So I was in Salt Lake a few weeks ago digging up the past and searching for Mormon/Gentile historical relics, good ones and some not so good. I ended up on the University campus and went up to Fort Douglas, high on the East bench. The Monument to the dead Soldiers of the Battle of Bear River has been vandalized and looks like it hasn't been updated since the 1800s. I just can't get this out of my mind and have been troubled about it for weeks. I would like all of your opinions, should all veterans be honored? Or just from wars that were politically correct?

Briefly the history of these soldiers is that they came in 1859 to calm down the Mormon problem, put an end to blood atonement, violence, and injustice that the bretheren were inflicting. They also were asked by the church to make Cache Valley a safe place and deal with the Indians. They went up to the Bear River, fought a battle and secured the peace. Shortly after tens of thousands were able to settle Northern Utah, Cache Valley, Idaho, Star Valley, Montana, Alberta Canada. Thousands were now able to transverse the Oregon trail on into Washington and Northern California without fear of the Indians. I don't think any of us would be here without the brave men that fought the Battle of Bear River.

So how did these soldiers "Deal" with the Indians. Perhaps they offered a good fair price for their land and the "Indians" went away to live in California happily ever after.

Also lets keep Thanksgiving historically accurate as well. In the US we celebrate the liberation of the US from Lord Gobble a giant 50 foot turkey. In 1863 the Brother of Abraham Lincoln called Joseph Smith, rode into battle on his giant eagle to smite Lord Gobble. Ever since we eat the descendants of Lord Gobble (Not Joseph Smith) and parade our most powerful cartoon characters through the streets of New York in a show of power so that we are not lifted up in our own pride and turned black or red or some other evil color.

Amen



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2016 08:56AM by davetheseer.

And that's just fact.

While I greatly respect the brave men and women who put their lives on the line to protect us and our freedoms, it's hard to get teary-eyed over people who, long ago, went around killing Native Americans so they'd get out of our way and let us take their land and nearly wipe them out.

Hopefully such "monuments" can serve as reminders of the stupid, brutal things our ancestors did, and that we can learn from those stupid, brutal things.

Oh, and...there aren't any politically correct wars. War is always a failure of reason and a resort to brutality. Personally I'll be happy when we erect monuments to peacemakers rather than soldiers.

Peace doesn't generate revenue to the same degree wars do. So sayeth the shakers @ the Military Industrial Complex who have spurred wars in lieu of bread and butter.

That was taught in Macroeconomics 101.

True, but only from a limited perspective (that of the greedy "military industrial complex").

Putting the same money into infrastructure, small businesses, better wages, etc. is a long-term investment that pays long-term dividends, and returns more money to the economy than they take. Putting money into weapons and wars is a dead-end (pun intended) that only enriches the weapon sellers.

Very true. It's the greedy war hawks that make up the 1% of the elite driving the economy in times of war *and* in peace.

They are not typically far sighted, but short sighted on what they can reap in the least amount of time in terms of making a "killing." Be it oil, stocks, (and tragically, blood.) We are all dispensable to them, because we aren't securities. Human loss of life to them is collateral damage. Expendable and necessary to make the wheels of commerce keep churning.

I'd like to believe that as a society we've learned from history. All it takes is one rogue in power to undo what's come before in terms of progress.

The investment into the weapons that prevented South Korea from becoming part of the north wasn't a "dead end", and paid off many times over in life, liberty and prosperity, especially for the S. Koreans. Your statement is only true sometimes.

Are the macroeconomics 101 people ignoring the fact that every major military action since 1960 has been followed by a massive recession?

In this next installment:

Poopstone justifies the genocide of other mass murderers such as Pol Pot, Mao Zedong and thoughtfully examines whether or not the genocide and rape camps of Bosnians was a politically correct war.

Hee-hee!

It's funny because I didn't know them.

He wins the Norman Arbuthnot Award for this week.

Mao Zedong: "Gimme a break. It was only 40 million. It's not like it even thinned out the population."

