Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: May 12, 2011 01:57PM

In first grade, I went on a field trip with my class and we were told to be "good little examples of mormonism" because we'd be at a tourist site where out of state non-mormons would see us. The idea was that we kiddies should impress them to join up because they would want to be part an an organiztion which turned out perfectly behaved children.

I think I heard this same mishie pep talk before every church and school trip until I grew up and left the state.

The teachers wanted us to deceive onlookers. In other words, they wanted us to lie.

At that early age, I'd heard about milk before meat and I knew it meant to present information and impressions that would draw in converts and to withhold whatever facts might dissuade them. Again, this is lying in the same way fast talking barkers and magic bean salesmen deceive their victims.

So it isn't just missionaries who lie in mormonism, it's anyone who purposely deceives prospective converts.

I've often thought that the Utah accent might be slower and more deadpan than other accents is in part because mormons have to adjust their conversations to different levels of truthfullness. They have to spin their words appropriately to impress the bishop and keep their temple recommend. They have less reason to impress most close family members or lower level church associates.

Mormons don't tell investigators or inactives the truth when they come calling. They don't say that they were in a meeting talking about the person and how to get them to church. They don't say they were assigned to bring them a bribe and coax them into attending a certain event. Instead, they say they miss the person and love them. They say they were in the area when they felt impressed of the spirit to stop in and give them a loaf of bread they just happened to have with them.

I don't think missionaries need to feel terribly guilty about the lies they told on their missions, at least not if they've given up deceitfulness.

Nor do I think former "every member's a missionary-types" should let it bother them after they've recovered.

But what might be a good idea is for exmos to realize that they were once caught in a plan of deceit. Mormons might not think that they're liars, but lying to oneself isn't usually healthy. Better to come clean and breath the fresh air of honesty than to deny the deceptions mormonism once required of us all.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: derrida ( )
Date: May 12, 2011 03:29PM

If I dropped by a member's house and started to tell the person the truth about the church and its many falsehoods, saying I had been impressed to do so, they would not take that so well would they? Yet they pull the exact same crap, mutatis mutandis, on us.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: A ANON ( )
Date: May 12, 2011 03:39PM

From a post a few days ago:

Date: May 05, 2011 09:01AM


"...It is not unusual to have a missionary say, “How can I bear testimony until I get one? How can I testify that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, and that the gospel is true? If I do not have such a testimony, would it not be dishonest?”
Oh, if I could teach you this one principle. A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it!...”

-- B.K.P

In other words: Lie until it no longer feels like you are lying.
Packer seems to feel that because he personally "knows" the church is true, there is no problem. These missionaries are stating a fact that they will eventually know is a fact. It's just a tecnicality that they don't happen to know it yet.

This leads to the common saying: "Fake it 'til you make it."

In reality it's just Bearing False Witness which Packer's own Bible forbids!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: May 12, 2011 03:45PM

I guess lying for the Lord isn't lying, huh?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Elder George Carlin ( )
Date: May 12, 2011 03:47PM

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Elder George Carlin ( )
Date: May 12, 2011 03:52PM

I'm glad to be out of this dishonest, mind-f*** of an organization.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: kiwimum ( )
Date: May 12, 2011 08:25PM

I've always had a problem with that - "fake it til you make it". Lying does not sit right with me (and I'm sure a lot of people), yet here is a so-called Apostle of the Lord telling us to lie.

Even in my most TBM days I was very reluctant to bear testimony (only did it about 2-3 times I think), because I just did not feel comfortable standing in front of people and lying. Now that I think about it, I guess I never really had a testimony. Might've told myself I did once upon a time, but deep down I never really "knew" - not like everyone else seemed to.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Rod ( )
Date: May 12, 2011 03:51PM

, Joseph lying to those outside the inner circle about polygamy, other leaders lying to congress about polygamy - lying is intrinsic to the culture of TSCC. Interesting take on the UT accent too, hmmmm. Wouldn't surprise me.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: A ANON ( )
Date: May 12, 2011 06:19PM

From an old post:

In Nauvoo the problem was that Joseph Smith created TWO churches not ONE, and these two churches completely CONTRADICTED each other.

