Daughter has been in contact recently with both my son and a rabbi she knew locally before relocating overseas.

She is having some serious health issues, has lost her job, and is close to losing her home if she cannot pay her rent, etc.

She refuses to have any contact with me however. This began several years ago while she was a senior in college. Her last year of school she was caught plagiarizing. The first time came with a warning not to do it again. Well, she did her last semester. And was suspended from graduating with her class until she did some additional work that would put her back in the good graces of her college.

She ran away from home that spring on the day I went to pick her up from college was the day she went missing. I found a letter in my mailbox when I came home that she was running away from her life basically.

She disappeared to a TBM brother living in the mid-West, who has been a deceitful brother for as long as I can remember. He hid her at his house from me, until I pressured him through another TBM brother to fess up that he was hiding her. That didn't help her in the least come to terms with me, or her college, or her life. She has developed into a Borderline Personality since leaving home for college, and into someone I barely recognize.

Because of her BPD I don't know when she's telling the truth from a lie anymore. I haven't heard from her in over four years. The rabbi is coming to me asking for help because she needs money for housing, and other necessities. He is honoring my daughter's confidence as her clergy not to disclose any details about her other than she's in need.

I've spent untold sums of money on her up to now trying to help her before, during, and following college prior to her running away from her life, and since. What doesn't sit right with me is not having any information on her health or where she is. We haven't spoken in more than four years, and she still wants no contact with me as she's being very stubborn, according to the rabbi. He also acknowledges she has some deep psychological disturbances.

I just sent him some money so he can get it to my daughter to cover her rent for the next month. He believes this may be ongoing for some time, and that she will need more in the near future to cover other undisclosed expenses. My son told me she contacted him asking for help also. She told him she needed money for a malpractice lawsuit she wants to bring against someone. I told both the rabbi and my son I will have no part in helping her pay attorney fees for a malpractice suit, if there were any chance she could win they'd be taking it on contingency.

Son hadn't heard from her in four years either until her recent appeal for help. He's prepared to help her some, but doesn't have thousands of dollars to front for a malpractice suit, and I told him not to because that would be throwing away his money if he did.

Borderlines are great at coming around when they need help. I want to help my daughter. I don't know that giving her a handout is going to help our relationship any. The rabbi tells me it may help in restoring trust. I let him know it wasn't me who violated that trust, but my daughter when she pulled the stunts she has in the past several years. I forgive her. I do not wish her to be homeless, or left destitute.

But where does a mother's love turn into entitlement or enabling a Borderline child? If she's sick, God forbid, I want her to get the help she needs. She still isn't coming to me asking me for help. The rabbi is doing it for her. He's trying to help, and I hope has her best intentions at heart as mine.

I just don't know what to think right now. I'm sending her money like I'd throw someone a life jacket. But I don't know if it will have any effect on whether she comes back around. Should I concern myself with that right now, while her health is in crisis?

I realize it isn't my duty now she is an adult to support her. She will always be my daughter. I don't want her dying or destitute without my trying to help her in whatever way possible. I also don't know what she isn't telling. It's very difficult and stressful position for me either way I go.

Told the rabbi I can help her short term but not long term with handouts. And that if she is in such dire straits that she cannot pay her rent and would become homeless otherwise, she can live rent free with me until she's back on her feet again.

The other dilemma is that she is living in Israel, but doesn't want me to know this. At one time we were going to move there together, until she disappeared in 2012. I wonder if she doesn't have the courage to tell me she went without me, so is trying to keep it a secret? The rabbi will forward her money I send to him, but won't tell me where she's living for now. If she needed to come home to live, I'd need to somehow get to Israel, or convince her that coming home is in her best interest over being homeless there.

And this folks is my life. Parenthood doesn't end when a child reaches a magical number age. There is no magical number. When a child has an emotional or mental illness, it just makes it all that much harder especially when she needs my help but not enough to ask me herself. Tough love would be great, but I can't cut her off without extending her an olive branch letting her know I'm still here for her.

Oh, I really feel for you and understand how hard this must be. You must remember, however, that your daughter is an adult and you are no longer responsible even though it hurts to see her go through something hard.

If she is truly borderline and manipulative she will get the money from somewhere. Did she ask the rabbi to come to you?

This is how I would try to look at it and ask the rabbi to communicate it to her. You love her very much and never want anything bad to happen to her but all choices in life come with consequences and nothing is free. If she wants your help these are the conditions. 1. You will be happy to put her up rent free while she gets on her feet with minimal, common sense adult rules of courtesy and respect. 2. You will arrange for the rabbi to make the travel plans for her arrival and 3. She goes to counseling with you indefinitely to resolve your estrangement.