Pol Pot: "You know, I just didn't like them, with their hoity-toity high school educations and all."

"Don't blame ME for the murder and mass rape of thousands of Bosnians! This was the result of the fall of Communism! It was bound to happen and all those Bosnians that survived wouldn't have found refuge in other countries not torn apart by war and instability."

but seriously, I guess what gets me is the personal connection I have to these brave soldiers. My family came to Salt Lake in 1855 and had close connections with Conner and worked for him, and started the early mining and gravel pits. We did business with the gentiles which got the bretheren really upset at my people. Brigham was personally mad at my people, from what I've been told.

But it's mormon families like my pioneer ancestors that quietly accepted foreigners and made friendships in those early days before the railroads that made it possible for diversity in the later decades of the 19th century and for the Catholics, Methodists and Episcopals to build their churches in the valleys of Utah.

And that all justifies genocide, right? The ends justify the means?

You know it was because of Hitler that we have freeways, volkswagons, eye surgeries, advanced medicines, computers, theories of the Arian race which are almost certainly true, and atomic bombs and technology. From very bad men come very good things! Let's all be thankful?

Yeah, because no one would have invented those similar items and technology had Hitler not committed the Holocaust.

In poopstone's final installment, he invoked full Godwin and paints Hitler as not such a bad guy, with a section on how black Americans should be grateful their ancestors were forced into slavery.

Do you ever have anything to say that's not bigoted?

Please elaborate the "theories on the 'Arian' race." I can always use a good laugh.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2016 06:56PM by Itzpapalotl.

Itzpapalotl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Please elaborate the "theories on the 'Arian'
> race." I can always use a good laugh.

Oh, please don't get him to elaborate. Please.

I mean, since there is no "Arian[sic] race" at all, why bother?

No, no, no, IICHTK. I *really* want to read his brilliant insight and well-founded research. He has such well thought out, intelligent ideas about everything else, this should be a hoot.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2016 07:04PM by Itzpapalotl.

Itzpapalotl ( ), I enjoy a good laugh too, but I reserve laughing to amusing things, not information that I don't understand, or don't like. I'm still waiting for your opinion about the topic, not on how dumb you think I am. :^)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2016 08:07AM by poopstone.

Ignorance and bigotry is usually disgusting, but in your case I have a hearty chuckle at it.

Still waiting on your research that's not outdated at all.

I don't think you're dumb, I think you're willfully blind and ignorant and it's something that should be mocked since reason doesn't work.

There have been Neo-Nazi's that turned around and realized the errors of their delusions and actions, so maybe there's hope for you?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2016 08:49AM by Itzpapalotl.

That escalated quickly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed5Bh_DbHPU

"Always Look on the Bright Side of Life!"

There is no Arian race. The Catholic Church deemed them heretics and made them convert or die. I think you (poopstone) mean "Aryan" race. These "theories" are bollocks. Ask any anthropologist (unless you think they're all in a librul conspiracy to destroy the white race, in which case, you can consult the anthropologists at the University of Assfax).

And oh, technology existed for thousands of years before the washed-up-Viennese-painter-turned-murderous-anti-Semite.

In my opinion there's a difference between the politicians that start the wars and the soldiers that fight them. Maybe I'm a bit naïve, but I think most of the soldiers fighting wars are doing it to serve their country. The way I look at it, the soldiers on both sides of the Civil War, for example, should be honored. They left their homes and families when asked to (or drafted) by their leaders.

Same with World War II vets from all the countries involved. The majority of people fighting on both sides were young men drafted by their governments. My Dad was a young guy from rural Utah who was sent to the Phillipines.

The leaders that start the wars are in an entirely different class. Hitler and his henchman deserve every bad thing ever said and written about them. And the U.S. leadership in just about every war is also guilty of unsavory acts. They just happened to be on the winning side and weren't held accountable for their bad behavior when the wars ended.

So I don't think we should honor wars (except maybe the Revolutionary War? I'm not sure about that one.) And we shouldn't honor the people who start wars. But the people who get stuck serving in the wars their leaders started should be honored.

