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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 09:02AM

"....Most scholars agree that Jesus probably wasn't born in A.D. 1.

Johannes Kepler tried to tie astronomical anomalies to the Star of Bethlehem, the star in the Gospels that guided the wise men when they came to honor the baby Jesus. His calculations pegged the birth of Jesus at 4 B.C., but that's likely wrong on both historical and astronomical grounds, said Judith Weingarten, an archaeologist and author of the blog Zenobia: Empress of the East. In order for Jesus to have been born during the reign of King Herod, who ruled the province of Judea at the time, the birth was likely closer to 1 B.C., Weingarten said.

Likewise, almost no one thinks Dec. 25 was Jesus' actual birthday. The story of Jesus' resurrection was likely much more important to early Christians than his origin story, and the date didn't even appear in a calendar until A.D. 336. Hints in the Bible, such as the sheep being out in the fields, suggest the weather would have been warmer, so he may have been born in the spring, Witherington said.

Magical star

The Gospel of Matthew describes wise men, or Magi, who come to Bethlehem from the east to honor the baby Jesus, "the king of the Jews," with gifts such as frankincense. Yet no historical records attest to such trips by any Magi at the time, Landau said.

For 2,000 years, countless people have tried to find astronomical anomalies that correspond to the Star of Bethlehem.

"Almost every year has something unusual," Weingarten told Live Science.

But a specific star's movement in the sky can't point to a specific house, Landau told Live Science. In addition, it doesn't make sense that the Magi, who were ostensibly coming from Jerusalem, would have needed a star to guide them to Bethlehem, just 10 miles (16 kilometers) down the road, Weingarten said.

Still, the word "star" at the time would have had more meaning than we currently ascribe to it, Witherington said.

"Most ancient people thought stars were living beings," or angels, Witherington said.

So if the story is read as a living being that appears as an orb of light, guiding the Magi, then historians shouldn't try to tie the star to a recorded astronomical event, but should see it as more of a miraculous local phenomenon, Witherington said. [6 Facts About Jesus]

Slaughter of the innocents

Though King Herod was known as a cruel and fratricidal ruler, no historian mentions the "slaughter of the innocents," in which Herod allegedly killed babies under age 2 in Bethlehem, even though the historian Josephus despised Herod and spared no detail when it came to his atrocities, Weingarten said.

But given that Bethlehem probably had fewer than 1,000 residents, it's possible the slaughter of the innocents involved just three or four babies, Witherington said.

"We're not talking about streets lined with dead babies," Witherington told Live Science. In a world full of brutality and violence, it's not clear the death of a few no-name babies in a sleepy village would have made the history books, Witherington said.

Unmarried parents

Historians tend to agree that Joseph and Mary were unmarried at the time of Jesus's conception – a key point for those who believe in the Virgin Birth. This detail is highlighted in both infancy narratives, and yet it would have been scandalous at the time. That suggests there were stories very early on about Jesus' birth being "irregular," Landau said.

Though some biblical scholars doubt the veracity of the Gospels, that doesn't mean the original writers were lying, per se. The ancients would have viewed the narratives of Jesus' birth as true in a larger sense, even if they played a little fast and loose with the facts, Landau said.

Regardless of how many of the details are true, the stories still have power today.

"Even when the stories are only half believed in our times, they are comforting. Who wants to know that there was no star, no manger, no Magi? Party-poopers — and historians!" Weingarten said."

http://www.livescience.com/49228-nativity-story-facts-history.html?utm_source=notification

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Posted by: Dogblogger ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 09:35AM

Or it is just haggadic midrash to say Christianity was open to everyone.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 03:09PM

Maybe ... if it hadn't been hijacked by Christianity that is ....

Jesus' teachings were inclusive. Christianity is virtually exclusive.

Thanks!

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Posted by: CrispingPin ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 09:42AM

As I understand it, almost all biblical scholars (even orthodox, conservative ones) agree that there are no firsthand accounts of anything from Jesus' life. Everything that was eventually written down had undoubtedly been passed through many iterations of spoken accounts. I'm sure that each generation of a story drifted a bit further away from facts. Stories of his birth are likely further removed from reality than events from his life and teachings.

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Posted by: Puli ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 11:05AM

The timing of Jesus birth is problematic since Matthew says Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great while Luke says Jesus was born when Quirinius was governor of Syria. The problem is that the 2 events don't overlap. Herod the Great died 10 years before Quirinius became governor of Syria.
(see The Secular Web http://infidels.org/library/modern/paul_carlson/nt_contradictions.html )

Religious Tolerance also has an article titled "Myths surrounding Jesus' birth, as interpreted by progressive Christians."
http://www.religioustolerance.org/myths-about-jesus-birth.htm

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Posted by: bobofitz ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 11:15AM

Hi. Steve Benson's post 2 days ago titled, "Paganized Xianity Adopts Xmas..." has some excellent answers to your question. It is well researched and well documented and would be an excellent read for those interested in this subject.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 02:54PM


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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 11:35AM

The accessories that Ralphie wanted on his official Red Ryder BB gun were available, but on a different Daisy BB gun, and he almost *did* shoot his eye out.

So, mostly true.


Wait. What?

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 12:19PM

:) :) :) :)

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Posted by: numbersRus ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 03:19PM


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Posted by: incognitotoday ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 12:17PM

Non of it.

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Posted by: numbersRus ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 03:22PM


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Posted by: Anonish ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 02:16PM

About as much as star wars

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Posted by: Anonish ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 02:17PM

If he was born it was not when they said or where they said. Enough said.

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Posted by: cognitivedissonance ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 02:32PM

Bah, Humbug!