That's it. There's the lifeline. Now it's her choice if she wants to grab on.

Thanks for sharing. Those are some good ideas that I will consider in future correspondence with her rabbi.

I think this is excellent advice. I have been close to someone who has behaved similarly, and I think professional help is imperative.

Im so sorry you are going through this, please keep us posted.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Parenthood doesn't end
> when a child reaches a magical number age. There
> is no magical number. When a child has an
> emotional or mental illness, it just makes it all
> that much harder especially when she needs my help
> but not enough to ask me herself.


I'm so sorry, Amyjo. As a mother who takes care of her mentally ill son, I understand your grief and frustration. I don't have any answers, just a lot of empathy and hope that you'll find what you need.

Thank you. From one mom to another, I understand. ((((hugs))))

Most lawyers will handle a valid malpractice suit on a contingency fee basis; the client does not pay up front, and if the case is lost, the client pays nothing. If the case is won, the lawyer gets a large share (usually 1/3 or 40%) of the damage award as his fee.

IOW, if she has a valid malpractice suit, she does not need money to pursue it - just a good case that a lawyer thinks can be won.

That's what I thought too. What she was asking from son for her malpractice lawsuit was enough to sponsor her for six months - not very prudent if she is the one with the dire need.

Attorneys will take retainer fees upfront typically if they believe the lawsuit is not going to recover any monies. She either lacks the maturity to understand this, or her request may be a cover for something other than what she says it's for.

Either way, it's not wise for anyone wanting to help someone out in a bind, to hand over money to fund a lawsuit that's a no win for the client.

It would be lose-lose for her and me both! :/

She has become very manipulative and good at mooching. I doubt she is telling the truth about much of anything. Lying has been how she gets what she wants without taking any responsibility. You are under no obligation to pay for what she wants when she is ungrateful, nasty and won't deal with you or meet with you because she knows she can't fool you anymore.

I'd tell the rabbi that you are done playing her games. You are out of extra money. I would not meet with the rabbi. This is total nonsense.

If they can't help her, she can go to the government like everyone else does that needs it.
She can get medical help on Obamacare and food stamps etc. and money to live on.
She can get help from Catholic Charities also.

That's my two cents. I've seen this scenario several times. They take and take and take and want more and more and more and are good at finding gullible people who feel sorry for them.

No money is necessary up front for a malpractice suit. She is pulling someone's leg again.

It also may be she is being exploited by someone better at manipulating than she is.

I just don't know.

The rabbi has vouched for her authenticity and dire needs, without going into more details. I have to trust the rabbi, even though I haven't got anything more to go on.

She's currently in Israel, based on what I know. She has healthcare coverage, that I was able to confirm with the local rabbi. Israel has socialized medicine.

I've known some borderlines through my work in Consumer Protection these past several decades. The saddest and most disturbing case was of a woman who came to my office asking for assistance. She seemed harmless enough. The more she came as a walk-in seeking help, the more unraveled she became and menacing. She was a mean borderline. She'd alienated her mother. She'd been thrown out of our local homeless shelters, and was living in her car that didn't drive.

One winter she was written up in a tiny little article in the local newspaper as having frozen to death in her car overnight while parked at a shopping mall. She wasn't my daughter, but I wondered how lost a person can be that their own mother isn't willing to help even when she's in the same town? She was very mentally unbalanced and should've been institutionalized. There aren't enough resources to help these people in this society. I don't know there are in Israel either.

My daughter isn't that far gone. I just refuse to give up on her. Maybe to my own detriment, I know. I still can't give up that she'll get help, and if I am in a position to help her I want to be able to somehow.

I am sorry, Amyjo...

I know you don't have a great deal of information about your daughter, but I am wondering how she was paying her rent up to now. I am well aware of the cost of any kind of real estate in Israel (which includes rentals), and how incredibly expensive everything is. If she has been paying her rent up to now, and suddenly she is looking at the prospect of not being able to pay her rent, what has changed?

I also don't know anything about her health issues (although I do know that she should have medical insurance, and if she doesn't, there is something "wrong" going on)...

...and I don't know how her health issues are impacting her ability to support herself. Is she now not able to work a normal Israeli workday, six days a week? My first thought was that she could volunteer at a kibbutz for a few months (volunteers get free housing...three meals a day free...free laundry...and some kind of "pocket money" payment each month) but they also have to work regular hours, six days a week (with Jewish holidays off, and one-to-three extra days off per month, depending on the kibbutz in question).

