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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 29, 2016 01:53AM

In another thread, RfM poster "perky" made the following fundamentally inaccurate claim about human consciousness:

“No one knows what causes consciousness, so I'm not sure how we can be so sure it goes away when we die--nothing outside the body. . .. [U]ntil someone explains consciousness, I don't see how you can totally discount NDEs.”

(“Re: The ‘NDE" Non-Thunked Have Thoroughly Been Debunked,” by “perky,” RfM discussion board, 26 December 2016, http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1919853,1920268#msg-1920268)

Well, then, whaddya say we explain causes of consciousness? (FIRST SPOILER ALERT: The woo-wooists aren't gonna like this).

In his article, “Souls Do Not Exist: Evidence from Science and Philosophy Against Mind-Boy Dualism,” Vexen Crabtree, under the heading “Consciousness and Complexity,” lays out the non-woo-woo origins of human consciousness (SECOND SPOILER ALERT: Consciousness is a brain-produced reality, not the imagined product of magical creation from beyond the earthly veil).

Crabtree observes:

“The most basic consensus amongst those who study consciousness is that it is a result of the complexity of our brains:

“’The complexity of our nervous system which makes our consciousness possible . . .. [I]t is less obvious whether consciousness was itself adaptive or simply a side-effect or byproduct of a complex nervous system.’ (“Psychology: The Science of Mind and Behavior," by Richard Gross, 1996)

“EEG scans have told us much--including the point during gestation where consciousness first looks like it could have arisen:

“’But when does the magical journey of consciousness begin? Consciousness requires a sophisticated network of highly interconnected components, nerve cells. Its physical substrate, the thalamo-cortical complex that provides consciousness with its highly elaborate content, begins to be in place between the 24th and 28th week of gestation. Roughly two months later synchrony of the electroencephalographic (EEG) rhythm across both cortical hemispheres signals the onset of global neuronal integration. Thus, many of the circuit elements necessary for consciousness are in place by the third trimester.’ (Prof. Christof Koch, 2009)

“But as researchers looked deeper, they found a system so complex that it defied centralization. E. O. Wilson summarizes brilliantly:

“’Consciousness consists of the parallel processing of vast numbers of such coding networks. Many are linked by the synchronized firing of the nerve cells at 40 cycles per second, allowing the simultaneous internal mapping of multiple sensory impressions. . .. Who or what within the brain monitors all this activity? No one. . .. There is not even a Cartesian theater, to use Daniel Dennett's dismissive phrase, no single locus of the brain where the scenarios are played out in coherent form.

"'Instead, there are interlacing patterns of neural activity within and among particular sites throughout the forebrain, from cerebral cortex to other specialized centers of cognition such as the thalamus, amygdala, and hippocampus. There is no single stream of consciousness in which all information is brought together by an executive ego. There are instead multiple streams of activity, some of which contribute momentarily to conscious thought and then phase out. Consciousness is the massive coupled aggregates of such participating circuits.’ ("Consilience: The Unity of Knowledge," by E. O. Wilson, 1998)

"E. O. Wilson also repeats the little expression of the biologist S. J. Singer to sum it all up11 ‘I link, therefore I am.’

“This may all highlight how consciousness is possible, but why did it arise? The psychologist Richard Gross above has already said that it is hard to tell if consciousness is merely a by-product of complexity, or if it specifically evolved. In "Kinds of Minds" by Daniel C. Dennett (1996) the author airs a respectable theory: That consciousness arose as a method for trying to manipulate other individuals' reactions to our actions, therefore 'mapping' their consciousness, therefore leaving space to analyze own reactions too. Combine with words and language and we have a modern, Human, intelligent conscious lifeform being where consciousness awareness is selected for on the basis of the benefits of increased social skills.”


(“Souls Do Not Exist: Evidence,” by Vexen Crabtree, 14 December 2007, http://www.humantruth.info/souls.html)
_____


But wait, There’s more woo-woo just waiting to be wasted by the application of scientific reality.

In another thread dealing with so-called “near-death experiences,” RfM poster “ab” argues for the physical substance of some mythical thing called the human "soul." In this case, “ab” refers to it as “the materiality of the 'soul,'” and recommends an article for reading:

“The ‘Parabola Magazine’ for January [2013] has an article titled ‘The Materiality of the Soul.’ It talks about the argument that has gone on for ages on the seat of the soul--body or elsewhere.

"The argument for the body goes something like: When a part of the brain is damaged then consciousness changes. The argument for ‘located elsewhere’ agrees that damaging a part of the brain does change consciousness but that it is like damaging a radio receiver.

"The body argument and the elsewhere argument both equally well answer the effect of psychoactive drugs and damage to the brain. Only the elsewhere explanation can explain NDE such as reporting seeing things when there is no brain activity that are verified by people present at the time, things that sometimes occur in another room from the body.

“We can only find well less that 10% of the material/energy in the universe that is needed to explain the operation of the university. We humans know so little. ‘The larger the island of knowledge the longer the shore line of mystery.’

"I say that it pays to keep an open mind; otherwise we haven’t really left the mentality of the Mormons.”

(“Re: OT: NPR Interview with Sam Parnia on "After-Death" Experiences,” posted by “ab,” on “Recovery from Mormonism” discussion board, 21 February 2013, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,802142,802411#msg-802411)

Um, “ab,” I say that it pays to keep your "open mind" from falling out of your ears if you're willing to stuff anything into your head, no matter how absurd. Believing in unscientific nonsense IS (to use your phrase), "the mentality of the Mormons." Might want to think about jumping off that train--unless, of course, you think that being “open-minded” means embracing every nutty idea that comes down the track--including the Mormon notion that there really may be a planet Kolob somewhere out there in the Land of Elsewhere.

This is not to say, of course, that you don’t have the equal right to your own ideas. But not all ideas are created equally. The idea of some kind of so-called “materialistic soul” floating around out there in “elsewhere” is without meaningful, observable, replicable, testable, empirical or falsifiable evidence.

Other than that, it's great concept--for fairy tales.

The notion of a "material soul" is a fantasy, a wish, a hope, a tug at the heart that is skipping a beat over the fear of death--these emotions all springing forth as they do from a superstitiously-religious “mentality” that is akin to the belief in the physical existence of Santa’s Workshop at the North Pole (or, if it’s not at the North Pole, then at a yet-to-be-discovered “elsewhere”).

That duly noted, poster “ab" is nonetheless right about one thing: It's the argument about the so-called “seat of the soul” has, in fact, “gone on for ages." (So, too, did the argument over whether the Earth was round or flat; or whether life has macro-evolved from species to species over billions of years. Both issues have been soundly, scientifically settled, so the “gone-on-for-ages” argument no longer is a relevant position to take).

I mean, c’mon, people, wake up and smell the embalming fluid. Let’s look at other claims of paranormalist woo-wooism that include supposedly being able to throw the “weight” of your “soul” around, along with asserting the alleged reality of “souls,” “spirits,” “ghosts,” “night terrors/demonic attacks,” “NDEs/OBEs,” and other pseudo-scientific silliness.

Again, from Crabtree’s article, “Souls Do Not Exist”:

“. . . Our 'minds', 'souls', 'spirit' and consciousness are all physical in nature. Thousands of years of research have shown that our brains comprise and produce our true selves. 'Souls' and 'spirits' do not exist. Our bodies run themselves. We know from cases of brain damage and the effects of psychoactive drugs, that our experiences are caused by physical chemistry acting on our physical neurons in our brains. Our innermost self is our biochemical self.”

He then goes on to, step-by-step, lay out the science behind the imaginary notions of so-called “souls” and “spirits”:

--"The Physical Brain is the Source of Emotions and Personality, Not the 'Soul'

“’If you take a couple of drinks, or smoke some pot, YOU become intoxicated. It is easy to understand how the chemicals in alcohol and cannabis can affect the ticking of your nerve cells. But how can physical reactions in your brain cause the psychological or spiritual YOU to get high? If your mind controls your body how does it do so? When you drive a car, you sit in the driver's seat, you push on the pedals with your feet, and you turn the wheel with your hands.

"If you consider your body to be a biological machine "driven" by your mind, where does the driver ‘sit’? And how does your purely spiritual or psychological ‘mind’ pull the biological strings that make your neurons fire and your muscles move?’ ("Understanding Human Behavior," by James V. McConnel, 1986) . . .

“'Do emotions result from us having a "soul," or merely from the laws of nature? Degenerative diseases of the brain that erode personality, and cases where brain damage causes sudden changes in character, are both only possible if character itself is biological.

