

Reform and Conservative Jews may also make Aliyah (immigration to Israel.) Orthodox rules in the Knesset (Israeli Parliament,) and controls what is known as Halachic Law for Israel.

Orthodox Jews are still "preferred" but not the only ones allowed to live there. In Orthodox synagogues men are segregated from the women, and only men get to wear kippas and tallits (prayer shawls.) In Conservative and Reform women are welcome to wear either, and also be rabbis. No women rabbis in Orthodox, so far.

Don't know much about mikvahs. They're likely segregated also. If you have a tattoo, you wouldn't be allowed entrance to one, because it's a sanitary violation.

In Japan, public bathing is encouraged, but separates males from females. That is where the community gathers to share information and local town news. Not sure about the mikvahs because I haven't been exposed to any in my Jewish faith thus far. When visiting Japan in 2014 I didn't join a community bath; I was able to maintain my privacy while there - though the option was available. Tattoos are also disallowed in public bathhouses in Japan for similar reasons they are for mikvahs, something to do with it violates Japanese sanitary laws.

Conservative Judaism was a born in America movement as a response to the uber orthodox, and the too liberal Reform. They jokingly call the Orthodox the crazy ones, the Reform the lazy ones, and the Conservative are the hazy ones. :))

My German Jewish ancestors were among the early Reform adherents in old Germany. Moses Mendelssohn is related through marriage to my German Jewish ancestry, as are one of the Baron de Rothschild's granddaughters. She married a great grand uncle of mine. They were part of the Reform movement that Moses Mendelssohn ushered in. My German Jewish ancestors who migrated to America in the 1850's were Reform Jews.

Although I imagine that's changed a whole lot in the last 200 years, from when it got its start. It was probably more conservative then than it is now.

There are different sects found among the Orthodox, like there is in Christianity - though not as varied. Israel has its share of hard-liners and moderates like other nation-states, religion notwithstanding.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2016 01:14PM by Amyjo.

Hockey Rat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I thought only Orthodox could become citizens of
> Israel.

If you are talking about immigrants to Israel, Israeli secular law says that anyone with one Jewish grandparent is considered to be a Jew, for the purposes of immigration to Israel ONLY. (The reason for this is that this was the criteria of the Nazis regarding who went to the camps and into the ovens).

Converts to Judaism ARE "full Jews" FOR PURPOSES OF IMMIGRATION TO ISRAEL ONLY, and can demand instant Israeli citizenship upon their arrival in Israel (assuming they have their conversion certificate with them, of course). Conversions supervised by recognized rabbis (they've been to theological school and have been ordained) ARE recognized as valid FOR PURPOSES OF IMMIGRANTION TO ISRAEL ONLY. (Once you receive your Israeli citizenship, or your permission to be an Israeli resident, however, then a whole OTHER thing kicks in for civil matters, with marriage...divorce...adoption...burial being the biggies here.)

>Are there different branches of Orthodox? Absolutely...there is an entire spectrum of Jewish Orthodoxy from "fairly liberal" in an Orthodox sense, to bat-shit crazy on the far right (meaning: the Jewish "cults"---and they really ARE cults).

The other big divide is between Ashkenazi Jews (basically: your ancestors were of German/Russian/Polish (etc.) descent), and Sephardim (your ancestors, once upon a time, lived in southern Spain or Portugal). Ashkenazim generally speak Yiddish as their Jewish language...Sephardim speak Ladino (think Spanish, more or less, with a bunch of medieval additions). Ashkenazi have one type of Jewish food (based on German and Russian roots)...Sephardim have an entirely different type of Jewish food (think Mediterranean). Their music is different; their dances are different; their culture is different.

> One of the synagogues that I used to live by in NJ
> , I thought was Orthodox

...it probably was (what Jews most often call Modern Orthodox: you wouldn't know they were Orthodox, generally, unless you knew the cues---men have American-normal haircuts and are often clean-shaven...women dress, most often, in an unobtrusive "normal modest"---like LDS women and teenage girls are supposed to dress, and women do not cover their hair)

> but someone told me ,
> Orthodox are the ones where women where long
> dresses and men have the long curls ; I haven't
> seen those.

These are the ultra-Orthodox, the ultra-ultra Orthodox, and the ultra-ultra-ultra Orthodox.