If (as I understood from previous posts of yours) she is in a super-frum, black hat community, then the rabbis there should be able to make sure that her basic needs are being met---maybe not in the most pleasant way (being a nanny in exchange for room and board, for example), but it would at least be a way for her to survive in the short term.

Has she done her IDF service? If so, she should be on the "inside" of a number of small communities that she could access for immediate help. (IDF relationships usually last lifetimes.)

Israel is generally quite protective of its citizens (I think you said she now has Israeli citizenship), but without further information, I don't have any other suggestions to offer...

...except, if she goes to the American consulate (there are American consulates in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, and Haifa) and talks to them, the chances are that the people she talks to will have some real advice that means something (the Jungle Tom-Tom works in Israel the same way it works anywhere else ;) ).

Israel is a very small country, and even if it isn't LITERALLY true that everyone knows everyone else, it kind of works that way dafke. :D

[dafke: "regardless...in spite of....even so..."]

I am sorry you are going through this.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2016 04:40PM by Tevai.

Tevai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am sorry, Amyjo...
>
> I know you don't have a great deal of information
> about your daughter, but I am wondering how she
> was paying her rent up to now. I am well aware of
> the cost of any kind of real estate in Israel
> (which includes rentals), and how incredibly
> expensive everything is. If she has been paying
> her rent up to now, and suddenly she is looking at
> the prospect of not being able to pay her rent,
> what has changed?

She's lost her job, based on what she's told the rabbi and my son. Her health is not good, but I don't know what she's suffering with or from other than what I'm dealing with.

I asked the rabbi if she has health insurance? He believes she has healthcare coverage, but doesn't provide any more details than this. As for her work, when a borderline gets caught in a fib it may well have cost her her job. She can only pull the wool over some of the people some of the time. Sooner or later her lying catches up with her, as it did in college, and some things she's done since. She knows right from wrong. That's part of what's frustrating is breaking down that barrier between the personality disorder and the woman child I raised.

If she's lost her job and credibility ie, trust with people around her, that may put her in a position where she becomes unemployable in jobs that require honest communication.

> Has she done her IDF service? If so, she should
> be on the "inside" of a number of small
> communities that she could access for immediate
> help. (IDF relationships usually last
> lifetimes.)

I don't know. She moved there in her mid-twenties, and had health issues prior to going not related to her BPD. She was my preemie baby, and struggled with early onset lung illness. She outgrew most of her premature problems, but her stamina wouldn't be enough for the IDF unless she were in an office job.

If I knew more I wouldn't be so much in the dark. It is really a disservice and injustice to me not know what is really going on with her. I cannot fault the rabbi if he's trying to honor his commitment to her not to divulge her confidence. It's just tough not knowing or her wanting me to be part of her life.

Thanks for caring. I'm learning as I go there are no easy answers or always the good and desired outcome as parents we would hope for. That's been hard for me is accepting what I cannot change, and living with the ambiguity of not knowing my own child's welfare because that is what she has willed.

Personally, I would not send money through a third party. I would tell the rabbi, "Please convey to my daughter that I am aware she has been living in Israel and I wish her well. I'm sorry that she has been sick and is going through a hard time. Here is my address, my phone number, and my email. I would be delighted to give her some help, but she needs to contact me directly."

I think it's fine that you would offer her a temporary place to live if necessary. You could also offer her airfare home.

In other words, I would show kindness but I would not coddle her. You haven't done anything that merits her losing trust in you, so she needs to put on her big girl panties and contact you directly.

That makes me uncomfortable too, sending money through a third party. If her need is that dire, she should be able to come to me directly. But she's mentally ill. She isn't all there. What seems normal to you and me doesn't to her. I can't leave her floundering, no more than I want to be taken advantage of.

I guess I'm willing to err on the side of being taken advantage of right now until I have more to go on, because I don't want her feeling like I don't care - even if with a normal adjusted person there wouldn't be this inability on her part to trust me. She developed a paranoia I saw when she came home her last time here from France that wasn't there before. Maybe it's something more underlying like bi-polar, but I don't have enough to go on to say.

The idea of offering to send her airfare to come home sounds like a plan. Someone else suggested that, and you. I like that idea. I'll present it to the rabbi, to forward to her. She has all these people who care about her, so hopefully she won't forget that she's loved.

I've considered this as well. The rabbi believes her, and so does my son. At the moment I'm not sure what to believe. I don't want to lose all contact - the fact she's in communication w/son after a 4 year absence sounds like a distress signal to me.

So I'm willing to go out on a (short) limb to do what I can. Without more information to go on it does cause me to question her motives. As someone else pointed out, that may be why she isn't asking me for help. She knows I'd expect more disclosure from her than she's providing.