“’Mood disorders and mind-altering drugs indicate that the sources of feelings are biochemical. Inherited mood disorders and developmental diseases show us that personality is driven by biology. Depression, love, niceness, politeness, aggression, basic drives, abstract thinking, judgement, patience, considered behavior, instincts, memories, language construction and comprehension, and every emotion, have turned out to have biochemical causes, not spiritual ones, and can all be radically affected by brain damage and brain surgery.

“’If there was a "soul," brain damage could not also damage our emotional feelings, but it does. Electrical stimulation of the brain causes actual desire to arise instantly. If memory, behavior and emotions are all controlled by the physical brain, what is a soul for? It seems that there isn't anything for a soul to do--it certainly does not control behavior or character, and any free will it exerts is promptly overridden by biological chemistry, hence why so many diseases have an uncontrollable effect on personality. Modern science proves that the idea of souls is misguided. Everything is biological.' ("Emotions Without Souls: How Biochemistry and Neurology Account for Feelings," by Vexen Crabtree, 1999) . . .

“’Virtually all contemporary scientists and philosopher’s expert on the subject agree that the mind, which comprises consciousness and rational process, is the brain at work. They have rejected the mind-brain dualism of René Descartes, who in “Meditations” (1642) concluded that 'by the divine power the mind can exist without the body and the body without the mind.’ ("Consilience: The Unity of Knowledge,” by E. O. Wilson, 1998)

“Our brainstem controls the impulses that are sent to our body. Our muscles, glands, hormone secretions, skin sensitivity, organ action, heart rate and thousands of other actions are all controlled by our nervous system, which is managed by our brains.

"So, if we damage a part of our brain we can impair our ability to control our bodies. If we damage our medulla, our physical co-ordination can be lost, if we damage our frontal lobes, our personality can be changed. This is because the brain controls the body and emotions. The cause and effect is clear: physical damage to the brain damages our 'soul.'

“Conversely, even if things happen to our bodies that we do not choose (such as the progression of Alzheimer's disease, which causes senility and dementia)2, we are forced to change our behavior and feelings as a result of changes to the structure of our brain during medical procedures.

“Psychosurgery, including lobotomies or leucotomies, became used regularly from the 1930s for severely disrupted patients. Since then highly accurate and specific stereotactic tractotomies, stereotactic limbic leucotomies and the like have been developed, allowing the destruction of very small parts of the brain, normally locating pathways between one part and another in order to change specific aspects of behavior and symptoms.

“For example, a cingulotomy is occasionally used against obsessive and compulsive patients by destroying 2-3 cm of particular white matter. An amygdalotomy destroys the brain's neural connection between the amygdala and the hypothalamus and is normally used on patients who suffer from episodes of unstoppable violence and terror.3. What all this shows is that the physical structures and chemistry of the brain can control large portions of our chosen behaviors, experiences and feelings.

“If our medulla is damaged, or our brainstem, why can't the 'soul' control our body? If we have a serotonin imbalance as the result of disease, why does our 'soul' suffer depression and mood disorders? It seems that the 'soul' is completely physical.

“’A small amount of damage . . . might even cause rather dramatic changes in your personality. Why? Because your brain is the seat of your self-awareness, the locus of your intelligence, your compassion, and your creativity. All of your mental activities--your thoughts, emotions and feelings--and all your bodily processes are affected by the functioning of your brain.’ ("Understanding Human Behavior" by James V. McConnel, 1986)

“If we suffer brain damage, take drugs, or if we are injected unknowingly with hormones by an experimenter, our feelings can be altered. This must mean that a 'soul' is a reader of our experiences, but not a cause of them. . ..

“It seems that whatever role our 'soul' has, it is not directly linked to the control of our physical bodies, and it is not directly a cause of our experiences.

“In addition to physical feelings, our emotions are deeply tied to biochemistry and neurology. Neurological causes (especially in the limbic system) precede emotions, and that cognitive events precede conscious awareness of feelings and emotions. This means that our qualia and fundamental experience of life results from our brain chemistry.

--“The Physics of the 'Soul'

“’Ghost, n. The outward and visible sign of an inward fear.’ There is one insuperable obstacle to a belief in ghosts. A ghost never comes back naked: he appears either in a winding-sheet or 'in his habit as he lived.' To believe in him, then, is to believe that not only have the dead the power to make themselves visible after there is nothing left of them, but that the same power inheres in textile fabrics. Supposing the products of the loom to have this ability, what object would they have in exercising it? And why does not the apparition of a suit of clothes sometimes walk abroad without a ghost in it? These be riddles of significance.’ ("The Devil's Dictionary" by Ambrose Bierce, 1967)

“Eyes

“Our physical eyes operate by absorbing certain frequencies of the electromagnetic spectrum. Our retinas contain special wavelength-sensitive chemicals that absorb photons of light precisely due to their physical properties. Some problems emerge when we consider what eyesight disembodied souls or ghosts might have:

“Without eye sockets, eyelids, a skull and a brain to get in the way of light arriving at the eyes, a 'spirit' is free to view a full 360 degrees around itself, unhindered. Yet I have never heard of such a report from ghost-hunters and mediums and the like.

"Without light-absorbing chemicals, immaterial 'spirits' cannot absorb light. It is ridiculous to think that they mystically 'see' the exact same frequency ranges as happens to be absorbed by certain photosensitive chemicals; it therefore stands that there is nothing limiting 'spirits' from 'seeing' all frequency ranges. This means they can see infrared, ultraviolet, radio waves, etc. But why is it that 'spirits'--and those who claim to speak on behalf of them--never report anything physical from the vicinity that can't be seen with normal eyes?

“Any absorption of light is detectable by scientific instruments --light is, after all, composed of lots of photons which are well-understood by science. To see, your eyes must absorb photos of light. In addition, if 'spirits' can see, their interaction with result in detectable quantum and/or normal physical side-effects of observation. But to have these effects, 'spirits' must have physical components. To observe, you must become detectable, but many a scientific study have found no such evidence of 'spiritual' eyesight.

“These are important questions which all highlight contradictions with the very idea of 'spirits' being able to see in the real world, and also highlights the fact that all stories told about 'spirits,' 'ghosts' and 'souls' have merely reflected the state of knowledge of the storyteller.

“If the 'soul' was able to interact physically with the body, or to view the world, it must have some physical structure in order to be an observer.

"Yet, despite attempts, no evidence for the 'mass' of 'soul' has been found. An object cannot be mass-free and physical; it cannot react with energy without having energy. In order to react with the brain, it must have mass, but in order to be invisible it must be mass free. In order to see it requires photoreceptors and energy measuring devices which need to interact with the physical world. All such interactions are detectable. If 'souls' interact with the world at all, they would be scientifically detectable in the world, but, scientific studies published properly in peer-reviewed journals have found no signs of 'souls' or 'spirits.'

--“Evolution and Development of the Self

“There is another major problem with the idea that a 'soul' is required for some parts of the brain to function--the fact that all the individual parts of the brain obey normal biological and chemical rules. Animals and such evolved through a long process of gradual complexification.

"At no point in the history of the evolution of the nervous system has a 'soul' became necessary. The 'soul' itself must have evolved with us, within us. Growing with us from birth. It is as if our 'soul' is our brains, and nothing more. Or in other words, the evolution of our brain shows us that we have merely mistaken some of the emergent properties of consciousness to be a 'soul,' somehow different from the brain itself.

"Now we know enough neurology to say for sure that this isn't true. In short there is only one sensible conclusion: 'Souls' do not exist. This lesson from natural biology came too late for some, and the belief in special 'souls' just for human beings has pervaded human religions up to the present day. . ..

--“Particular Phenomenon . . .

“Ghosts

“Ghost stories have a tendency to become true. The suggestibility of many people means that they actively seek out confirming experiences for even the most improbable stories that they've heard. Colin Wilson's television series in the 1970s, 'Leap in the Dark,' traced the history of a haunting:

“’A writer, Frank Smythe, deliberately put round an entirely fictitious story that a particular place was haunted by a particular ghost. No one, apart from Smythe and his team, knew that the story was fictitious. A while later the researchers were flooded with reports from people claiming to have sighted the ghost in question. In this case, then, we have sightings of a ghost which arose simply on the basis of the public suggestion that there was a ghost to be seen.’ ("The Origins of Psychic Phenomena: Poltergeists, Incubi, Succubi, and the Unconscious Mind," by
Stan Gooch, 2007)

"The Recently Dead

"In many folk tales, Westerners tell of seeing the 'ghosts' of the recently departed. Scientific investigation has always found that such cases are either explainable in terms of the subject actually knowing more than they knew they knew (or let on), or are mistaken.

"Experiments where people write down such predictions before finding out confirming evidence (such as receiving a phone call informing them a relative is dead), results in a very poor record of accuracy, with the only slight success rate attributable to the fact that people tend to predict the deaths of the elderly or unwell.