> I thought mist of them were in NY,

New York in particular, but also in other parts of the US Northeast, mostly, and in Canada as well.


> The only thing that makes me nervous is the
> mikvah. Are you really naked , in front of
> everyone?

Rivers and oceans are kosher mikvaot (the Pacific Ocean was my mikvah), so because it is in public, men and women wear their choice of oversized shorts, muu-muus (etc.) so they can be naked UNDERNEATH their outer clothes. (No bras, etc. underneath.)

For indoor mikvahs: You get superclean, using the mikvah facilities (showers, bathtubs, etc.) BEFORE you go into the room where the mikvah pool is. You wear something like a bathrobe (whatever you want that covers you to the extent that you want to be covered) when you take the short walk to the mikvah pool itself.

If there is a conversion, there are either rabbis "there" to witness first-hand your three dunks, OR the rabbi(s) is on the other side of a screen, etc., and the "mikvah lady" (attendant for women), or "guy" (???---I don't know what they call the male counterpart of the mikvah lady) witnesses your dunks and calls out to the rabbi behind the screen that they are valid dunks (or not; in which case you have to do that dunk over again). (I should probably point out that rabbis come in both genders now---even in Orthodox Judaism!!!)

If you are there for normal mikvah activities (for observant Jewish women: after their menstrual periods have ended, and also after childbirth...for observant Jewish men: after they have had sex (ejaculated) )...then there is just the mikvah attendant (same gender as you are) who tells you if your dunks are valid, and if they are not, you do that dunk again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2016 11:45AM by Tevai.

Orthodox rabbis will accept sincere potential converts, but they may go through the traditional "three refusal" thing, which means:

If at some point you should decide you want to convert, then in an Orthodox shul [synagogue], you go to the rabbi and talk to him (in Orthodox Judaism, it will always be a "him" ;) )...after which, he may well say something along the lines of "No way" (because this is a long-standing Jewish tradition to separate out casual inquirers from those who are serious).

If this happens, you simply smile and say: "This is Number One."

In a couple of weeks or so, you go back and talk to him again.

If he again says "No way," then YOU say: "This is Number Two."

Repeat once more, until you get a third refusal.

When you go back for the fourth time to ask to be converted, he MUST accept you for study (there is some studying you have to do, as well as whatever else that shul requires). The only way he can refuse you a fourth time is if he had some real knowledge that you were doing this for some ulterior reason that would either hurt the Jewish people, or if someone (for example) had told you that they would give you a bunch of money if you would convert to Judaism.

There are three halachic ("Jewish law") requirements that all Jews except for Reform Jews must do (and even Reform Judaism, as I understand, is now requiring these more and more).

They are:

1) For males: you must either get circumcised if you are not already circumcised, OR (if you ARE already circumcised) you must get what is called a "symbolic circumcision" which means: you go to a mohel (a Jewish ritual circumciser---who may well ALSO be a medical doctor), usually during regular office hours, and the mohel will put on his kippah and tallit (prayer shawl), say the blessings for circumcision, and then produce a single drop of blood from the head of your penis with a sterile needle (assuming that this is done in a doctor's office).

2) For males and females: you must go through the mikvah (Jewish ritual bath). For Orthodox Jews, this will most always be in an indoor mikvah (ritual bath facility), but rivers and oceans are also mikvaot (plural of mikvah), and my mikvah, when I converted to Judaism, was the Pacific Ocean (because the indoor mikvah at the Jewish university I was converting through had not been completed yet). Someone asked about nakedness: in an indoor mikvah, you get COMPLETELY clean in the mikvah showers/bathtub BEFORE you enter the mikvah waters (and yes, you would wear a covering like a bathrobe to the actual mikvah pool), you would enter the mikvah water naked, and there will be witnesses of your same gender to make sure that every single hair and every particle of your skin is made wet with the mikvah water during your three dunks. Indoor mikvahs either have separate sections for males and females, or separate hours for males and females.

When we (mixed group of males and females, including kids above age 12 (girls) or age 13 (males), went to the Pacific Ocean for our mikvah, we wore either roomy shorts (males) or muu-muus a couple of sizes too large (for females) with no underwear underneath and no jewelry on, and our teachers (who were all rabbis) witnessed that we each did each of our three kosher (ritually acceptable) dunks, and then they signed the record sheet on the clipboard they had brought along.