Because I am 6 kinds of not trusting, I would not send the airfare, I would arrange a ticket. No cash should go from you to anyone other than the airline. I would not trust her to not just cash it in.

Airfare home would be the most I would do if I had a child in this situation. If she's this out of control, she needs to come home.

I agree with this advice. As hard as it is to admit, your daughter does not want you; she only wants your money. Do not send any money. Just send your loved and contact info and then do nothing. Let her lived her life and be prepared to accept her decisions. I know this will be hard. I am a mother too. I have seen too many mothers try, try, try to reach their children until it ruins their health and finances. I have told the story here of my MIL who lost about $500,000 to her daughter and son-in-law.

I have no clue what to suggest. You must feel so helpless!

Is there any possibility of suggesting via the Israeli consulate that your daughter might need a legal guardian, since she may not be able to act in her own best interest?

It sounds like SOMEBODY needs to look after her, since she doesn't seem able to do it herself. There again, I have no idea whose law applies - ours or Israel's, depending on where she holds citizenship now.

There are WAY too many unknowns in this equation. I am so sorry.

(((HUGS)))

That's another idea. I tried contacting the American embassy for Israel months ago to try and help locate my daughter, and the woman basically laughed at me. She was no help at all.

Maybe the Israeli consulate would do more than the American one did. That is a waste of our taxpayer money.

If she becomes unable to care for herself, I'd be in a better position to help her than the government would. The thought of her on some mind numbing drugs would devastate her and me. She has an above average IQ and speaks several languages. She doesn't belong in an institution, but that may be where she ends up or homeless if she does not get the help that she needs.

Hi Amyjo, there's a lot of good advice here. Obviously, none of us has a right answer as your daughter's complex mental health issues will need to be addressed by a trained mental health provider.

My concern is for you. I cannot imagine the helplessness that you feel or the stress this has caused for you. Although the rabbi is bound by ethics not to discuss particulars with you, can you have a healing conversation with him about events from your perspective with the agreement that he'll listen to you without discussing what was told to him in confidence? He sounds like a very caring spiritual leader whom you trust. Perhaps, the two of you can develop support for you in your capacity as a caregiver for your family. He maybe able to help you with any discomfort you may feel.

I agree with Summer that you'll probably want your daughter to know that you are aware she is in Israel. Tevai has some great ideas about living there where she could develop some self-sustaining skills.

You, you daughter, and your rabbi are in my prayers. God's shalom be with you, your spiritual leader, and your family (((((HUGS))))))

Thanks BYU B.

Good ideas. The rabbi I mention here isn't my rabbi. They do know each other however.

My own rabbi is in charge of a much larger congregation. This other one a smaller, but younger congregation. He is the one to whom my daughter has placed her trust apparently.

That has been a pattern of hers since she ran away from home the first time in 2010. Then she was attending a Messianic synagogue in Kansas City, where she took in a few kind souls, before they caught on that she was in more need than what she was telling them initially.

Based on the lies she got involved with since her return from France, 2012, I can only imagine some of the stories she's told him and others. Which was basically a form of character assassination against me, and has put me at a disadvantage when dealing with him because he's been a complete stranger up until we've been corresponding so he can relay my messages to my daughter for me.

He seems to believe me, but I cannot blame him if he doesn't want to get more involved with the situation. It's messy! Borderlines like my daughter just drain the resources and emotional support like a sap. So I don't want to weigh on him like she does. He is her life support, and I'll leave it at that.

She cuts off ties to anyone who shows me sympathy and understanding, based on her past pattern. I don't want to lose him as my bridge to her. If she for a second believes he's on my side, she'll disappear deeper into hiding. I don't know if he understands this about her, but I do. So I'm just tiptoeing on eggshells with the matter.

There's a good book called "Stop walking on eggshells," my family therapist has recommended for handling borderline people like my daughter. It's helpful, but hasn't done anything to improve my relationship with her. I understand what you mean about my feeling helpless about the situation.

Giving her money now is draining my resources at a time I've been planning and looking forward to retirement. So it's going to be a setback for me because it wasn't something I have figured into my budget (my extra income is tied into my retirement account.) If I have to tap out another retirement loan it means I'll have to work longer to pay it back, or when I do retire it will be reduced based on my outstanding loan at the time I leave my job. That sucks. Knowing she doesn't appreciate my efforts to be her mom, and is basically using me, that hurts. Some parents would let their child flounder on the rocks out of tough love. I'm not ready to do that at this moment, but I may.

Thanks for being a RfM pal, BYU B. I appreciate that very much. :))

You can offer to pay her rent directly, through a verifiable, bonafide attorney of her choosing - a mutual intermediary who is legally obligated to distribute the funds as you direct. Ask the rabbi to find such a person.