"The investigative psychologist Stan Gooch, who does believe that the human brain is capable of supernatural intelligence, argues that all such encounters with the dead are actually subjective methods of interpreting information, but which do not actually have a basis in physical reality:

“’In all these cases we do not require the discarnate spirit hypothesis at all. It is totally irrelevant. . .. As emphasized, the person is not always dead when the vision occurs). Is it not enough to say that in all cases of death that having received kind of telepathic impulse if events, the unconscious mind then generates some kind of symbolic fantasy - a vision, a dream, a premonition--by which means it presents the received information to consciousness?

"'That view gains enormously also from the fact that Australian aborigines are very good at sensing the death of a distant companion. But they do not see a "ghostly" vision of that person, as westerners often do. Instead they see a vision of that person's totem animal running about the camp. Once again, 'we see what we expect to see' in terms of our cultural (and in this case, religious) upbringing. The totem animal is the best choice, and the obvious choice, for the Aborigine unconscious mind to make in presenting its information to consciousness.’ ("The Origins of Psychic Phenomena: Poltergeists, Incubi, Succubi, and the Unconscious Mind," by
Stan Gooch, 2007)

“'Out-of-Body Experiences'

“'Out-of-body experiences' were once poorly studied scientifically because of their purely psychological nature, but recent technological developments have allowed neurologists to study these types of states of consciousness. Scientists have been able to recreate situations in which "out of body experiences" occur in wide-awake individuals.

“’Two sets of studies published independently in the same issue of the journal “Science” demonstrate how the illusion of a bodily self outside one's own body can be stimulated in the laboratory. The studies forge ways to better understand both "out-of-body" and "near-death experiences." "The research provides a physical explanation for the phenomenon usually ascribed to other-worldly influences," Peter Bruger, a neurologist at University Hospital in Zurich who was not involved in the experiment, told science journalist Sandra Blakesee in her report on these experiments in “The New York Times” (August 24).' (Kendrick Frazier in “Skeptical Inquirer,” 2007)

“’Olaf Blanke and his colleagues report that they are able to bring about so-called "out-of-body experiences (OBE)," where a person's consciousness seems to become detached from the body, by electrical stimulation of a specific region in the brain. I have discussed "OBE" experiments in two books and have concluded that they provide no evidence for anything happening outside of the physical processes of the brain.’ ("God, the Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist,” by Prof. Victor J. Stenger (2007)

“The two books by Prof. Victor Stenger on this subject, plus relevant page numbers, are: 1. ‘Physics and Psychics: The Search for a World beyond the Senses’ (Amherst, NY: Prometheus Books, 1990) p. 111; [and] 2. ‘Has Science Found God? The Latest Results in the Search for Purpose in the Universe’ (Amherst, NY: Prometheus Books, 2003) pp. 290-99.

“Extensive research into cases of 'OBEs' by skeptical scientists have shown that in all cases, details of the event have not produced anything that could not have been known by the patient. Experiments have included hidden symbols placed high up in rooms so that only through an 'OBE' or other supernatural process could someone know what the symbol was. Simple tests like this have always demonstrated that what is 'seen' during an 'OBE' is only ever what the patient already knew was there. This, combined with our neurological understanding of 'OBEs' is conclusive proof that 'OBEs' are purely psychological, with, as Prof. Stenger says, ‘no evidence for anything happening outside of the physical processes of the brain.’

“Night Terrors: 'Demonic' Attacks . . .

“The following phenomenon has its basis in the biochemistry of the brain, involving the limbic system, cerebellum and duodenum and the way that they are suppressed during sleep. An incorrect balance of neuron-controlling chemicals during sleep makes some people more susceptible to night terrors than others. They occur in the early night and ‘experiences of entrapment, of being choked or attacked, often with shrieking, sitting-up, or sleep-walking, and tremendous acceleration of the heart. [They become] more frequent when there is greater daytime anxiety; they are frequent among wartime battle evacuees and night terrors are commonly experienced by children aged 10-14.’

“The human biologist McConnel describes a likely Night Terror:

“’You begin to senses--deep down inside you--that something has gone very wrong. Slowly, almost dimly, you regain enough consciousness to realize that you are suffocating, that some heavy weight is lying on your chest and crushing your lungs. Suddenly you realize your breathing has almost stopped, and you are dying for air. Terrified, you scream! At once, you seem to awaken. There is this thing hovering over you, crushing the very life out of your lungs. You shout at the thing, but it won't leave you alone.

“’Despite a strange feeling of paralysis, you start to resist. Your pulse begins to race, your breathing becomes rapid, and you push futilely at the thing that is choking you to death. Your legs tremble, then begin to thrash about under the covers. You sweep the bedclothes aside, stumble to your feet, and flee into the darkness. You run clumsily through the house, trying to get from the thing.

“’And then, all at once, you find yourself in your living room. The lights come on, the thing instantly retreats to the shadows of your mind, and you are awake. You are safe now, but you are intensely wrought up and disturbed. You shake your head, wondering what has happened to you. You can remember that you were fleeing from the thing that was crushing you. But you have forgotten your scream and talking in your sleep. The thing dream is a classic example of a night terror.’ ("Understanding Human Behavior," by James V. McConnel, 1986)

“It is clear to see how such physiological events can be interpreted supernaturally by its victims!

“’Before the physiological causes of these experiences was known, night terrors were interpreted as being the attacks of evil spirits. Others have experienced it as an alien abduction, an attempted possession or as the evil magic of medieval witches, along with all manner of other supernatural and paranormal explanations that have arose historically.’ (“Nightmares and Night Terrors,” by Vexen Crabtree, 2005)

--"Religion

“A 'Life Force:' The Creation of a Pre-Scientific Age

“The whole idea of a mystical and 'spiritual life-force' embodied a lack of knowledge of neurology and cognitive psychology; the neurology of the self was simply beyond any possible investigation. Many ancient languages and cultures conflated the act of breathing with life:

“’The association of 'spirit' with air is embedded in a number of ancient languages: the Hebrew rah ("wind" or "breath") and nefesh, also associated with breathing; the Greek psychein ("to breathe"), which is related to the word psyche for "soul"; and the Latin words anima ("air," "breath," or "life") and spiritus, which also refers to breathing. The "soul" was seen as departing the body in the dying last breath. . .. In the Old Testament, the "soul" is life itself, breathing into the body by God.’ (“God, the Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist,” by Prof. Victor J. Stenger, 2007)

“Now we know that us humans evolved, along with all other animals, developing a complex nervous system and brain along the way. This led slowly, over time, to conscious life and emotional awareness. As we noted in the section on evolution, there was no point in the evolution of our minds that an independent 'soul' became a necessary addition.

"Yet many religionists such as Jews, Christians and Muslims have gone to great lengths to argue that only human beings have 'souls' and that animals and plants do not. This is based on the account of creation where God 'breathes life' into Adam and Eve but not into the various animals. This is despite the fact that the scriptures of Judaism, Christianity and Islam do not endorse the idea of 'souls.'

"Confused? The leaders of the main faiths have taken up some pretty contradictory positions on the existence of the 'soul': it has been endorsed, denied, preached for, preached against, declared heretical and declared essential.

“In his classic work, ‘The Illusion of Immortality,’ philosopher Corliss Lamont surveyed all the aspects of the subject of immortality, from theological and philosophical to scientific and social. He points out that the exact nature of the immortality that is preached in Christianity, as well as in other religions, is not at all clear, with many different doctrines being presented over the ages.’ . . .

“'Souls' are a Pagan Concept

"The concept of a 'soul' exists in various pagan religions well before they existed in the monotheistic, traditional ‘world religions.’ Mainstream religions inherited local pagan concepts of 'souls' from the local, uneducated masses. For example, early Christianity inherited the beliefs of the Roman, pagan masses on 'souls.' Bertrand Russell (1935) outlines briefly the source of the Christian idea of the soul:

“’The "soul," as it first appeared in Greek thought, had a religious though not a Christian origin. It seems, so far as Greece was concerned, to have originated in the teachings of the Pythagoreans, who believed in transmigration. [ . . .They] influenced Plato, and Plato influenced the Father of the Church; in this way, the doctrine of the soul as something distinct from the body became part of Christian doctrine. . .. It appears from Plato that doctrines very similar to those subsequently taught by Christianity were widely held in his day by the general public rather than by philosophers.’ ("Religion and Science" by Bertrand Russell, 1935)

“In all ancient religions, the 'soul' was the surviving aspect of the self that afforded reincarnation (or ‘transmigration’); in Hinduism and Buddhism it was the source of life that passed on from one body to be reborn in another, in the samsaric cycle of life; with further incarnations being higher up or lower down in the scale according to a measure of the good (or fruitful) and bad (or deluded) actions performed during life. This concept easily translates into the Christian concept of 'sin' and the idea of the 'soul' thus passed from the pagan-influenced advanced Jews of the first century, and the Roman pagans themselves, into Christianity.