What all military forces need are soldiers who will stand up for human rights, and leave anytime they are forced to do illegal acts. American forces have never stood up to the challenge any more than the soldiers of any other country, whether it was murdering Native American children or rice farmers in Vietnam. It's just that, for the most part, the US government has not asked their soldiers to commit as many crimes as those in any other country guilty of war crimes. So basically, I don't agree and believe you are naive on part of the account. Many are "stuck," as you say, serving leaders. But I can't celebrate the service of any soldier or soldiers who committed crimes against humanity. They should have stood up. They should have challenged. All it took was one American helicopter pilot, for instance, to stop the My Lai massacre as it was happening. (And remember, BTW, that one of the guilty soldiers at My Lai was LDS. He was a returned missionary. Should I honor him?)

Very good point, The way I see it is that soldiers who follow orders should be honored whether it's WWII, Battle of Bear River, Confederates in the Civil War, Vietnam.

I can't don't know about the Nazis? Do Germans honor them still? probably not?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malmedy_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palawan_massacre

After all they were following orders.

It is surprising the similarities between something that is worthless and priceless.

It is a long standing model of the morally superior USA to stand up and fight for the downtrodden and suppressed by walking all over people and suppressing them.

War is not a value proposition.

I for one honor them not because of their cause but because of their dedication and loyalty. I just cannot support the defense of liberty when that defense disrespects the liberty of others.

Because of Goodwin's Law I must add one caveat. Sometimes the right thing to do is bad.

Memorials to honor the fallen soldiers are not for those soldiers. They are for the living. They may provide some comfort to grieving families, but soldiers themselves are dead and have no use for them.

In a few cases, these memorials celebrate those who fought back after an attack. That is to be remembered.

But, what most of these memorials do is usually tell half of a story such as the memorials to anyone who massacred the Native Americans. That "half story" justifies and even glorifies war and it's atrocities.

We need less memorials, and more learning from our mistakes as societies. Our children need to be taught the whole picture including the innocent slaughtered victims and the innocent soldiers duped into believing their cause was just by the profiteers who started the war.

The atrocity on the Native Americans was horrendous. Memorials should, again, be about the whole picture and no one glorified.

And for other wars, the only memorial should be helping veterans put their lives back together.

No one really needs a trophy case.

Never one to disappoint Itzpapalotl and others :)... It's true sometimes 'bad' men aren't as 'bad' as the media and popular culture paint them to be. Think of John D. Lee, He is the founder of St. George, He was one of the earliest explorers of the Grand Canyon, He made friendly relations with the Indians, He was very friendly to travelers and always helped people and gave lodging and food away to everyone who ever stopped by his house. He had a numerous posterity, today some of the most stalwart, fine, upstanding people in all Utah!

And yes also was part of an unfortunate murder of a few Arkansanians at MMM. St. George refuses to put his statue up and honor him. They would rather honor the history that is politically correct and not trigger anyone?

It's adorable how you think good actions cancel out the atrocities. Keep trying, poopstone... Maybe someday you'll have a thought that isn't based in racism, willful ignorance, sexism, homophobia.

poopstone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And yes also was part of an unfortunate murder of
> a few Arkansanians at MMM. St. George refuses to
> put his statue up and honor him. They would rather
> honor the history that is politically correct and
> not trigger anyone?

The factual (not 'politically correct') history is that he murdered hundreds of men, women, and children; blamed "indians," covered it up, lied about it, and (finally) admitted a small part, and was convicted and executed for doing so.
And you want to 'honor' this guy? Because he had offspring?

Dude, you have serious issues.

I swear to Jebus it's like reading a 12 year old on Stormfront justify and "reason."

So what would you like instead? Wasn't it unfortunate for all these Arkansans to get killed? Should the Lees be taxed more heavily for their infamous grandfather? Let's get concrete here... How do you actually interpret this?

How about not lauding mass murderers in the first place? Are you going to justify what John Wayne Gacy did, too, because he made people laugh?

