As I understand it, when the Catholic Church considers whether or not to declare a dead person a 'saint', they look for at least three miracles that can be attributed to that person AFTER the person had died.

Do Catholics REALLY believe that dead people perform miracles? Or do they just accept what their church does in this and just say, 'whatever...'?

Wash, rinse, repeat. ad nauseam..

I am an atheist but as a Pole always declare to be ethnically catholic so will try to answer :). Saints are people who were beatified that is church (The Church:) ) recognized that they entered heaven. As those in heaven are in contact with God they can influence his decisions. So they do not make miracles God makes them, sometimes because he was made to by this and that good guy. So people often pray to Saint because this is the easiest way to have God on your side.

It is also important to know that there are specializations. So Church declares that this and that is a patron saint of mentally ill or women who can not conceive. So if u loose something u should pray to Saint Jude cause he helps in desparate situation. Like cops stop you and you can not find your drivers license (maybe you are a Pole and lost it for DUI) So you pray "Saint Jude please help me it has to be somwhere in my car (it is not you have DUI) Than you search your car bam it is under your seat cause the cop who stopped you for drunk driving accidentally dropped it. You are saved because Saint Jude talked with the big guy and he decided to give you one more chance. Than cop tells you sir it is a credit card not a driving license you are to drunk to see a difference can you step out of a vehicle.

Finally answering your question yep catholics believe there is a guy out there in haven that will convince the big guy to help you. My mom when she looses something she always say saint Jude help. There are lots of stories of women who couldnt conceive than they went to church where vial of pope John Paul II blod is and bam twins.


THE POPE was believed to be a holy person during his lifetime so people close to him drained him a bit :) so his blood would help after he is no longer here and can not put his hand on us. Even the Telegraph wrote about it http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/lotus/8319770/Church-leaders-rely-on-late-Pope-John-Paul-IIs-blood-for-Robert-Kubicas-return-to-F1.html (for your knowledge he still is not in F1 :)

Catholics might not believe contraception is evil they might masturbate (a lot) or watch porn (a lot) but they will always pray to this and that guy so he helps them have things done.

THE POPE at least in Poland is believed to be really helpful (I mean yeah Kubica still not in F1 but some things are not as easy curing cancer)I dont know how he works for different nations but he always helps his folk.

I work in a nursing most of the residents are catholics and very often they have pictures of saints.

Oh one more thing most of readers might not understand when the church is talking about miracles it is about the one that are (at least according to church) absolutely confirmed. They were researched by medics there was investigation according to rules of canon law, opinions of theologians all bureaucratical staff.
Small miracles according to most catholics happen every day medical results are better than your MD expected that is only because Saint this or that convinced God. You found extra money that you have forgotten about and now you really need how can it not be a miracle.

I know it is funny and for you seems very odd but I have never had problem with that part of catholicism it is totally harmless and calms people. They do not have to be so scarred because there is someone whom they can ask for help and he will deliver (I mean yea Kubica still not in FI many many years later.

I do not know if all Catholics believe in that stuff but in Poland and among elderly in Chicagoland this is just part of this faith.

So, this would be analogous to Mormons, in that they both seek divine intervention, such as when they lose their keys, for example.

In the Catholic version, they use an intermediary (a previously/declared saint), while the Mormon sends a plea directly to god - through Jesus Christ - to direct them to their keys?

The use of intermediary in Catholicism is explained by sociologists as easier for people to accept. That is God is so distant has so many problems on his head his the boss of bosses you do not bother him because you lost your keys. You ask the regular guy someone who had body of flesh and bones (to use Mormon speak) to intervene. Clerk at the secretary of state screwed up with your staff, you do not call Obama, you call someone in white house on lower position. In mormonism (i guess) Heavenly father and Jesus are more of a regular dudes with wife plenty of kids they are more like you, they will understand if you ask them to help find your keys. They loose their keys every day just like you :)

In Catholicism God and even Jesus are so distant, perfect celibate , the highest person you can bother is Saint especially if you are a woman. That is why the Cult of Mary is so feminized . Mary who also is a Saint understands problems of ordinary mom. She had a rebel kid and you know every woman is a friend to other woman. Big bosses they are guys they plan big stuff but Mary is so humane she is a woman like me (that is how females think) she understands problems with rebelling kid.

The funniest thing at least in Poland is that Cult of Mary is so strong that people call her Goddess (Bozia - God is Bog than you make feminine form of the word in to Bozia). I remember watching volleyball in Poland witch is second most popular sport in Poland after football (soccer). The player one of the best in Poland someone like Kobe Bryant asked what wre his team chances of winning said "Goddess willing we will win" (Co Bozia da to bedzie). Clergy of course is trying to root out use of this term but is quite unsuccessful especially among elderly poorer women.