3) You appear before a Bet Din (a Jewish court composed of three rabbis) who examine you for sincerity, and to ascertain that you have at least enough knowledge for beginning Jews.

In our classes, the males had to get their circumcisions or symbolic circumcisions at a particular time (I think there was a two-week window for them to do this), because all scabs had to be gone by the time of the mikvah. (You cannot wear any jewelery in the mikvah, and no Band-Aids, nail polish, makeup or anything else, and this includes circumcision scabs.)

If you are thinking of doing this, you need to go shul shopping (we were given a list of every possible kind of Jewish synagogue in our greater geographical area, and our job was to find "the one" we felt most at home in).

If you are interested enough to pursue this, you need to know that, in general in the United States, Jews are divided into Ashkenazi Jews (the Tevye kind of Jews: German/Russian descended Jews)...and Sephardi Jews (whose ancestors, centuries ago, lived in southern Spain and in Portugal). Ashkenazi Jews are stricter in many ways than are Sephardim, and the food is different. (In Israel, there are some other important groups of Jews: Mizrahi Jews (their ancestors are from, generally, lands which are now Muslim), Ethiopian Jews (descendants of the biblical Queen of Sheba), and all kinds of Jews (Asian, subcontinent Indian, etc.) from ancestors who settled in those lands centuries or millennia ago. Jews come from every racial group, and countless different ethnic groups.

"All" Sephardim "are" Orthodox, because the Sephardi tradition is a great deal more "elastic" than is the Ashkenazi tradition. When changes had to be made through the centuries, Sephardim were able to make the changes without breaking into different groups.

For the Ashkenazim, they often times could NOT make the necessary changes, so they broke into (what we now, in the United States) call "movements." The usual American spectrum of Jewish movements is ("left" to "right"---think political "left" to political "right"):

Reform...Reconstructionist...Conservative...Modern Orthodox...Orthodox...super Orthodox...and super-super-super Orthodox (the "black hats" as Jews call them ;) ).

There are also Jewish atheists throughout the Jewish spectrum (even among Orthodox Jews, and also among rabbis throughout the spectrum), and when they are categorized separately, they are often known as "Jewish Humanists." (There are Jewish Humanist congregations, and Jewish Humanist High Holy Day services every year as well.)

There is also another designation that is true in the United States, but is particularly important in Israel: secular Jews. (In Israel, secular Jews are 42% of the Israeli population.) Secular Jews are often extremely devoted to the ideals of Judaism (tikkun olam/"repairing the world" at the top of most every Jew's list) as well as to the Jewish people, but they make their own decisions about what, if any, religious observances they will observe. When they do participate, it is usually because someone near to them has died, or because they just feel like it (going to Friday night services, which is the beginning of Shabbat, for example), or services for Jewish holidays. They may or may not keep kosher, or they may keep kosher for some things but not for others. (I am vegetarian, so technically, I sort of "keep kosher," but this is only because vegetarian food is almost always kosher just as it is. :D )

If you are interested in Orthodox Judaism, Google: Orthodox synagogues [your geographical area]. Depending on where you live, some of those may be Iranian or Syrian or Moroccan (etc.), which are very interesting experiences all by themselves, but probably wouldn't be something you would be interested in joining. :D My suggestion: Try to find a Modern Orthodox synagogue, because they are often the most liberal of the Orthodox spectrum (and they probably will be easier to get conversion through as well). Just call around.

In Orthodox synagogues there WILL be a "mechitzah"---a divider of some kind between males and females (does not include children up to age about six or so; small children can be in either section, regardless of gender). There may be a curtain or a kind of "wall" down the middle of the sanctuary, or the women's section may be in a balcony, etc. Just be aware that Orthodox congregations ARE divided by gender during services.

And as a male, you WILL need to wear a kipah (the Jewish skullcap) or some other head covering (like a hat). (If you see a guy wearing a multi-colored, knitted kipah, he has a GF or a fiancée who knitted it for him. It's a kind of gentle boast that he is now in a serious relationship.) Kipot (plural of kipah) will be found somewhere in the outer reception area of the shul...just grab one and put it on before you enter the sanctuary itself, and then be sure to return it to where you found it before you leave the building.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2016 11:29AM by Tevai.

Thank you, Tevai. Very, very informative.