It wasn't a battle. It was the single largest massacre in the American west.

As for the question should those soldiers be honored, consider another massacre and officers that refused to participate and ordered their men to stand down.

http://www.indianz.com/News/2016/11/30/billy-stratton-the-soldiers-who-refused.asp

I have mixed feelings.

I was a military officer but got out partly because our wars are not defensive, and more about money and power.

When someone thanks me for my service, I want to laugh. I had a good paying desk job that was lower risk than many occupations, including logging I did when younger. A logger friend I worked with was killed and left 2 kids behind. No medal for him.

Nine years in the Air Force and I never heard anyone speak of fighting for freedom. Mostly about projecting global power and self-promotion - getting more rank and benefits.

On the other hand, I guess I'm benefitting from unjust wars, as I own land once belonging to the natives. I don't see too many of those complaining about our treatment of natives offering their land back.

Maybe we are just animals - the strongest wins.

Very good point, We have this undercurrent today in society of pointing the finger at the US army, and disrespecting past historical soldiers and leaders. It's part of the culture in mass media today of pretending that the "white man" is stupid and a blundering fool. They are constantly looking for ways to find fault and tear down successful males. I guess it sells? People want a reason to hate successful legacies? something to do with jelousy.

But Ya I notice this too, All of us (Indians as well) enjoy privilege from what took place with Manifest Destiny, Some with very loud mouths say how bad it all was, etc, but no one is giving up their land or bank accounts to the memory of past injustices, lol!

Having a balanced view of history would be a good start.

Please explain in depth why you think Natives have "privilege" because of Manifest Destiny.

How is it that anyone except white settlers enjoyed "privileges" of Manifest Destiny? How exactly was it a "destiny" in the first place? And who actually manifested it? God? God spoke to white people, told white people that this was their land? Or is it possible that some misled whites just insisted that God was good with it? Please offer an explanation.

Wherein did First Nations benefit exactly from Manifest Destiny? Did they, in fact, yearn to replace their native languages with English or another colonial language? Or did they hope to thin out their populations a bit by absorbing foreign diseases, like measles? Please give at least two examples.

You'd make a great Mormon. Why ever did you leave?

Instead of making asinine, simple suggestions to fix extraordinarily complex social issues, hows about YOU gather up the money to buy a parcel of land, hire a sculptor, and erect a fanboy statue to your murderous hero? Or would you rather just complain and whine in your safe space of ignorance that the loudmouths aren't playing very nice?

How are people who live in relative and absolute poverty with no land ownership supposed to give it back?

ETA: Just in case anyone thinks I'm being too harsh, this is response to a pattern of continuous bigoted ignorance spewed by this poster. If it's not racist, it's sexist, if it's not sexist, it's homophobic. Like cludgie, I can't quite figure out why he even left the cult when it's such a good fit for him and what the hell he's doing here.

He could have simply made it about the vandalism of a memorial art piece, but he just has to throw a little nastiness in for good measure.

When you have lived in the 4 Corners and dealt first hand with what the 500 Year War on Colonialism has wrought, it's tiresome to read this over and over from people online and IRL who don't have the desire to better educate themselves, especially when they throw out buzzwords that they don't actually comprehend the meaning of such as political correctness or triggers. When you've been told constantly as a child that the reason you have dark hair and eyes and brown skin is because your ancestors were evil, you get pretty fed up with this crap after awhile. Try watching dozens of Native kids freeze their asses off daily because of the high poverty levels here and their parents can't afford to get them a warm jacket or even gloves and not be disgusted by these kinds of views. When their school lunches consist of cheese melted on a hot dog bun (no hot dog) with over boiled greens it becomes demoralizing when you understand their brain development and general health is at risk. And being part of the working poor and a student with no assets to your name will make you feel pretty helpless as you gather meager supplies to send to Standing Rock, all the while wondering if your fellow Native peoples in this country will ever receive justice and equal treatment.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2016 11:11PM by Itzpapalotl.

sorry to see your perspective, seems like you hate America and progress, but that's what's great about this place is that we all can express our views and get involved persuade others, and what's best for our nation will come out in the end on voting day.