That's a good idea, except my daughter would refuse that. Plus an attorney will charge for his services, and I cannot afford another expense.

This rabbi is volunteering his time, and has a pastoral relationship with her. He is the bridge, and I trust him as the intermediary between us. I have no reason to believe he'd be in on any scheme of hers, and that he is sincerely trying to help as best he can.

I sent him the money, which he will forward to her.

So sorry you are going through this, Amyjo. Sending positive thoughts your way. Best regards, -ed

Thank you very kindly. I feel like having a good cry.

There's been some excellent advice on this thread.

I also appreciate very much the positive support, prayers, and good wishes from all. :))

Okay, when someone is addicted, you worry about enabling them or setting up feelings of entitlement. This is a mental health situation in which your daughter is legit mentally ill. Supporting her through the rabbi is not enabling her. She's not choosing to be BPD. She can't just stop being BPD anytime she wants to. She can't go to rehab and "dry out." If you're lucky she may decide to get a good psychologist one day who is able and willing to treat the BPD, but in the meantime, you'll have to do whatever you have to do. I don't think this is the same thing as spoiling an entitled teenager or enabling an addict. She needs help and you are able to help, even though it has to be on the down-low for whatever reasons. You do what you need to do.

You're a dogzilla after my own heart. Thanks for relating that. That makes so much sense!

:))

I don't care if the that the Rabbi is a Rabbi. He is an enabler and his interference is NOT really helping the situation. Why do you trust him? Come on.. he puts his pants on the same way as every other human being. Just because he has a 'title' doesn't mean zilch. You have traded your Mormon prophet / apostle / stake pres. / bishop for another breed. That's all.

Through the other contributions/posts you have made here, it is evident that you are extremely intuitive, self confident, and able to see things clearly and have an abundance of common sense. Keep trusting yourself. You know what to do even if it is uncomfortable and painful.

You have received some great suggestions here. Ruminate on them some and explore the one's that seem would be effective. They may work or maybe work a only a bit (or not at all). Some times the best thing to do is nothing.

I love my kids dearly but if I had known the pain I was headed for in having kids, I wonder if I would have gone down that road. They can be a joy and hopefully they are a joy more often than a pain in the a$$. Turning off the caring/love switch does not happen at 18 (or ever).

Sending cyber hugs your way.

Statistically, people with BPD have a 75-85% rate, depending on the estimate, of childhood trauma or abuse. Even more are abused as adults. Consider the fact that you may not know what happened to her. If she was not abused, she is an extreme statistical rarity. You seem to have a very judgmental view of those with BPD, but also it's not your job to provide for her.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2016 10:43AM by woodsmoke.

My ex-husband has BPD, and he didn't raise my daughter.

There is also a strong correlation to heredity over environment, which you have overlooked in past posts.

I don't wish to get into the BPD aspects of heredity vs environment on this thread.

At this point it isn't going to help my daughter's condition, or mine in trying to help her.

I can say with clarity my daughter was neither abused or neglected growing up. She was doted on by an overly protective mother.

Her pattern of behavior mimics my ex-husband's behavior toward his parents at the same age she is now. That indicates to me that heredity plays a much stronger role than environment, in her case.

Just pointing out stats. They're inarguable. Like I said, 75-85%, so there is always that other 15-25%.
Unfortunately you can't know whether your child was abused. I don't have BPD but I did have PTSD, and my parents don't know I was molested. Trauma in adulthood can also trigger BPD in genetically predisposed individuals. You don't know what she's been through. Either way, it is possible but exceedingly rare for someone with BPD to have undergone absolutely no trauma.

Eta: I would check out Linda Baird's "Etiology of Borderline Personality Disorder." Helpful either way.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2016 11:07AM by woodsmoke.

It seems the only one doing the judging here is you. You persistently argue your points about your accurate statistics, while I deal with a situation that has nothing to do with environmental BPD or however you define it. I have not seen any studies citing the stats you do, but even if one exists it does not prove all BPD has the same causation. "[N]ot every abused or neglected child develops BPD, and many patients who have the disorder were never sexually or physically abused." (Psychology Today)

From the Mayo Clinic: "Hereditary predisposition. You may be at a higher risk if a close relative — your mother, father, brother or sister — has the same or a similar disorder."

My daughter has some of the same personality traits as her dad. I wouldn't have imagined for a second his BPD was inherited, until I saw the same antics by my own daughter that he has displayed over the years.