“The Religion of Spiritualism

"Institutionalized Spiritual Populism

“Religion In Britain: The 2001 census revealed there are over 32 thousand Spiritualists in the UK

“Despite all the logical and physical problems with supposing that 'spirits' can interact with the world, as examined above, Spiritualism, a modern religion that is based on such interaction, arose in the 19th century. It involves 'mediums' receiving messages from the dead, during psychodramas called séances.

“'Spiritualism includes a variety of differing networks and groups, some of which hold some specifically Christian beliefs and others of which are almost totally devoid of any religious dogma at all. They all, however, share on central concept - communication with the "spirit realm" through gifted or psychic individuals. Spiritualists always speak of the 'departed' rather than the 'dead. / ("Encyclopedia of New Religions," by Christopher Partridge, 2004)

“The modern movement began in Hydesville, New York, . . . in 1848, where the Fox family lived. John Fox's two daughters, Maggie and Katherine, along with a few early converts and colleagues who accompanied them on tours around the country, all proceeded to demonstrate that they communicate with the dead. It presumed a general Christian outlook on life and retained a Christian morality. It has become more than a sect of Christianity, and should be considered a religion in its own right due to the development of its authoritative written works that are no longer Christian. It remains a very loose and secular spread of practitioners, but nonetheless Spiritualist Churches hold services several times a week, some of them including Christian Holy Communion.

“It has become the public face of the New Age: 'channellers' and 'mediums' have appeared on a long string of television dramas and in books, so much so, that portions of the population think that there must be underlying truth (if not evidence) to it.

“Issues and Problems: Its Original Proponents Admit Making It Up

“The religion [of spiritualism] has been mired in problems. Not only the apparent fact that souls, spirits and ghosts don't exist, but that mediums' communications are fraudulent. The information gleaned from the dead is the same tone and quality as that obtained through cold-reading, which is the method used by psychics such as tarot-card readers. It is a mixture between obscurantism, astute observations and a Machiavellian understanding of what types of things people want to hear and will believe.

"There have been several court cases resulting in criminal convictions for fraud against Spiritualists, which is probably the reason that some of their websites state that they are 'for entertainment purposes only.' Not only are there problems with the soul-based theories of the religion and the general substance of séances, but the two Fox daughters who founded the movement admitted later during their lifetimes that it had been a hoax:

“’Four decades after spiritualism began, sisters Margaret Fox Kane and Katherine Fox Jencken confessed it had all been a trick. On Sunday, October 21, 1988, the sisters appeared at the Academy of Music in New York City. . . . She explained how she had produced the rapping noises [ . . . and] demonstrated the effect for the audience. . .. Margaret then went on to state:
"I think that it is about time that the truth of this miserable subject 'Spiritualism' should be brought out. It is now widespread all over the world, . . . I was the first in the field and I have the right to expose it. . .. Mother . . . could not understand it and did not suspect us of being capable of a trick because we were so young.’

“’ . . . Margaret also stated that Leah knew the spirit rappings were fake, and that when she traveled with the girls (on their first nationwide tour) it was she who signaled the answers to various questions. (She probably chatted with sitters before the séance to obtain information; when that did not produce the requisite facts, the "spirits" no doubt spoke in vague generalizations that are the mainstay of spiritualistic charlatans). Margaret repeated her exposé in other cities close to New York.

“’Today, spiritualists characterize Margaret's exposé as bogus, attributing it to her need for money or the desire for revenge against her rivals or both. However, not only were her admissions fully corroborated by her sister, but she demonstrated to the audience that she could produce the mysterious raps just as she said.’ (Joe Nickell in “Skeptical Inquirer, “ 2008)

“Extensive investigations at the original site in Hydesville where the Fox daughters invented the first Spiritualist communications, have also shown every aspect of the story to be invented falsehoods; with details about bodies, persons and fake walls all to be incorrect and with evidence of attempted trickery.

“The [Spiritualist] religion's take on 'spirits' and 'the spirit world' remain a mixture of pop culture assertions and assumptions, with very little rationality or coherency. There seems to be no reason why, if 'spirits' can communicate by banging things, moving tables, talking through people's mouths, that they can't instead simply write clear letters with pens on paper. Also, the abysmal failure rate of psychic 'help' in real police cases, the cold-reading associations, the fraud cases and the negative results of scientific investigations into Spiritualist claims all point to fundamental flaws in the religion/movement.”

*****


As to the non-substantive silliness of the “materialistic soul," Massimo Pigliucci squarely addresses it in his article, “Does the 'Soul' Weigh 21 Grams?”

He writes:

"This myth, reinforced by a 2003 fictional movie by the otherwise rather cryptic title 121 grams' is occasionally thrown to non-supernaturalists as one more ‘proof’ that we are fools, by our own standards of reason and evidence.

"It turns out that the only source for the 21-gram figure is a discredited study carried out in 1907 by a Haverhill, Massachusetts, doctor by the name of Duncan MacDougall. He managed (apparently overcoming any ethical qualms over human experimentation) to put six dying people on a bed equipped with sensitive springs, and claimed to have observed a sudden loss of weight--about 3/4 of an ounce--at the exact moment of their death. Having reasoned that such loss could not be explained by bowel movements or evaporation, he concluded he must have measured the weight of the soul.

"A follow-up experiment also showed that dogs (which were healthy, so they were probably poisoned on purpose by the good doctor) don't seem to suffer the same sort of loss, therefore they don't have souls (sorry, you canine lovers).

"This is an excellent example of where pseudoscience and belief go wrong, on a variety of levels. Let us start with MacDougall's claim itself: it turns out that his data were decidedly unreliable by any decent scientific standard. Not only was the experiment never repeated (by either MaDougall or anyone else), but his own notes (published in 'American Medicine' in March 1907) show that of the six data points, two had to be discarded as 'of no value'; two recorded a weight drop, followed by additional losses later on (was the soul leaving bit by bit?); one showed a reversal of the loss, then another loss (the soul couldn't make up its mind, leaving, re-entering, then leaving for good); and only one case actually constitutes the basis of the legendary estimate of ¾ of an ounce. With data like these, it's a miracle the paper got published in the first place.

"Second, as was pointed out immediately by Dr. Augustus P. Clarke in a rebuttal also published in 'American Medicine,' MacDougall failed to consider another obvious hypothesis: that the weight loss (assuming it was real) was due to evaporation caused by the sudden rise in body temperature that occurs when the blood circulation stops and the blood can no longer be air-cooled by the lungs. This also elegantly explains why the dogs showed no weight loss: as is well known, they cool themselves by panting, not sweating like humans do.

"Third, MacDougall's allegedly inescapable conclusion ('How other shall we explain it?') did not derive from any theory of the 'soul,' but was simply arrived at by excluding a small number of other possibilities. In other words, the 'soul explanation' won by default, without having to go through the onerous process of positive confirmation. This is yet another version of the 'god-of-the-gaps' argument so in vogue among the faithful, and that constitutes the backbone--such as it is--of Intelligent Design 'theory.'

"But perhaps most damning of all is the very idea that the 'soul' has weight. Whatever it is, the 'soul' since Plato's time has been understood as immaterial, i.e. without mass and, therefore, weightless. Obviously, this in turn raises all the classic problems of dualism: how can something immaterial interact with a material world? How can 'ghosts' walk through walls and yet 'see' things or make noises? How can the mind direct our actions--that famous conundrum that stymied Descartes--if it is an incorporeal 'substance' (itself an oxymoron)?

"Even more basically: why are the so-called 'faithful' perennially in search of scientific confirmation of their inanities? Shouldn't faith be enough? Indeed, isn't the very idea of faith as a value that one should hold fast to it, not only despite the lack of evidence, but even in the face of contrary evidence?

"C'mon guys, I'm beginning to think that somewhere in your subconscious you have this terrifying suspicion that you really believe in nonsense, and are therefore desperate to get science to provide some evidence, however flimsy, that you are right after all. Why not shed the superstition altogether and see what happens? It's a nice, comprehensible world out here."