And now I know, and am deeply wounded by its absence, that La Saucie owes me a knitted golf cap... After all, she is wearing my elders quorum jacket!

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you, Tevai. Very, very informative.
>
> And now I know, and am deeply wounded by its
> absence, that La Saucie owes me a knitted golf
> cap... After all, she is wearing my elders quorum
> jacket!
-----------------------------------------------------

Ok Ok OK .... I can take a hint.

Wow, thanks s lot got putting all of this together ; it was very thoughtful . I have a lot to look over. I have a couple of Jewish books, but they're different . It's like Amy said , you have to be careful what you read. Yours explained everything possible in a nutshell.

Hockey Rat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow, thanks s lot got putting all of this together
> ; it was very thoughtful . I have a lot to look
> over. I have a couple of Jewish books, but they're
> different . It's like Amy said , you have to be
> careful what you read. Yours explained everything
> possible in a nutshell.

Thank you, Hockey Rat!!!

It's one thing to choose what you eat, drink, do to your body, or choose how to spend your income. If you join the LDS church, they will want to dictate most of that FOR you. Okay, you're mostly living that way already, but you probably value the fact that you chose all on your own.

There are some LOVELY LOVELY people in the LDS church, but there are many many negatives. It's racist behavior is still quite recent -blacks were only allowed the priesthood starting in 1978. Women are not equal - they can never hold a position of authority over a man, but a man ALWAYS presides over the women. LGBT is a BIG issue, with the LDS Church making highly unusual rulings when it comes to homosexuality. Thousands of members quit the church over it. The church leaders are not at all accountable to the members. They receive BILLIONS of dollars from the members and do not report how it is spent.

The church even built a fancy shopping mall! How many churches do THAT?

The Book of Mormon was not written by a 14-year old boy with little education in a few months time. There is a large body of evidence that he spent several years on it, had other people to help write it, and referred to other books, including large portions of the Bible.

The history of the early church is just awful, and the incriminating facts come from LDS church records and historical documents. It's so awful that it's fascinating too. I have NO respect for Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, or any of them.

Yeah, at the time he discovered or was told about the plates , he had to keep them buried gor 4 years, enough time to write and copy. He or someone else list part of the " important scripture ", but he always had excuses on why he couldn't " retranslate" it
Almost all of his witnesses left the church . I didn't know any of this until recently. I never thought to look up as to Motmon stuff until now, the list keeps going on. What everyone here is telling you is the truth

You will not find like minded people in the church. Especially women.

The women are second class members. Literally they are babysat. A man is usually at all function to provide oversite.

If your husband hates religion the church is not the place for him.

Be aware the church will want 10 percent of your gross income. Often that is 20 to 30 percent of a well to do couples take home.

The church will want you to spend hours doing meaningless labor and you'll be expected to take your turn cleaning the church bathrooms.

The church does not perform charitable acts.

I suggest you try a local organization like the Lions or Eagles or VFW etc.

Good luck to you.

If the Unitarian or Jewish community don't work for you, you might have to find friends one at a time. It might be pie in the sky to expect to find a ready-made community that exactly suits your needs.

Have you reached out to other arts and crafts groups?

Have you found volunteer organizations that fit your interests?

Have you met your neighbors or the volunteers at the local public school?

It takes time and effort to build a group of friends. Your can do it with patience and effort. Good luck.

Meetup dot com

You could join a health club or see if there are any Meet up groups in your area. (Meet-up. Com)

I wouldn't advise joining any type of church unless you thoroughly research them, and decide if they are truly a good fit for your beliefs.

If you make friends with Mormon women, with no intent of joining Mormonism, expect to be hounded to take missionary discussions. They may even send missionaries to your home, unbidden. They will think, wow, you and your husband are nice people for non Mormons. But your friendship would be worth so much more if you were Mormon. They will treat you like the most interesting and popular person on Earth, until you are baptized. Then they move on to the next victim.

If you don't have children or do not plan on ever having children, you will always be judged by them. You will never be a full fledged member or adult in their opinion. You will be classified as last class citizen.

With how psychologically damaging it is to have contact with a cult, I would not recommend entangling yourself with it at any price. Continue to study about it online to make sure you are armed with good knowledge to keep yourself and your husband safe. "Clean living" is like a schtick, the real heart of being Mormon is obeying leaders, giving and receiving manipulation, and forking over your precious time and money (however much they can manipulate out of you).