He wasn't around to help raise them. I was. I know for a certainty she wasn't abused or traumatized as a child, other than being born premature and spending months in NICU before she was able to come home. She had doting nurses and doctors there around the clock attending to her, and me from home.

You don't know us from Adam, but continue to insist that your statistics do not lie, while casting judgment on me and my daughter.

That is just being argumentative and redundant and does nothing to help with the current situation at hand. My daughter and I were extremely close up until she had an emotional breakdown while away at college. That is when her BPD came into fruition. Of which you do not understand the whys or wherefores, and I do not wish to coddle you with those details. They do not however involve abuse or trauma, as you continually repeat.

I don't have time right now to read up on Linda Baird, but I think I will follow up.

That being said, Linda Baird's information appears to be old. A lot of research has been done on BPD in recent years (and I do mean very recent) that discounts a lot of past thought on the subject.

For example, the National Institute on Mental Health lists the risk factors for BPD as:

- Genetics
- Environmental and Social Factors
- Brain Factors

Specifically talking about Environmental and Social Factors:

"Many people with BPD report experiencing traumatic life events, such as abuse or abandonment during childhood. Others may have been exposed to unstable relationships and hostile conflicts. However, some people with BPD do not have a history of trauma. And, many people with a history of traumatic life events do not have BPD."

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/borderline-personality-disorder/index.shtml#part_145388

So, "some" not "most" and "some people with BPD do not have a history of trauma", not "exceedingly rare".

"Just pointing out stats. They're inarguable."

Actually people argue stats all the time. There are all kinds of reasons why stats could be inaccurate and new information can be found to counter them. It happens all the time.

I'm interested to see the source for those numbers, how old they are an what they are based on.

Also, as Amyjo points out, just because other cases have experienced that, it does not apply to appear in her case, as it doesn't apply in every case regardless.

Damn Amyjo, sorry to hear this. I know it must eat you up. Tears at both your heart & mind. Guys like to fix things-fast. I've learned that some things are not easily fixable, some not ever. But we try anyway. Sorry you're dealing with this. Make it a point to do something fun or treat yourself to something- anything, big or small, everyday to help offset the stuff you're dealing with. Hang in there.

Thanks for your support and caring/sharing.

:))

Maybe the reason she's in Israel is for the social safety net. The worst thing that can happen is she falls into it.

We hate to see our loved ones suffer, but their suffering is their own cause for a reason. It's nature's therapy.

Personally, I'd love to be a bum in Israel. If I didn't have obligations.

Don't know what I could say to make things any better so I'll just offer you a big old


(((((((((((((( hug )))))))))))))))



:o)

Thanks Shummy! I like cyberhugs too! :))

Hugs, Amy.

I know with those who have BPD, there are not easy solutions, and there is always the lack of trust factor. I have one who has it in my extended family, so I understand the being torn with wanting to help, but also knowing that there is a mental illness that distorts so many things.

Prayers for all of you.

Thank you so much! :))

Sorry you are going through this. It would rip my heart out.

Thanks, cl2.

That's what my daughter has done to mine these past few years.

We were best friends until the shoe dropped her last year in college. From there she's been on a downward spiral, and I wish I knew how to save her from herself.

The LDS church figured prominently in her disappearance and helped to foster her BPD. I also blame myself in measure for allowing her to grow up in the morg for as long as we did. But I didn't know it was all smoke and mirrors before we left. It was finding that out that led to my resignation.

I just wish I'd discovered the truth years sooner than I did. It may have saved my family a boatload of heartache.

She has a mental illness. This is an entirely different issue than a child acting out. My son has some mental illness issues. He lives here with me and his father, almost 31 years old. I've had people tell me to use tough love. Of all people, my dad was extremely authoritarian when we were growing up, but with my son, he always told me to just love him. I feel much safer with him here with me. He's doing much better than he has in the past.

I've had my problems with my daughter (TBM) nd have had periods where we didn't talk. It is UNBEARABLE when that happens. I keep telling myself that I need to just ignore her TBM issues and just love her anyway. I don't want to find myself in your situation and I fear it with either of my kids.

I cannot even begin to imagine what you are going through. I say do what your heart tells you you need to do.

Amyjo, one more thought. I'll give some background on what got me thinking about this.

I have a neighbor, about my age, who is mentally ill. It is obvious to everyone in my building. She has shunned me for many years now over some perceived slight. The last time she talked to me, she called me a "b----." She said the same to a sweet elementary school child in our building. She has hopped from job to job over her lifetime. Her condo has been in the foreclosure process three times within the last year (she managed to pull out of it the first two times, and the 3rd time is still active and TBD.) She is a hoarder. The problem got so bad that the community association had to hire people to clean out her unit (they came in hazmat suits, and said that when they began it was *really* bad.) She has had at least two additional legal issues that I'm aware of within the last two years.