("Does the Soul Weigh 21 Grams?," by Massimo Pigliucci, "Rationally Speaking," 20 March 2007, at: http://rationallyspeaking.blogspot.com/2007/03/does-soul-weigh-21-grams.html

*****


--Finally, in her article, “Why I Don’t Believe in the 'Soul,'” Greta Christina lays out the rational reasons for answering “no” to the question, “Got Soul?”:

“Today . . . I want to talk, not about why I don’t believe in God or gods, not about why some particular religion’s belief in God is mistaken or contradictory … but about why I don’t believe in the 'soul.'

“A lot of people who don’t believe in God per se still believe in some sort of 'soul,' some sort of metaphysical substance or animating 'spirit' that inhabits people and other living things. And I think this is mistaken. I think it’s every bit as mistaken an idea as God is.

“And today, I want to talk about why. I want to talk about why everything that we think of as the 'soul'--consciousness, identity, character, free will--is much more likely to be a product of our brains and our bodies and the physical world, than a metaphysical substance inhabiting our bodies but somehow separate and distinct from it.

“Much, much, much more likely.

“Here’s the thing. I know that there are enormous unanswered questions about how the mind works, and indeed what it is. The questions of what consciousness is, how it’s created, how it works… these are questions that we don’t really have answers to yet. Ditto identity and selfhood. And we’re not sure that free will even exists, much less how it works. The science of neuropsychology, and the scientific understanding of consciousness, are very much in their infancy. In fact, I would argue that ‘What is consciousness?’ is one of the great scientific questions of our time.

"But infant science or not, there are a few things we know about consciousness, identity, character, the ability to make decisions, etc.

”And one of the things we know is that physical changes to the brain can and do result in changes to the consciousness, the identity, the character, the ability to make decisions. Changes caused by injury, illness, drugs and medicines, sleep deprivation, food deprivation, oxygen deprivation, etc., can and do result in changes to everything we think of as the 'soul.' Even some very small changes to the brain--small doses of medicine or drugs, injuries or interventions to just a small area of the brain--can result in some very drastic changes, indeed.

“In some cases, they can do so to the point of rendering a person’s personality completely unrecognizable. Physical changes to the brain can make people unable to care about their own families. They can make people unable to make decisions. They can make smart people stupid, anxious people calm, happy people irritable, crazy people less crazy. They can render everything we know about a person, everything that makes that person who they are, totally null and void. Read Oliver Sacks, read V. S. Ramachandran, read any modern neurologist or neuropsychologist, and you’ll see what I’m talking about. It’s f***ing freaky, actually, just how fragile are mind and self, consciousness and character.

”And, of course, we have the rather drastic change to consciousness and character and coherent identity and the ability to make decisions, known as ‘death.’

“Simply cut off oxygen or blood flow to the brain for a relatively short time, and a person’s consciousness and self and ability to take action in the world will not just change but vanish--completely, and permanently. (Attempts to find solid evidence supporting life after death have been utterly unsuccessful: reports of it abound, but when carefully examined using good scientific methodology, they fall apart like a house of cards).

“Now.

“Think about any other phenomenon in the world. When Physical Action A results in Effect B, we think of that as a physical phenomenon. Apply heat to water, and get steam; apply force to an object, and get motion; apply electricity to metals in certain ways, and get magnetism; apply vinegar to baking soda, and get gobs of rapidly expanding foam. These are physical events, every one. Only the most hard-line religious believers insist that God’s hand is in every physical action that takes place everywhere in the universe. Most rational, reasonably- well- educated people understand that the physical world is governed by laws of physical cause and effect.

“So.

“We have a phenomenon, or a set of phenomena: consciousness, selfhood and identity, character and personality, the ability to make decisions. There’s a lot we don’t know about these phenomena yet, but one of the few things we do know is that physical changes to a person’s brain will result in changes to the phenomena. Small changes or drastic ones, depending on the stimulus.

“Doesn’t that look like a biological process?

“Doesn’t that look like phenomena that are governed by physical cause and effect?

“Even though we don’t fully understand them, don’t these phenomena have all the hallmarks of a physical event, or function, or relationship?

“I mean, even when we didn’t know what gravity was (which, if I understand the science correctly, we still don’t fully grasp), once we got the idea of it we understood that it was a physical phenomenon. Once we got the idea and began studying and observing it, we didn’t try to explain it by invisible spirit- demons living inside objects and pulling towards each other. We could see that it was physical objects having an effect on other physical objects, and we understood that it was a physical force.

"In other words, we don’t need to completely understand a phenomenon to recognize it as a physical event, governed by laws of physical cause and effect.

“And when you start looking at the ‘soul,’ you realize that that’s exactly what it looks like, too.

“Everything that we call the ‘soul’ is affected by physical events in our bodies, and those events alter it, shape it, and eventually destroy it. Apply opiates to the brain, and get euphoria; apply a stroke to the brain, and get impairment in the ability to understand language; apply vigorous physical exercise to the brain, and get stress reduction; apply repeated blows to the brain, and get loss of memory and intelligence. Apply anesthesia to the brain, and create the temporary obliteration of consciousness. Remove blood or oxygen to the brain, and create its permanent obliteration. It looks exactly like a physical, biological process: a poorly understood one as of yet, but a biological process nonetheless.

“And there’s no reason to believe otherwise. The theory that the 'soul' is some sort of metaphysical entity or substance has no solid evidence to back it up. Just as with life after death, attempts to find evidence for a 'spirit'
or 'soul' have consistently withered and died when exposed to the searing light and heat of the scientific method. And there’s never been any good explanation of how, exactly, the metaphysical 'soul' is supposed to influence and interact with the brain and the body.

“Not to mention why it can be so drastically altered when the body alters.

"Is there energy inhabiting our brain and our body? Yes, of course. There are electrical impulses running through our brains and up and down our nerves; there are chemical signals being transmitted through our muscles and guts; we consume food energy and radiate heat.

“But is there some sort of non-physical energy inhabiting our brain and our body? Is there some sort of non-physical energy generating our consciousness, our personality, our coherent identity, our ability to make decisions?

“There’s no reason to think so.

“We have an enormous amount yet to learn about self and will, consciousness and character. But everything we know about them points to them being physical phenomena. And the more we learn about them, the more true that becomes.”

(“Why I Don’t Believe in the Soul,” by Greta Christina,, on “Freethought Blogs,” 8 July 2008, at: http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2008/07/21/why-i-dont-believe-in-the-soul/)

Soul there. Wrap it up and stick a fork in it.

Wait. You can't stick forks into souls--even though they're made out of material. Chew on that for awhile.

No, wait. You can't chew on souls. Ok, then, it's not necessary for your salvation.

No, wait one more time. There is no salvation.

******


CONCLUSION:

The coffin lid on Woo-Wooism's Magical Wish List has been closed, but believers in the superstitions of supernaturalism refuse to take it lying down.

For them, zombies rule: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5MPxxUcGho
_____


(another link, but for those who think: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1920421,1920421#msg-1920421)



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2016 04:48AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Cpete ( )
Date: December 29, 2016 02:00AM


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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 29, 2016 02:13AM


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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 29, 2016 04:46AM


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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: December 29, 2016 12:02PM

Groan.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: December 29, 2016 09:34AM

What Steve's post (and all the science we have on consciousness) points out is that *all* brain structures are involved in consciousness.

Terrific info, Steve. Thanks.

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Posted by: eternal1 ( )
Date: December 29, 2016 11:18AM

I thought this PBS series, with David Eagleman, on the brain was interesting.


http://www.pbs.org/show/brain-david-eagleman/episodes/

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: December 29, 2016 11:48AM

The failure to understand something is humanity's simplest self-fulfilling prophecy. You can always decide to fail, as long as you exercise some care in choosing what you decide to fail at.

We don't know everything about consciousness. We don't know everything about gravity either, but we do know quite a lot about both of them. The existence of unanswered questions is not proof that everything in our present understanding is wrong.

[just read all of Steve's post, excellent material BTW. I see the author also chose gravity as a comparative example. We can make incredibly precise measures of gravitational force, and use gravity with great precision, like GPS. But we do still have unanswered questions about how and why it works]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2016 12:07PM by Brother Of Jerry.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 29, 2016 02:32PM

they impulsively rush to fill current holes in the knowledge base with their superstitious religious make-believe, unwilling and/or unable to understand the scientific method of solving problems through observation, experimentation, replication, and falsification.

Woo-wooism's ignorant response is called the "god-of-the-gaps" approach, and is a reflection of the long human impulse to deal with unexplained phenomena by invoking The Big Sky Daddy.

Time and time again, history has proven that The Big Sky Daddy is a worthless paper tiger that can't hold a candle to the relentless and much more reliable scientific method.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2016 05:56AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: December 30, 2016 01:03PM

"We don't know everything about consciousness. We don't know everything about gravity either, but we do know quite a lot about both of them. The existence of unanswered questions is not proof that everything in our present understanding is wrong."