I guess if you have distant God you need intermediary. In Catholicism you have saints who were regular guys in Islam you have Muhammad who was a sinner as hell in Mormonism you have Jesus because he is wa closer to ordinary folk than in mainstream Christianity.

>>>In Catholicism God and even Jesus...<<<

Catholicism is trinitarian, so they would never use this phrase.

anonculus Wrote:
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> >>>In Catholicism God and even Jesus...<<<
>
> Catholicism is trinitarian, so they would never
> use this phrase.

Not to mention that to think of the Trinity in anthropomorphic terms is more in line with Mormonism think than traditional christianity.

First, as a point of reference, saints are *not* considered to be perfect, sinless individuals, but merely models for Christian behavior.

Catholics like to develop personal relationships with those in the beyond, and will pray to Jesus, Mary, and the saints. As Kolonko stated, they are asking for help and intervention.

It's as if you are having a problem with a product. You happen to know of someone who works at the company that makes the product, and that person specializes in your area of concern. So you give that person a call and explain the problem. That person knows the company far better than you ever could. S/he makes things happen behind the scenes so that your problem is resolved. It's like that.

And yes, Catholics, generally speaking, believe in miracles. After all, they believe that a man who was executed on the cross rose after the third day. Every other miracle is easy after that one.

The cult of the saints is very like the cult of the roman pantheon - each home contained a shrine to that family's favourite god, normally a god who keeps homes safe and people free from sickness. The shrine was attended each day by the woman of the house. Icons associated with other gods were placed around the home, eg a bust of janus, god of beginnings & ends, near the doorway, sons or daughters may have their own shrines to their own favourite gods, slaves had their own gods to pay devotion to. When certain things were desired, sacrifices of devotion would be made to the god/ess in question in the hope they would be pleased and show favour.

Once a year all romans (empire-wide) participated in the cult of the apis bull.

That's also how I think the cult of saints evolved, as Roman religious practices included having a patron god or goddess for occupations, and everyone had a favorite god. When Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, the cult of saints replaced the notion of a patron god. I'm not Catholic myself, as I was raised by an ex-Catholic dad who felt the church was forced down his throat as a child.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/2016 02:59PM by adoylelb.

one of the titles for the pope is pontius maximus - high priest of the entire roman empire; a title previously held by, amongst others, julius caesar before he became caesar - it was a job for life, just like being pope.

So, the pontiff is actually a role within the ancient (pagan) roman system of worship of many gods.

ragnar Wrote:
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> As I understand it, when the Catholic Church
> considers whether or not to declare a dead person
> a 'saint', they look for at least three miracles
> that can be attributed to that person AFTER the
> person had died.

To answer your first point, that has been the practice for many centuries until quite recently. For example, Mother Theresa of Calcutta was recently "fast-tracked" into sainthood. The Church not only did not require the usual three miracles in her case but also, from what I understand, accepted as legit the one "miracle" that has been officially attributed to her but which has little or no evidence to back it up. Believe it or not, the usual practice since at least the 19th century with "verifying" miracles is that outside--that is, non-Catholic--doctors and scientists were also required to be consulted and to affirm that they could not find any medical/natural explanation for a cure. They didn't need to say they believed a miracle or supernatural event has occurred, only that there was not any plausible scientific reason why a "miraculous" event had happened. There had to be a consensus among the consultants, too. It was quite strict.

Anyway, the Mother Theresa canonization seems to be part of a trend started by the late John Paul II (incidentally, he was also fast-tracked into sainthood). He canonized more saints during his pontificate than had been canonized in the previous century--maybe even more. I'm not saying that those candidates didn't deserve sainthood--maybe they did--but I don't know that all of those people had evidence of three miracles verified. That seems unlikely to me if the RC Church had followed the usual rigorous process.

> Do Catholics REALLY believe that dead people
> perform miracles? Or do they just accept what
> their church does in this and just say,
> 'whatever...'?

As someone raised Catholic but now also mostly a "cultural Catholic," I'd have to say that depends on the person. Many definitely believe it, but they might be embarrassed to say that to a non-Catholic or to even to a less religious Catholic.

I agree with what Kolonko said about God seeming too remote or mysterious for many people. I believe if there is a God that She/He/It is more spirit than anything else--some being who is so utterly beyond our comprehension that we can only understand God to a limited degree. So, I totally get why saints appeal to so many people, and not only Catholics. Seriously, I have known non-Catholics who've told me they will, for example, pray to St. Anthony for the proverbial lost car keys, etc., or that they will say St. Anthony's famous prayer for comfort ("Lord, make me an instrument of your peace, etc...").So saints clearly appeal to many people for various reasons. I believe it's because as people who once lived on earth, they are human, or at least were, whereas God is remote.