Find local groups that match your interests, or for off gridding, I bet there is a reddit for that with even local meetups. You could probably even start up a group yourself if you have that inclination. Good luck with finding new, genuine friends.

Spiritually, I have only found 'like minded' friends on line on less than a handful of websites.

Interest wise I am in local sports, fishing, camping, skiing, traveling/vacation, etc. etc. groups.

My wife is TBM and of course her only group is church.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2016 11:17AM by spiritist.

Nudism


or, amateur radio. I also have friends in the Search & Rescue group.

I'm kinda right there with you. I like clean living, looking to become a homesteader, and I'm living in a more urban place now, and whoa am I out of place. You're not alone. But I have no answers. lol

Ha,there's a like minded person :)

Thank you, everyone. I received quite a response here! I have to say I'm totally confused about why people who choose not to be parents would be harshly judged and last class. That was the most freaky thing. Why???

I've lots to think about.

If you're mormon, having kids is the end all of end all. It's a commandment. Mormon women who can't have children for whatever reason are usually pretty miserable. They literally fear for their eternal salvation. Mormon women are taught that their role in the next life will be to have children for eternity. As in, having baby after baby. They will share their husbands with other women who didn't have a husband in their mortal life. Their husbands will rule over them, and they will be happy about that.


Google the mormon temple ceremony to see what goes on in the temple.It's on Utube. Richard Packham's web site has great info that's very accurate. You'll learn all kinds of reasons to not be mormon. Also CES letter.com and MormonThink.com.

One last tidbit. I was a mormon for over 50 years. I was born into it. I had the misfortune of being the artistic type. This was NOT looked upon as an asset by mormon members. First of all, it takes time and is a solitary endeavor. The church wants all of your time and energy. They will not pay you for it either. Members have this little quirk of expecting other members to do things for them without pay. This will include your time and talents.

I don't know what your hubby does, but depending on mormons to build your business is a bad idea. They're notorious for not paying up when it comes to other members. They think they should get everything for free. IF your hubby is a contractor or any business related to that, run like the wind. You will be taken advantage of. Mormons love those MLM type businesses. Don't be surprised when you get hit up to sign on and have parties or whatever those so called businesses are into at the moment.

IMO, nobody is a good fit for mormonism. It requires giving up who and what you are so you can then be used in the service of the church. That's not good for anyone.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2016 01:32AM by madalice.

You're also treated as second class if you're a single mother.

So, whether married and childless especially by choice (heaven forbid!) or single or single parenthood, are just treated differently (as in inferior,) than married couples with children.

When my TBM parents divorced (1970's,) all, repeat every last one of their Mormon friends (all couples,) up and abandoned them.

Although my rabbi just gave his sermon on that very thing last Shabbat, about divorce in Judaism. Apparently the same phenomenon happens there too. He spoke about divorce as a blessing instead of a sin, if two people can't live together. And for co-worshipers to be more inclusive instead of exclusive for those affected by divorce.

I found Lots of personal satisfaction working with the local Habitat For Humanity group, also they sent me to a gathering in Cali that I reported back to our local affiliate.

This is more disturbing than I ever could have imagined. How does anyone voluntarily live this way? It seems so limiting and rigid. I feel like I might lose my mind if I had to live in that church.

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. Some MORmON dogma is pure idiocy, and MORmONS know it or they would know it IF they were ever forced to face reality. But reality of MORmON dogma is NOT what they are focusing on. the MORmON church is the support group / social network for a lot of people and they are totally dependent on it, and they will parrot the official party line AS IF they really believe it regardless of what it is at any time, no matter how damn dumb or ridiculous that it may be. The social network is what people are focusing on. It is the ONLY REAL benefit of MORmONISM, and it comes at a huge financial cost, which to me is totally NOT worth it. I might be unusual because I do not have to have constant social interaction to keep me engaged and going. In fact, I prefer a very minimal amount of social interaction. But, I totally realize that most/many people totally crave it and need it. FOr them MORmONISM is a trap, it is like a drug addiction and they are NOT going to quit their beloved MORmON social club over hefty membership dues or idiot doctrine, because they have to have their social fix. It irritates the Hell out of me that an organization can be so willing to so viciously exploit the human condition.

WHY DON'T YOU HAVE CHILDREN!!? Do you want strangers in the church asking you this question over and over? I continually got asked why I wasn't married.