COMMENT: Yes, but the analogy to gravity breaks down in a significant way. What is important to consider is whether our present understanding (of either gravity or consciousness) is consistent with all observable facts in nature; i.e. the data. Such understanding is undermined by any anomalies in the data that show the understanding, or theory, to be fundamentally incorrect.

Considering gravity first, under Newtonian physics several anomalies undermined the Newtonian theory of gravity--even for Newton himself. Perhaps foremost, it implied action at a distance, which was inconsistent with Newton's theory of motion. This was resolved by Einstein's theory of general relativity, which encompassed a wholesale rejection of the foundations of Newtonian physics (absolute space and time), notwithstanding its remarkable mathematical consistency and explanatory power, anomalies notwithstanding.

Consciousness is quite different because it not only requires a new understanding, but a new ontology. If our scientific "understanding" is that in principal the brain, and classical physical processes generally, provide the necessary and sufficient conditions to explain all phenomenal, subjective experience (all aspects of mental activity and cognition in all its variety and complexity), then several anomalies immediately surface.

First, at least intuitively, consciousness, as revealed by human experience, encompasses an individual self, thought, understanding, desires, and freewill, none of which can be explained by physical brain processes, which are rote, deterministic, "mindless" causal processes.

Second, consciousness encompasses mental causation. Physical processes may indeed cause consciousness, but they cannot account for how the dynamics of the mind itself work, and particularly how the mind causally affects matter; how thoughts can causally change brain states and thereby the physical world.

Now, all of what we experience as "the mental" may indeed be part of a complete dynamic system encompassing both mind and matter. If so, what are we to make of the anomalies of mind? ; First, it must be acknowledged that consciousness most certainly involves much more than can be explained by neurological function alone. Something significant is missing. The acknowledgment of a missing ingredient in understanding, as revealed by certain discovered anomalies, is common in science. Thus, Einstein realized that given the anomaly imposed on Newtonian physics by the constancy of the speed of light, something new was required; a new approach and paradigm shift in our otherwise ordinary scientific thinking. In quantum mechanics, the anomalies involved in correlating general relativity with the Standard Model of quantum physics resulted in quantum field theory, with numerous new "hidden" fields (such as the Higgs), which were required to overcome such anomalies.

The anomalies of consciousness suggest the same sort of paradigm shift. The suggestion that such a shift requires mind-body dualism, or the existence of a soul, is admittedly a bit of a reach. But it is utter foolishness to conclude that the anomalies of consciousness do not exist, and can thus be swept under the rug, with a wild, hand-waving, fervor of rhetorical fantasy, however many quotes are included. Or that such ideas are per se objectionable simple because they offend our anti-religion sensibilities.

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Posted by: Dogblogger ( )
Date: December 30, 2016 01:38PM

We have certain freedom and choice, but freewill itself is looking less and less likely

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: December 30, 2016 01:47PM

Henry,
Interesting how first you claim the analogy to gravity breaks down, then you use the same analogy (not quite correctly) to make your point. I found that odd.

Second, the so-called "anomalies" you mentioned aren't actually anomalies, they're things we don't yet understand. You state that physical or neurological processes can't explain them -- which may or may not be the case. But at any rate, that physical or neurological processes *can't yet* explain them does not mean that they are, of necessity, unexplainable by physical or neurological processes and therefore must be "something else."

Some of them are currently unexplainable. That means "we don't know." It doesn't mean "they must be something else." :)

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 30, 2016 01:59PM


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Posted by: thinking ( )
Date: December 31, 2016 04:07AM

"Interesting how first you claim the analogy to gravity breaks down, then you use the same analogy (not quite correctly) to make your point. I found that odd."

Comment: this analogy was quite accurate for the point Henry was trying to make, which must of have been lost on you. Point being more study, hypothesizing, and testing resulted in a more accurate picture of reality. Otherwise, we'd be stuck with Newtonian physics.

Second, the so-called "anomalies" you mentioned aren't actually anomalies, they're things we don't yet understand. You state that physical or neurological processes can't explain them -- which may or may not be the case. But at any rate, that physical or neurological processes *can't yet* explain them does not mean that they are, of necessity, unexplainable by physical or neurological processes and therefore must be "something else."

Comment: He gave you an example of an anomaly. "Physical processes may indeed cause consciousness, but they cannot account for how the dynamics of the mind itself work, and particularly how the mind causally affects matter; how thoughts can causally change brain states and thereby the physical world." An example of this is the double slit experiment. That was an anomaly. Definition of anomaly, "something that deviates from what is standard, normal, or expected." That means it is currently unexplainable, otherwise it would be standard, normal, or expected.

"Some of them are currently unexplainable. That means "we don't know." It doesn't mean "they must be something else." :)"

Comment: Actually, yes it does. If we do not know something there is an explanation or "there must be something else." What that something else is currently is not determined. Principle of Causality says that the cause must precede its effect. Shit just doesn't magically happen without a cause. If it did, flush science down the toilet. If we didn't understand cause and effect we would be living like animals with a limited ability to perceive this fundamental principle of reality.

One thing I would like to commend you on is giving us a sample of catch-22 logical fallacy. Your last statement showed simultaneously accepting of two mutually contradictory beliefs as correct. Are you completely unaware of any conflict or contradiction in your response to Henry?

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Posted by: hmmm. ( )
Date: December 29, 2016 10:59PM

The big question is what is consciousness? Is your dog conscious? Your gold fish? An amebae? What qualifies? They all react to cause and effect in the environment. For that matter all matter reacts in its environment. Is consciousness somehow qualitatively defined as the amount of internal calculations its making in the environment relative to the best cause and effect circumstances?

How is it defined is tricky. Amount of nerve endings? Sure human brains are projecting in terms of probability in terms of cause and effect. What about everything else? Are we the only element of consciousness?

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 30, 2016 05:55AM

But humans are.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: December 31, 2016 02:36AM

It's not the size of your consciousness that matters, but how you use it.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 05:37AM


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Posted by: perky ( )
Date: December 30, 2016 06:15PM

Thanks for the information and references to consider. A complex system not easily understood, but looks like science is getting closer.

Australian biologist Jeremy Griffith also suggests that when humans evolved a nerve based memory it lead to consciousness and the ability to compare experiences. Griffith also suggests the human condition (people are capable of great good and bad) is a result of conflict between older human genetic programming and evolution of a nerve based learning system/human consciousness that occurred around 2 million years ago.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 31, 2016 01:13AM


Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2016 01:38AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 31, 2016 01:32AM

This is how that happens:

-Develop a hypothesis to explain a given phenomenon.

-Construct a theory, based on available evidence, to test the hypothesis.

-Hone, modify, or abandon the theory as new evidence comes to light through the scientific methodologies of observation, replication, experimentation, and falsification.
-----


Empirical science has a long and reliable history of providing increasing knowledge of the world around us and in us.

Superstitious woo-wooism, on the other hand, has a predictable and inglorious tradition of doing nothing but perpetuating ignorance, primitive thinking and illusion.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2016 02:02AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: December 31, 2016 04:39AM

I got to hand it to you Steve, you've convinced me. There are probably just a handful of men in their 60's who can pull of correct usage of "Wobbly WooWoo," and you're clearly one of them. Is it true this term is being adopted by academics around the world as shorthand for ignorant theories? Congrats!

And while most academics shy away from citing Satanists' writings as substantive, your use of use of Vexen Crabtree is spot on.

I especially enjoyed the 6 or 7 paragraphs of his explaining that ghosts can't see because they don't have working eyes. Well, duh! Sometimes it takes a more enlightened person to point out to us the obvious truths around us. Is it true that his treatise on blind ghosts is being expanded for publication in Scientific American? Maybe this will get Vexen the respect he deserves.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/vexen.html

I know that James V. McConnel had a cloud over his work for quite a while after his peers found that his thesis about memory transfer by grinding up worms and feeding them to other worms was embarrassingly untrue, not to mention extremely unpopular with the worms. Bravo to you for being brave enough to shove him back into relevance for your case. Most would not.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2010/06/memory-transfer.aspx

There's so much more here to chew on, but it's clear you've done your homework. You won't catch me holding on to any of this "Wobbly WooWoo!"

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 05:30AM


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Posted by: ALifeExamined ( )
Date: December 31, 2016 05:07AM

It's threads like this that remind me why I no longer frequent this board.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 05:35AM

Now is the great day of its power.

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Posted by: Ohdeargoodness nli ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 03:54PM

I am gradually no longer frequenting as well. I don't understand why some people find the need to stir the pot and shove their version of reality down others' throats.