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 02:50PM


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Posted by: randyj ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 03:20PM


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Posted by: ziller ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 02:55PM

the "star" was obviously a space-ship ~

in b 4 ~ the Gospel of According to Matthew : Chapter 2

nobody in and around Jerusalem noticed because they were to bizzy trying not to get they as$$es kicked around by the Romans ~

the shepherds abiding in the fields though ~

keeping watch over their flocks that night ~

they saw the space-ship and quit they jobs ~

and ran into town and found Joseph, Mary and BabyJesus in a barn stall out behind the local Motel 6® ~

in b 4 ~ the Gospel of According to Luke : Chapter 2 ~

~~~

the wise men were from "the East" ~

prolly from Babylon and /or some other Jewish colonies ( still extant ) in India or even Chine ~

the wise men came bearing gifts fit for a King ~ = gold + frankincense + myrrh ~

Joseph died soon after the Holy Family returned from their exile in Egypt and Mary and her son Jesus were financially set-for-life !!! ~

~~~

in b 4 ~ it is all true OPie

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 03:11PM

It depends what you mean by true. As true as LOTR?

My answer: "True enough".

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 03:23PM

LOTR was written by one author.

The Christmas Tale was written by numerous authors, into one cohesive and not so cohesive book known as the bible.

Just not all at the same time. :)

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 03:27PM

LOTR is a true and correct allegory about real events. The details are fiction but the underlining ideas are reality.

Mary getting knocked up by a representation of god and then birthing a god is fiction that has zero basis in reality.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 04:02PM

What real events are those?

I'm not aware it was based on anything other than fiction.

Are you saying it was similarly written in the manner of the Oz series? J. Frank Baum was really writing an allegory of modern day America when he wrote the Wizard of Oz, et al.

JR Tolkien and CS Lewis (both Christian contemporaries who shared similar genres in writing styles,) copied Baum's writing style to some degree.

Whereas with Jesus, "Most theological historians, Christian and non-Christian alike, believe that Jesus really did walk the Earth. They draw that conclusion from textual evidence in the Bible, however, rather than from the odd assortment of relics parading as physical evidence in churches all over Europe.

That's because, from fragments of text written on bits of parchment to overly abundant chips of wood allegedly salvaged from his crucifix, none of the physical evidence of Jesus' life and death hold up to scientific scrutiny. [Who Was Jesus, the Man?]"

http://www.livescience.com/13711-jesus-christ-man-physical-evidence-hold.html

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 03:24PM

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Unmarried parents
>
> Historians tend to agree that Joseph and Mary were
> unmarried at the time of Jesus's conception – a
> key point for those who believe in the Virgin
> Birth. This detail is highlighted in both infancy
> narratives, and yet it would have been scandalous
> at the time. That suggests there were stories very
> early on about Jesus' birth being "irregular,"
> Landau said.

Assuming that a single-person "Jesus" ever existed (which I do not believe), this statement---while it may be true---is also misleading by contemporary, non-Jewish, standards.

In Judaism, there is a difference between the betrothal (in which---by our standards---the "business" deal is made...and this "business deal" is critical in any Jewish marriage contract) and the [later, at least possibly] marriage...

...but the betrothal itself is a life-changing event for the woman especially, in the sense that if the betrothal does not lead to marriage (in instances other than the untimely, and in the male's case, Jewishly-witnessed death of the parties), a "get" (Jewish legal divorce) is required to void the betrothal contract.

Throughout history, and throughout most cultures, many "betrothed" couples DO have sex, and some of that sex does indeed lead to pregnancy. It may not be totally kosher (by any particular culture's standards), but people accept that it is natural and it does happen...and life for that couple, and that community, goes on.

Any "scandal" about a Jewish, legally-betrothed couple expecting a child would be extremely localized and mild, and the greatest reaction would probably be to move the formal marriage date to sooner rather than later. (In contemporary Jewish marriages, both the betrothal and the marriage are done, one-right-after-the-other, in the same ceremony. If you look at a Jewish "wedding" ceremony today, you are actually seeing two different ceremonies coalesced into one.)

This "Mary and Joseph were not married" trope (even if it happened) is, at best, technically true...and not likely to have been a source of any great scandal for anyone back then, assuming that Mary and Joseph were indeed betrothed.

(The other part of this is that the unfortunate prevalence of rape back then is one of the two main reasons why Judaism is, according to Jewish law, passed through the maternal line only. Rape happened, and consensual sex also happened...everyone knew it happened...and babies were often the result. Jews, a people with a strong history of being pragmatic, were pragmatic in this issue, too. It was the later, Christian, writers who took a Jewish situation and viewed it through the prism of Christian eyes and Christian values, because this is the story as they wanted it to be understood.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2016 03:27PM by Tevai.

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Posted by: ziller ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 03:37PM

¿ who was ~ psalm 51:5 ~ ?


"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me"

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 03:58PM

ziller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ¿ who was ~ psalm 51:5 ~ ?
>
>
> "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did
> my mother conceive me"

From Chabad: http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16272/jewish/Chapter-51.htm

[Psalms] 51.5:

"For I know my transgressions, and my sin is always before me."


For context...Psalms 51:1-5:

1. For the conductor, a song of David.

2. When Nathan the prophet came to him when he went to Bath-sheba.

3. Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your kindness; according to Your great mercies, erase my transgressions.

4. Wash me thoroughly [means: mikvah] of my iniquity, and purify me of my sin.

5. For I know my transgressions, and my sin is always before me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2016 03:59PM by Tevai.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 04:03PM

Thanks Tevai, that's very informative.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: December 23, 2016 04:04PM

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks Tevai, that's very informative.

:) :) :)

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