But somehow she keeps it together just enough to keep a roof over her head and food in her belly.

That may unfortunately be what your daughter is looking at unless she gets help. And if she doesn't get help, that may be the best possible outcome.

Now let's think it through. If your daughter stays in Israel, she is going to have to learn to utilize the resources that Tevai mentioned above. So these suggestions need to be forwarded to your daughter. If it works best the the rabbi takes credit for these ideas, so be it.

I personally think it would be best if your daughter returned to the U.S. where you could keep a closer eye on the situation. Offering her airfare and a place to stay IMO would be the best option. If she won't stay with you, perhaps you could arrange for her to stay with another family member.

As for your retirement accounts, *don't* borrow against them. That is your future. Every piece of financial advice that I've seen warns against this. From watching my mom, there will come a point where however much you want to, you will no longer be able to work. Or our age-obsessed culture being what it is, you may be forced out. Remember you can't save someone else unless you save yourself *first.*

Thanks for sharing. I'm having some serious reservations about borrowing against my retirement accounts as well.

It was a God send when my children were younger, and during their college years when I needed to tap that as a resource.

Now not so much as I get closer to retiring. It means I'll need to work longer to pay the loan back, or retire with a reduced (albeit slightly) pension.

For as long as I live, I may need to "be there" for my children, so I am prepared to do that. It just makes it harder to plan for my own future when my wayward ie, Prodigal Child, has lost her way.

I worship with an 89 year old man who has a daughter my age with MS. He keeps working so he can support her to live independently. He says she doesn't appreciate what he does for her either. He wonders if the more we do for our neediest children, the more they resent it.

He does it out of love for his daughter. I get that. He's also a lot wealthier guy than I am a woman (maybe he could adopt me too?) (jkz)

He told me that to encourage me and not to give up on my daughter. :))

I'm so sorry about what's going on in your life with your daughter. I hope everything works out and gets better.
Is she on any meds? I know that it's a controversial topic on this sort of condition. Some can even make the condition worse or create a new condition, even suicidal thoughts.
On the other hand , they can also return them to their former self.
Does she have a boyfriend? A husband would solve most of her problems ( that is one with a good job and gives her positive feedback concerning her relationship with you )

"A husband would solve most of her problems "

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

:: wipes eyes ::


BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

You have GOT to be kidding. Getting married solves nothing, especially when the issue is bona fide mental illness. If anything, that would only serve to make her husband's life miserable as well.

Maybe. There are several people on this board who acknowledge being married to BPD people. They love their spouses, and are able to make it work despite the obvious challenges they face.

I wish I knew if daughter was married. If she is she's gone to great lengths to keep it from me. It would also indicate her husband isn't as supportive of her or her condition as I would hope, if that were the case.

:))

I'm one of the ones here who is married to someone with BPD. I love my wife very much. I've been with her long enough to know who she is beyond the BPD, and we have done a lot of research, studying, and work on how to deal with the BPD when that becomes an issue.

That being said, I have never solved any of her problems. Being married might have actually made somethings worse for her. Having someone around constantly can increase judgmental thoughts, add to already debilitating separation anxiety, and create an environment where one spouse is supporting the other spouse's every need and impulse. It can be a horrible existence.

Having spouse is not going to fix anything. They have to want to fix their problems themselves. Fortunately, my wife did want to fix things and thanks to a lot of very hard work and a lot of therapy, she's much better now. She no longer even meets the criteria for the BPD diagnosis, and we are on much more equal footing in our relationship. Unfortunately, where we are now we are not the norm with couples where one has BPD.

So, I'll agree, dogzilla, even knowing what we're dealing with, "Getting married solves nothing". I truly hope that everyone with Mental Illness can find love, support, the help they need and happiness, and people who know me, know that I'll bend over backwards to help if I can. But marriage isn't the answer, not if they aren't ready and especially if the spouse isn't aware of what they are in for.

I am afraid you may think this is harsh, but I need to say it. Your daughter is an adult. She makes very poor choices and is mentally ill, but she is a legal adult. That is the reason the embassy said they wouldn't help you find her. You raised her as best as you could, but the mental illness owns her now. You need to drop the rope. Israel has a good mental health system, and my recommendation is to tell the rabbi (if that is really what he is) that he should put her in touch with it. Giving her money will enable her to continue on her current path for longer. At a certain point, parents have to accept their children are not under their control any more. Tell the rabbi you love her, but you are not going to enable her poor choices any longer.