My current working hypothesis is that "some people" are lonely, self-righteous narcissists. I guess you can take the man out of Mormonism, but you can't always take Mormonism out of the man.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 06:42PM

Indeed, for "some people," it's much easier to irrationally reject the hard, terra firma-rooted sciences of neurology, biology and chemistry and, instead, high-tail it for the hills in search of the soothing sweet nothingness of a feel-good head-long sugar rush into the vacuous vat of saccharine superstition.

No one is making anyone--including you--read up on the real-world realities of empirical science or follow its tried and tested methodologies of sifting fact from fiction.

And, obviously, no one is making you think outside the fantasylsnd of boxed-in religious belief.

To borrow from Roy Rogers' and Dale Evans' little cowpoke ditty, "Happy trails to you until you eat again."

:)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2017 07:09PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Ohdeargoodness nli ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 07:44PM

Good-bye, Steve. I wish for you a full recovery and a happy, healthy 2017.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 08:20PM

fraudspeed



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2017 08:21PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Huh? ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 08:59PM

Just because someone doesn't care for you doesn't make them a fraud.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 10:04PM

Your board handle of convenience indicates your state of confusion on this score, and your timidity to take me on in a direct snd open way is both unscientific and cowardly.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2017 11:03PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: AFT ( )
Date: December 31, 2016 09:04AM

I few years ago, I went to a seminar regarding "Brain, Mind and Consciousness." Speakers were Christian Coch (who worked with Francis Crick on DNA), Dr. Susan Blackmore (who brought the ubiquitous "meme" to the masses) and the requisite appearances by Michael Shermer, James Randi and a few others.

The one conclusion they ALL came to was "We have no idea what causes consciousness, nor what it even IS!"

So now I'm confused. A normal state for me, but still...

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 05:28AM

Religion, by its very nature, does not.

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Posted by: Terminal lucidity ( )
Date: December 31, 2016 11:06AM

Terminal lucidity

Study it

Dare you

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 05:57AM

"Terminal lucidity research is a very young field, and it would be premature to draw strong conclusions from the little data currently available.

"We still do not know what is happening and how it is possible that some of these patients who have been lost for years return to cognitive lucidity in the presence of severe brain pathology. Batthyany’s research also shows that terminal lucidity episodes tend to be relatively brief (between 30 minutes and 2 hours) and are therefore easy to miss.

"The only strong conclusion so far seems to be that we should never cease giving attention to dying patients—whether demented or not—as end-of-living experiences such as terminal lucidity have deep impact and give warm consolation to family, friends, and caregivers, whatever the wider implications may be."

("Epoch Times," 2 September 2014)

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 07:30AM

"Terminal Lucidity: Myth, Mystery or Miracle?"
hy Neuroskeptic
"Discover" magazine
9 August 2014

". . . [C]ould a ‘rational’ explanation exist [for 'terminal lucidity']? We can only speculate, but there are cases of individuals, often autistic, who go years without speaking, but later demonstrate the ability. These are murky waters most of the evidence is anecdotal [and] sometimes involves ‘facilitated communication’ . . .

"From a medical perspective, I am confronted with a mystery… due to the anatomical changes in the cortical brain tissue, it is not comprehensible how [in the early 20th-century celebrated case of Anna Katharina Ehmer [an institutionalized, mentally handicapped terminally ill woman] could suddenly sing so clearly and intelligibly [as she did].

"However, [Ehmer's treating physician] did not seem to have spelled out what [her brain] damage was, or how he knew about it. No autopsy is mentioned, and although x-rays were available in 1922, [he] never seems to have referred to any, although they would have strengthened his argument considerably.

"In summary, I found the Ehmer case fascinating as a piece of neuro-Gothic. [Researchers] Nahm and Greyson have written before about terminal lucidity in the context of other diseases, and they say that the Ehmer story represents ‘one of the most intriguing cases’ of the phenomenon. I do not believe in miracles and this story didn’t change my mind on that score. However, unless we reject the whole story as a fiction, it is surely one of those ‘anomalies’ that neuroscience ought to be able to account for."
-----

(ResearchBlogging.org, Nahm M., & Greyson B. (2013). "The Death of Anna Katharina Ehmer: A Case Study in Terminal Lucidity," "Omega," 68 (1), 77-87 PMID: 24547666)

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 10:53AM

Here's a healthy dose of fact-based critical thinking for you involving a well-known, classic case of "terminal lucidity." It featured a mentally handicapped, institutionalized and dying woman who fell under the unfortunate medical and psychiatric "care" of a couple of prominent, well-respected, soul-believing, Nazi-supporting Christians.

Gawd help us. Religion clearly jumped the tracks on this one.

Time for you to clear your head snd climb onboard the Brain Trsin.

Go ahead. I dare you.

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=24021



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2017 06:59PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: January 02, 2017 02:25AM

Again Steve, thank you for your meticulously researched, unquestionably sound information. To help others understand the value of this information, we should display the truly amazing qualifications of some of your resources:

A random sampling:

As we noted above, few know Vexen Crabtree beyond his seminal work, "The Description, Philosophies and Justification of Satanism." Thank you for showing his prowess in dealing with this current subject matter. He is an unquestionable authority on the nature of consciousness. http://www.dpjs.co.uk/satanism.html

Stan Gooch is another stellar resource. It's truly sad that the academic community has largely ignored him due to his history as a spiritual medium. I believe you have a special gift for recognizing a true academic genius where others cannot. Only small minded academics sought to dismiss Gooch simply due to his insistence that "during one of his séances those present became aware of an ape-like creature, resembling a caveman, crouched, trembling, in the corner of the room. Gooch came to suspect that he had seen a "Neanderthal". He began to reason that the two sides of the human psyche – the ego and the self – were inherited from different branches of the human evolutionary tree."

His pioneering work claiming that our political tendencies are found on the genetic level have also been unfairly dismissed by academia. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/culture-obituaries/books-obituaries/8110857/Stan-Gooch.html

Though Greta Christina has never been cited by any academic anywhere as a resource for critical examination of the existence of the soul, she is unquestionably qualified to address this topic. As a gay atheist blogger, author, and porn actress, she is perhaps best known for her 2012 tome, "99 Things that Piss Off the Godless." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greta_Christina

Again Steve, I want to commend you for your tireless search for resources that are unquestionably sound. Your ability to locate sources that have no agenda other than promoting the truth is admirable. Though few apart from you have found these sources to be reliable, they will surely be highly regarded by the academics who may eventually find them.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: January 02, 2017 03:41AM

which apparently is too high of a bar for stubborn and persistently ignorant woo-woo types to personally accept the
If evidence Service to threaten their precious mythologies.

It's an approach that has served me in deciding my course in life, including determining--after focused research, independant analysis and historical digging, to confidently abandon Mormonism as the flagrant fraud and fiction that it is

I hold other similar superstitious, dishonest, deceptive, manipulative and nonsensical belief systems to the same standard.

If desperate believers in demonstrably falsfiable fairytales don't want them or their sacred cows to be challenged, then I politely suggest that they stay the hell out of my threads and posts.

If, on the other hand, they are willing to enter the rumble and reconsider their views based on evidence that challenges and even shreds their personal security blankets, then fair warning: be prepared for a potentially rough awakening that could turn out to be a rather rough and even rude one for them.

The truth can be brutal. ReBirthing oneself out of the grip of error And imprisonment can be painful. But the struggle to ge
Get to thesurface for air and bresthe in refreshing and re-orienting gulps of clarity can, shall we say, result in profoundly important and memorable lifetime experiences.

I'm open to the same process and, in fact, have been through it several times myself. So, hit me with your best shot. You might land one that, if you can back it up with persuasive evidence, just might get me to change my mind. It's happened before and I'm sure will happen again.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2017 04:28AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: January 02, 2017 04:53AM

I used to read through FAIR's voluminous responses on topics and quickly realized their methodology was paper thin:

1. Start with your strongly held position
2. Search the world over to find sources that can be used to support your position.
3. If a source can be twisted a bit or taken out of context, that's okay as long as it supports your position.
4. Using obscure, contradictory, or unreliable sources is okay. Most people will never check, and those who do aren't your target audience anyway.
5. Couch your position as based upon a staggering amount of research, even though your research was always intended to support your position, not determine it.
6. Belittle those who oppose your position and arrogantly insist that only the ignorant would even question your position.

Years later, I arrive on the ExMo board and run across some of your polemics.

FAIR 2.0

I quickly learned there was no real reason to engage those sold out to FAIR. They had no actual interest in the truth. They are ideologues with a specific agenda, not truth seekers.

And you are just like them.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: January 02, 2017 07:45AM

false pretense and fake identities, subsequently sneaking on to RfM under those same deceptive tactic to carry out their continuing espionage, then report back, tails between their legs, to complain to their cohots on what a bad guy I am for blowing their cover (with help from RFM Admin and fellow posters.