This is one of the most salient proofs that Smith was NOT following any divine direction; that he was lying. One "Secret Church" was hiding inside the other; this inner church believed in and practiced polygamy -- supposedly by God's direct commandment. This is documented by the Mormon church itself (LDS genealogy library).

The second "Public Church" was being told that God DIDN'T condone polygamy and that polygamy WASN'T being practiced. This too is documented by the Mormon church itself (Nauvoo City Council records, Smith own statements, The D&C as it existed then, the Book of Mormon, and local Church Newspapers etc.)!

This was inescapable lying! Two opposite beliefs and practices existed in Nauvoo at THE SAME TIME and both of these contradictory laws were supposedly given through God's revealed will!

That is impossible.

The publisher of the “Nauvoo Expositor” brought this impossibility (lie) to light. Smith and the City Leaders destroyed his business property without due legal process (caused a riot). Smith went to jail for it and was killed there.

The church eventually divided: One group (Utah Mormons) followed Smith's polygamy church; The other (RLDS) followed Emma Smith's non-polygamy believers -- and BOTH groups could justify their beliefs due to Smith's contradictory words!

Was this the evidence of a "house of order"? Was this the work of a just and consistent God? No! This was obviously hypocrisy; It was exactly what Christ described as the evidence of a False Prophet! Christ said to forget, totallyn disregard, any nice sheep-like appearances and manners because there is often a wolf hiding inside. In Matthew Christ said to sternly investigate what these "prophets" ACTUALLY DO. That's ALL that really counts -- ACTIONS!

Christ said: "By their FRUITS ye shall know them."

Joseph Smith's fruits are that he said ONE thing, but did the OPPOSITE, that's that! And it's documented by Mormonism's OWN records (if you do the right searching).
To this very day the LDS Church can't admit that polygamy was practiced in Nauvoo (especially by Smith himself) because it requires the following:

That either Smith was a liar, or that God was a liar!

What's the choice?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: anonymouse ( )
Date: May 12, 2011 06:54PM

Your original idea makes sense -- of course cults program members. What else would one expect? But the rest of your post had nothing to do with that original idea. Our ideas of what constitutes "good behavior" are rooted in psychobiology. We are a social species; we have no choice but to live in social groups. As a result, we place a high value on behaviors that communicate an individual's willingness to cooperate with others, to restrain personal impulses for the good of others, etc. In other words: ALL good behavior is, on some level, manipulative. It's intended to elicit particular responses from others. "I'm being nice, so you should be nice to me." That is not uniquely Mormon. It's just the way humans are.

We all know that children (or adults, for that matter) are not consistently well-behaved. We all know when someone is deliberately on their best behavior. We all know it's part of the social-animal games we play. The fact that you occasionally behave badly hardly means that when you ARE behaving well, you're lying.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: May 12, 2011 07:00PM

Perhaps it was indended for anothe thread.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: blindmag ( )
Date: May 13, 2011 07:34AM

It may be the reason behind good behaveiour and what constitutes good behaviour.

Like Mormon Modesty being modest isnt just to be modest its to show others that your being modest. Mormons tend to like to rub modesty into others faces.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: May 12, 2011 07:01PM

Yesterday's News, folks.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2011 07:01PM by guynoirprivateeye.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: May 12, 2011 08:00PM

If you testify to something that you know to be false you ARE COMMITING PERJURY!!!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: May 12, 2011 08:34PM

I can't look it up just now, but there was a link here once to a missionary presentation by a sales expert. His point was that, if a person asks a pointed question that you don't want to answer, it just derails your message. So answer the question that they "should" have asked.

This is, of course, dishonest. The dishonesty means less if you're trying to sell a Hoover vacuum over a Bissell product, or a Ford instead of a Chevy. If instead you are trying to convert someone's religious lifestyle for the remainder of their life, it should be necessary to answer all questions asked.