BTW, I say this as the parent of a mentally ill child who has basically no contact with us. The advice was the same from therapists and counsellors. I highly recommend you get in touch with a local chapter of NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. They have support groups for parents of mentally ill children.

I agree, that's the best advice yet, a support group would be able to address most of your concerns. It sounds very complicated.My Aunt had a mental illness when I was growing up, had her children put in foster homes, which made her worse. She was out of institutions most of her adult life. I went to some of the day visits with her to some of the coffee houses connected to the mental health centre, the people there had different degrees of mental illness, some seemed normal to me. You can't tell by just seeing someone one time though.

I just sent an e-mail to the rabbi outlining some of the recommendations I adapted from this thread to pass along to my daughter.

I let him know that my resources are finite, while my love for my daughter is not. I'm willing to help. If that means paying for her airfare home for awhile, that sounds more cost effective than writing out blank checks when she needs money with no more info on her than I have now, which is practically zilch.

Explained to the rabbi what I'm both willing and able to do, and to please forward that onto my daughter, with my blessings for her health and recovery.

It is up to her to do that. I am uncomfortable bleeding my own resources at a time my retirement is looming in the next several years. Taking out a retirement loan several years ago was doable moreso than now. They take five years each to repay.

I'm scheduled to retire in 2021. That puts me right on the wire, with no guarantee that the money I'm sending her is really going towards her getting help or recovery.

It may be me acting on my own sense of survival and tough love. I want to help where I can. I do not wish to be a sponge she can squeeze dry. That isn't helping her in the long run. And it sure as heck isn't going to help me either.

Thanks for all the sharing and caring advice peeps. I do appreciate it. The feedback got me thinking of other options besides just sending money to the rabbi to forward to her with no strings attached.

:))

That sounds like a reasonable and balanced approach, Amyjo. I'm glad you were able to come up with a compromise solution with which you will be comfortable.

I would add, since it is not *exactly* what she wanted, you may receive an ultimatum-type response: all or nothing. Please stick to your plan. If you don't take care of your future, you will be in no position to help her with hers. Her first response may take some time for her to moderate, or the rabbi can work on her, some.

God, how I feel for you. I look at my babies and think that raising them is basically a 21-year commitment, give or take a year or so. Your post reinforces just how unrealistic those expectations may be. I can get lucky, or, on the other hand . . .

My wife has cystic fibrosis. She's married to me, obviously, since she's my wife (DUH), but her parents' job will never end. i either have to work to support us, or someone else has to support us while I stay home with her the many times she needs care. That someone else is usually one or both of her parents. They pay for a nanny 40 hours a week because we certainly can't afford one, and there are times my wife cannot manage the babies on her own.Someday I'll bring in a decent salary, but not yet. I'm still a surgical fellow, and we're not paid especially well. A person could say that it was very stupid of us to reproduce, but it was my wife's heart's desire, and the babies give her the will to live through anything.

But at least my wife's parents don't have a daughter hiding from them, yet wanting money. I just don't have any idea what I would do in your situation, Amyjo. Many of us THINK we would practice tough love with our children in such a situation, but how many of us could really bear to imagine our children without shelter, food, or medical care? I can't see myself doing it.

My best advice, and I'm too young to have really sage advice to offer, is perhaps to try a bluff. Tell the rabbi you'll consider helping, but only under certain conditions. You decide the conditions, whether they be that she has to talk to you by phone, she has to disclose her address, or whatever you most want from her right now. If you are like me, this will only work once if she calls your bluff. Then again, you could withhold the financial support for a month to let her think it isn't a bluff. I don't know how tough I could be in your situation. Do remember, and I'm sure you already know this well, that there's little you can do for her if she goes through your money to the point that both of you are homeless and penniless. Again, I'm sure you're sensible enough not to go there.

May God (whatever you conceive Him or Her to be) bless you as you go through this mess,



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/2016 04:15PM by scmd.

Thanks so much to scmd, just sayin, and all the others for your welcome and timely advice.

Since there are no easy answers, I'll try and stick with what's workable.

Scmd, you have my prayers and well wishes too for all you're dealing with and your family.

You're all troopers, in your own way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/2016 04:23PM by Amyjo.

She's no longer your problem. Write her off. I did the same thing to my daughter. At 12:01 a.m. on her 18th birthday, I woke her up and kicked her out. This is what all parents should do.

Just Another Ex-Mo! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Write her off. I
> did the same thing to my daughter. At 12:01 a.m.
> on her 18th birthday, I woke her up and kicked her
> out. This is what all parents should do.

I VERY strongly disagree with this, and I cannot imagine where you (as both a parent, and as a human being) can be coming from on this.