Use the internet to look for groups or people in your area. Forget the mormon church. At first they'll be nice until you insist your not interested or you join. The church is not a social club. It's pay-pray-obey.

People would actually ask that question? Omg, want if we were infertile? We were not by nature, but DH did have a vasectomy. I trying to wrap my head around judging another's childbearing (or lack thereof) when they wouldn't be the ones carry, birthing, or raising said kids. I should probably mention that many think I'm younger, but I'm in my mid thirties...meaning I could use that as an excuse because risks raise significantly 35 plus. I'm blown away!

There is a basis for maintaining the point of view that mormonism restricts women to one purpose, and one purpose only, which is to birth and raise children. Anything else is just silly icing on the cake.

"You're wife is a doctor, a teacher, an attorney? How ... cute!"

Careers for women are totally pointless because there is no need for them to know anything other than the household sciences and how to get children to learn the 13 articles of faith and get the boys geared towards missions and the girls towards becoming mommies.

The vision of heaven (Celestial Glory) that mormons are chasing has women doing one thing, and one thing only: being one of ghawd only knows how many wives of one newly minted ghawd/human, ad having his spirit babies...for all eternity.

Ordinarily I'd say, 'you can't make this shit up!', but these are not ordinary people.

dk Wrote:
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> interested or you join. The church is not a social
> club. It's pay-pray-obey.


For the members, I think that THE (MORmON) church IS a social club more than anything else, certainly a very expensive dictatorial social club, but just because MORmONS are too STUPID to abandon their beloved stupid expensive dictatorial MORmON social club does not mean that it is not a social club. Even as rotten as it really is, the social club aspect of MORmONISM is really the most appealing part of MORmONISM and the very thing that keeps it rolling along, because the stupid secret handshakes really do not do anything!!! the doctrine is worthless crap unless it is used to wring money out of members and the biggest appeal that the doctrine has is allowing dumb ass MORmONS to feel superior over it in a social context, regardless of how stupid that it really is.

How boring and unenlightening to want to spend all your time among "like-minded people."
You'll never learn anything. You'll never have your beliefs or assumptions challenged. You'll never hear a point of view you haven't considered before. You'll never have to face up to the fact that the world is full of people who aren't "like-minded."

But, hey, if what you want is to never have to think or stretch your mind or deal with anything you don't know, then mormonism is a great place for you. Because no opinion other than that expressed by the dear leaders is acceptable, and nobody will ever try to get you to think or learn. Of course, you'll have to ignore the fact that the cult sucks 10% of your income from you for its own corporate interests, giving you nothing in return; you'll have to deal with shunning and ostracism of family who don't toe the doctrinal line; you'll have to deal with the simple fact that the core events claimed to have started the church are proven-false bullshit dreamed up by a charismatic con-man and child molester...

But those are small prices to pay to be among "like-minded" people and never have to think, right?

I spent my entire life in a part of the US where those around me didn't share my values. So while I understand what you're trying to say, it was very lonely for me. I'm trying to avoid that same situation in my adult life.

You and your hubby should take up golf!

I get that. I lived in Utah as an ex-mo for a short time, ugh. I'm a liberal atheist in a very conservative rural community now.

The difference?
Now, I find many more people open to discussion and congenial "debate." I learn from them, they learn from me.

In Utah, not so much.

I'll take "open-minded" over "like-minded" any day :)

Join your local bicycling or running club. Lots of very interesting people with quite varied world outlooks. Variety is the spice of life.

And it's good exercise.

My late maternal grandmother lived in a mostly Mormon community for most of her adult life, after relocating there with grandpa following the birth of my mom.

She never converted to Mormonism. Most of her friends were non-LDS in her mostly LDS community, and she was never at a lack for friends, things to do, personal interests, hobbies, or sports.

She was a very talented woman who cultivated her uniqueness in a world of sameness. I admire that very much about my grandmother.

She knew how to be a friend, and cultivated friends like she did her talents and hobbies. She is someone who I consider to be a true mensch in every sense of the word.

I believe you'll find your niche where you are, you just need to define where your interests lie, and people you wish to associate with who are above board like yourself. They're out there, be patient. :))

Perhaps its been mentioned but I recommend www.meetup.com. It's a great place to meet like minded people with similar interests.