Also, in reference to anorak's moment about the Roman gods--yes. The Church in fact "repurposed" some cultures' gods and goddesses as saints when a people would convert to Christianity, just as many Catholic holidays or saints' days used to be pagan holidays in Europe.

When my dad was in Scripps Hospital in San Diego, Mother Teresa was there recovering from pneumonia and heart failure (I think it was). She had been in Tijuana meeting and working with the sisters of her order when she became very ill. She was hospitalized there and then transferred to Scripps.

The word was passed from person to person that she would be leaving and if we wanted to see her, we should go to a certain floor. Quietly, doctors, nurses, orderlies, family of patients--all went to quietly watch her and experience her presence.

It was extraordinary the effect she had on everyone. Saint? I don't know. Very special person? Definitely.

bordergirl Wrote:
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> It was extraordinary the effect she had on
> everyone. Saint? I don't know. Very special
> person? Definitely.

Well, someone *imagined* to be "very special" by some -- sure.
But when you read up on her *actual* life and actions...not so "special." In fact, rather vile in many aspects.

But that's the thing: what these "saints" were REALLY like doesn't matter. It's the mythical NOTION of them that matters to the believers. And the ignorant.

The phrase "cult of personality" comes to mind.

I wonder if she would have been okay receiving medical treatment in one of her own health care facilities?

jacob Wrote:
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> I wonder if she would have been okay receiving
> medical treatment in one of her own health care
> facilities?

That she DIDN'T get medical treatment in one of her own facilities tells you all you need to know :)

As I remember, she did receive care in a hospital in Tijuana and was brought to San Diego when her condition worsened.

bordergirl Wrote:
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> As I remember, she did receive care in a hospital
> in Tijuana and was brought to San Diego when her
> condition worsened.

Uh-huh. Not the case with the regular people in her "hospital."

2 miracles.
One for beatification, then another, after beatification, for canonization.

I am a recovering catholic and do not believe in saints.

Gianna Beretta Molla was a doctor wh had cancer when she was pregnant with her fourth child. She would not have a hysterectomy or abortion, even though the church says abortion is permitted when the life of the mother is at risk. She died a week after the birth of the child, leaving 4 children without a mother. Some people think her canonization says the church values the life of an unborn child over the mother.

Now this is a church that used to say that a male fetus received a soul before a female fetus did but that believe was later amended. Its not by pure chance that the Humanae Vitae enclyclical saying artificial birth control was sinful was published just as the pill became available.

I cannot accept that an unborn child has the same value as a mother of three, a doctor, in whom society has invested so much.

I think her canonization and beatification was a sociopolitical maneuver to promote the pro birth cause. I cannot support
an organization that tries to manipulate people's opinions in that way.

One thing I noted about Catholics is there is a wide variation in beliefs among the adherents. People don't seem to get too bent out of shape if other members are skeptical of certain beliefs -- different from what I've seen of Mormons (never one myself, lived in Utah for several years)

The concept of saints is that living people can confirm who is in heaven and able to intercede for those who pray to them. I'm personally very skeptical on both counts, but I know others who are really sold on this concept. I don't argue with them because it doesn't matter to me and if it makes them feel better and relieves some of their anxiety when they can pray to someone in heaven seems like a good thing. My wife, who was raised in more of an evangelical Christian church, thinks this is crazy, but thankfully is polite to my relatives who might mention such things in crisis times.

Yes, that is very true. There is a wide variation of beliefs among Catholics, and all but the most rigid, conservative Catholics are aware of that and tolerant to one degree or another. Catholicism is a "big tent" religion. It has to be.

One topic that hasn't been addressed on this thread is that Catholics have their own version of a "new name." The cool thing is that Catholics get to choose their own name. It is given when a young Catholic is confirmed in the church, generally around middle school.

I simply chose a name that I liked. It is expected that you will choose a saint's name, but given the multitude of saints, that isn't too difficult. Some Catholics choose a saint with whom they feel a special bond. In a way, that saint becomes one's own patron saint.

Another Catholic custom, somewhat out of favor now, is the saint's day. You have your birthday but then you also have the feast day of the saint for whom you are named.

summer Wrote:
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> Some Catholics choose a saint with whom they feel
> a special bond. In a way, that saint becomes one's
> own patron saint.

Something like 95% of the Catholic girls in the Philippines (where Catholics make up around 92% of the population) took "Maria."
As in Mary. As in ever-virgin.

Ironic, yes? ;-)