But by calling people names not many will be swayed, sorry...

Blah, blah, hate "you hate America." Surprising you didn't throw in the "Why don't you just leave cliche." How clever and original and totally accurate too! It's like, you can't even love your country but see the problems for what they are and fight for equality. Nope, it's just that simple.

Calling you names? If the shoe fits...Maybe when you start treating other peoples such as women, PoC, and LGBTQ people with respect, you won't be called bigoted and ignorant, which you are the definition of. Reason and facts don't sway you either, so harsh reality it is.

I'm all for progress when everyone benefits and people aren't living in squalor and poverty and everyone has the same rights and voice in the country.

You have no clue what you're talking about when it comes to Native peoples or their history or needs. Also, Natives driving cars is a red herring and a separate issue from the pipeline, which you clearly know nothing about. Your perspective and opinions are invalid when it comes to other people's experiences.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2016 08:49AM by Itzpapalotl.

HOw does the genocide of 20 million Native Americans count as a benefit to them?

Can you explain that to me?

What kind of benefits are they recieving now at Standing Rock as the government are spraying them with freezing water during their peaceful protest to stop the oil pipeline from running through their sacred Burial land?

Can you explain that to me Poopstone?

very good questions saucie... To my perspective manifest destiny helped Indians because it got them out of the cold. They now have houses with heat, and stoves, canned food, free medical care (which the rest of us pay for), Tribal people get free educations, a real push to get them into careers in hospitality and gambling businesses up in Montana and Idaho. Indians have longer lifespans, now it's past 35 (not like it use to be).

They use to be freezing outside all year wandering the land, scavengering for their daily survival, now they can buy it all at Walmart.

But with the pipeline it's for the benefit of the rest of America so the Sioux should let it happen. Indians all drive cars so they are part of the problem anyway.

You have no clue what you are talking about.

poopstone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...now they can buy it all at Walmart.

Oh, how kind of your ancestors to brutally murder millions of Native Americans so that THEIR ancestors could have the great joy of shopping at Walmart.

Yeah, Walmart excuses all of the land-stealing, treaty-breaking, and near genocide against Native Americans.

Not.

Dude, you need to get out of whatever teeny little whites-only town you live in, and see the world. You might learn some facts, and learn how to not be a bigot.

Don't call him a bigot, IICHTK. It hurts his precious widdle feelings even though it's perfectly ok for him to denigrate women, PoC, and LBGTQ people.

Some people just can't handle the intellectual capacity to understand complex issues so they have to look at through a black and white lens, then use tired cliches and tropes to justify their views.

You must hate America, too, lol. That goes double for you, michealm!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2016 09:56AM by Itzpapalotl.

"You must hate America, too, lol. That goes double for you, michealm!"

LOL. I love America but I also honor the Los San Patricios.

Yes. They should be honored for being human. Not for being soldiers. They're the ones who have to live with it.

You're talking like the only purpose of the statue is to honor soldiers. Art never has just one purpose, and that is especially true in this case.

If it keeps the Bear River Massacre in the public consciousness, that is a good thing. If the public is outraged by what happened, even better. If the expression of their outrage deglorifies war, better still.

Looks like a win-win-win to me. I'm OK with that. Not as good as reading Black Elk Speaks, or Slaughterhouse Five, but at least the statue will have planted a seed.

It is really hard to tell if this post is about vandalized monuments or white nationalist "Alt-Right" propaganda.

The United Daughters of the Confederacy have put up monuments all over the South to honour soldiers they think should be honoured -- but be prepared for the consequences.

You can't walk but a few feet between Confederate monuments in historic cities like Columbia, SC. Even though African-Americans are in the majority there.

And GCHQ? You worked in the donut?

We seem to forget that.....

... that the United States has broken every treaty that was made with the Native American population....

I'm not sure that is a thing to be proud of....