Where were you in that RfM counterintelligence op, short man? Nowhere--because you're just like them: The enemy of your enemy is your friend. (And, by the way, what's your real name? At least John Lynch when he was in the process of being smoked out admitted who he he really was).

I've really gotten your thin skin, haven't I? So much so that you now accuse me of filing lawsuits at Christmas time against Santa and Jesus. You shouldn't take it so personally– –even though they're both non-existent and, yet, you still find it necessary to defend them. Moroni could've used you as a bodyguard. :-)



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2017 08:07AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: commongentile ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 02:33PM

Michael Nahm on Terminal Lucidity:

http://www.michaelnahm.com/terminal-lucidity

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 07:06PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2017 07:11PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: December 31, 2016 06:34PM

"He (Dalai Lama) told me there'd be no tip, but on my deathbed I'd receive total consciousness. So I got that going for me."

--Carl (Bill Murray), Caddyshack.

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Posted by: azsteve ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 06:52AM

Without more information, any hypothesis about the causes of conciousness is meaningless. The OPs original post used the word "circuits". How can we even use words like that in speculation of something that we know little to nothing about? My computer has circuits in it. But it is no more concious than my lawnmower is, and is likely to be infinately distant from approaching a concious state, no matter how intelligent it may become.

As I drive down the road, my car feels like an extension of me. Perhaps the physical body is simply an avatar which is in use by a distant conciousness. Regardless of speculation, without more information, we lack enough information to start forming conclusions about the source of conciousness. Despite what most people think, computer technology doesn't even start addressing conciousness issues. You can program a computer to protect itself and to mimic emotional responses. But it will never feel fear or love. If you defeat any programmed-in self defense routines and destroy it, the computer will not feel a desire to preserve itself, immediately preceding its own destruction.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2017 07:02AM by azsteve.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 11:29AM

and theory.

For starters on this topic, I suggest you click on the think link provided above involving the case of Anna Katharina Ehmer and terminal lucidity.

Oh, and then read this (It's in this very thread, although you appear to have missed it):

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1920843,1920863#msg-1920863

Finally, as to your own case, the old adage applies:

"Jesus, save us from your followers."



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2017 12:20PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: thinking ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 03:43PM

Materialist such as Steve who relegate consciousness as merely a brain function deny weighing in what we know of the nature of reality on a quantum level. It gets woo when neuroscience and the fundamentals of physics collide. If you don't consider one with the other the materialist paradigm stands. When both are considered together certainty of the materialist is no longer certain. That is why Neils Bohr said. “Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real.”
That includes our brains. You are drawing certainty in a position where a paradox exists. Accepting there is a paradox makes people feel woo. Paradoxes do that.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 07:02PM

And you, too, need to bone up on your brain science.

It appears that, while looking for angels, you groundlessly glided over the following post already up in this thread, shining like a navigational beacon for your enlightenment. Please pay better attention in the future:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1920843,1920863#msg-1920863



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2017 08:15PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: thinking ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 09:30PM

Steve:

And you, too, need to bone up on your brain science.

"It appears that, while looking for angels, you groundlessly glided over the following post already up in this thread, shining like a navigational beacon for your enlightenment. Please pay better attention in the future:

Comment: your post completely disregarded the argument. My question which still makes this whole area of science a legitimate argument is reality as it relates to brain on the quantum level. To which you answered brain shocks. Well no shit electrical properties play a role in brain function it also plays a role in all matter and reality as we know it. One electron separates the elements. Your avoiding this huge gap of understanding by saying there's no gap. You might have well answered with an article about banana flavored vodka. That can make you unconscious too.

Why do you think they have been science has been searching for a unified theory, and close the gap. Consciousness is one idea for closing that gap. Why? Because results from the double split experiment and others suggest that could actually be the case. I don't look for angels, but always like looking at thing from all angels for explanations. I'm agnostic and curious about variables, and my understanding of the world is fluid based off evidence.

Now recognize you maybe just as closed minded as any TBM, not liking ideas different from your world view. This is cognitive dissonance my friend.

Bow your head and say "yes".

You are going to have to bring more to the game than head shocks, and actually deal with the content of my posts in an intellectual manner. You keep talking around the issue without addressing it. This isn't woo its a possible explanation all things considered equal, which they should be in science.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 10:30PM

That's for magicians and tent revivalists--not for mainstream science that searches out and quantifies testable, observable, repeatable and falsifiable empirical evidence for serious construction of workable theories and claims made on the basis of fact.

It is not surprising that you didn't react until now--after I called you out for not earlier dealing with specific scientific evidence per the physical relationships to, explanations for and causations of, consciousness.

I and others have privided you hard evidence of an empirical nature and you still attempt to create your own non-science novelty shop in the halls of msinstream science. Your last post had not one speck of scientificslly-specified data to argue for the non-organic nature, supposedly, of consciousness.

Your gibberish is an insult to thinking. Get out of your horse and buggy and off your phone, in that order, and start some serious reading. Your latest response was Exhibit A in non-reasoned, ignorant, babbling belligerence that is seen among those in the woo-woo world of religious primitiveness, where actual application of the scientific method borders on the heretical.

Prove your protestations with demonstrable, verifiable data that human consciousness is non-material.

Otherwise, rejoin the circus.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2017 11:05PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: thinkings ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 11:56PM

Steve,

I figured it out! You have all the answers science hasn't answered? The grandson of the prophet has spoken the thinking has been done. Silly me, somebody who works with the electrical properties of materials and understands the KNOWN physics behind such mistook that the riddles of the cosmos has been solved by a cartoon artist spamming his view point without addressing any of the gaps. God must work in mysterious ways. In the church of materialism we will hang your portrait over one of the holes that's currently being ignored.

While looking for a logical answer void of dogma all I needed was you dogmatically repeating over and over again there is no connection between continuousness, and only the brain. Isn't everything matter in the first place? Stop the presses the true nature of reality has been solved and will be illustrated in Sunday's paper. The fat lady has sung, Steve has spoken. You would have made a fantastic general authority. You defend the frailty of your house of cards world view just as Oaks defends his views on gays! I promise from here on out to ignore your circular reasoning, arguments from ignorance, and arguments of repetition as official answers to unanswered hypotheses and studies you disagree with. Mormon's honor promise, hand to the square, you are the new science sheriff in town.

I will now spend time unlearning the limitations and understanding of the science I have spent a career learning, and listen to you as my new authority.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: January 02, 2017 12:07AM

you have none of the answers and, hence, speak with no logic or authority.

Which, of course, by your own admission, is immaterial to you.

Invisible gold plates.

Invisible Egyptian papyri.

Invisible Holy Ghost.

Invisible consciousness.

You're in good company.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2017 12:12AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: thinking ( )
Date: January 02, 2017 02:56AM

Nope never claimed answers. Answers only come from hypothesizing and testing which I am always for regardless of outcome. This seems lost on you.

Again with the logical fallacies. This one is a called false equivalence.

Saying that some scientist are claiming consciousness MAY play a fundamental role is reality is hardly the same as saying the gold Invisible gold plates, Invisible Egyptian papyri, and Invisible Holy Ghost are real. Hardly, a faith based claim when you use the word MAY which indicates probability. This is an example of burden of proof fallacy.

When you get sometime read up on logical fallacies. Must needed education. It really helps in creating a coherent mind.

Let me know if you want them identified and listed. Using fallacies to prove your intellectual prowess is a lot like walking around in new pants with your fly down. A lot of people who are unaware won't notice, but those that do will. And you'll look silly.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: January 02, 2017 04:47AM

you have offered up gooey helpings of unstructured and uninformed speculation, with no meaningful scientific content backing. You don't really show much "thinking," given that you don't demonstrate much knowledge of the empirical science on consciousness that is well underway and thst is constantly developing and advancing.

You do, however, have a demonstrated penchant for superficial platitude posturing that would get you an F in a 9th grade science essay assignment. Telling the teacher that you never expect to have sny informed answers won't raise your score. I was suggest you change your approach before the end of the semester.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2017 04:55AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 04:19PM

"It's alive! It's alive; it's alive; it's alive!!"
--Colin Clive as Henry Frankenstein in "Frankenstein" (Universal
1931)

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Posted by: brianberkeley ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 04:21PM

What an incredible posting. I am in awe.

One philosophy, Buddhism, rejects the concept of the soul(atman) in what they call anatta, no soul.

What we think of as the soul is delusion, just the flickering of a candle.

thank you, Steve, for such a comprehensive exegesis

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: January 01, 2017 08:37PM


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