I don't really believe in god, but I'd at least have to say that a Christian god, at least, would want us to be perfectly honest. If the Mormons were the "true church of God," they would be only too happy to sit you down and patiently explain everything to you. There would be no secrets, no prevaricating, and no obfuscating. When you went off to the temple for the first time and took on covenants like the Law of God, the Law of Chastity, and the all-important Law of Consecration (giving everything you have to the LDS church), you would have been prepped and ready. But the first-time temple ordinances have always been designed as a well-conceived trap, which is one of the Mormons' most dishonest moves that they put on novice members.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: deb ( )
Date: May 12, 2011 09:47PM

wow!!! it don't make sense. myself, when i was so sold on lds and the "eternal marriage" lying to gain people into your faith. doesn't make any sense.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: The Motrix ( )
Date: May 13, 2011 10:47AM

Holy shit, I'm glad I didn't go to BYU! That is wrong on so many level -- what a manipulative prick!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: CA girl ( )
Date: May 12, 2011 08:40PM

The sheer fact that there is a Mormon ideal (think Molly Mormon and Peter Priesthood) that all need to conform to - that there is only one true way to live - necessarily makes people liars. Whenever you live an image instead of your true self, you are living a lie. That's not to say that you can't set goals or have people you emulate. But to pretend all your life to be something you aren't is living a lie. Period.

Lying to ourselves is more deeply ingrained than lying to others. -- Fyodor Dostoevski

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: May 12, 2011 09:27PM

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: deb ( )
Date: May 12, 2011 10:31PM

and it is knowingly, or is it brainwashing so they think it's ok?????

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: May 13, 2011 04:36AM

They're taking on a distorted parental role of prodding, pushing, and manipulating lesser individuals who "need to be brought along." They think whoever they lie to will someday thank them. Those who don't, aren't worth the worry as they'll never be part of the mormon heaven.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: deb ( )
Date: May 12, 2011 10:49PM

I can credit the mishies which were coming by here. I'd requested when transfers came up that my name, phone # etc didn't go out. I may be wrong, but i believe that even though they didn't leave me alone for app 4 months after i'd cancelled my commitment when asked i believe out of respect of sort, they did see my name and number wasn't displayed.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Observer ( )
Date: May 12, 2011 11:09PM

I'm much more concerned with what prospective members ( and even members ) are not told than I am with putting on a happy face. After all, it's human nature to want people to see us at our best - we all do it. The school asks its students to behave well whilst on a field trip. Mom asks her kids to behave well when dad's boss comes over for supper, etc etc. We're not lying, but trying to show our better side, which I think is okay. What does verge on lying is not acknowledging the true history and culture of the church and encouraging people not to study non-church literature etc.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: sweettasteofwoman ( )
Date: May 13, 2011 01:13AM

lie deceive sidestep=lds

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: kiwimum ( )
Date: May 13, 2011 01:22AM

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: May 13, 2011 04:29AM

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: A ANON ( )
Date: May 13, 2011 11:17AM

Lying effectively to others starts with lying to yourself.

The church encourages this by blurring the line between what you actually know and what you only believe. To Most well-indoctrinated Mormons “believing becomes knowing” and they learn from their earliest years to see no distinction between the two. They don’t really know what lying is.

The best example was President Hinckley himself:

Hinckley lied about Polygamy not being doctrinal and he further stated that it started “...when the saints moved west”, i.e. not in the Nauvoo period with Joseph Smith.

Hinckley also said that the “As man now is, God once was...” doctrine is nothing more than a couplet.

Hinckley also said that the church feels that only those who contribute should be allowed to see the church’s finances.

He was so shielded and isolated and living in the past that he had no idea that the old answers that he use to use as a missionary would never work on the world stage. He had lied to himself so often, he could no longer see issues objectively the way the general media audience sees them.

Lying had become instinctive and natural.

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In

Sorry, you can't reply to this topic. It has been closed. Please start another thread and continue the conversation.