When I was a child David O McKay was the one who had his picture on a church wall. I never had an emotional feeling about this man, while I despised Ezra Taft Benson...

Does anyone know anything about this indidual. Was he relatively benign? My impression was that he was a bureaucrat, but is just a feeling unsubstantiated by fact.

Comments

He interfered with Operation Seagull, a multi-state crack down on polygamy groups in the 1950s. He promised to route out and stop it within the TR interview process. He said he'd punish the practice of polygamy and put an end to it. Since then, it has grown and flourished withing normal wards and in splinter groups and families.

All he did was add a question to the list of TR questions about associating with groups conflicted with the mormon agenda. Polygamists attend bishop interviews and lie. No one else knows what the question is meant to do. Not one person has ever been punished or exed for saying they associate with polygamists. This has resulted in thousands of child bride marriages and heartbreaking domestic abuse.

That it wasn't until Mckay died and was succeeded by Joseph Fielding Smith that polygamists were denied access to temples for their own sealings and marriages (there weren't nearly as many as there are now).

Her source was credible, and I tend to believe it. I can say as a "technical Nevermo," I was unaware of the the extent of polygamous households in the east side upper middle class neighborhood in SLC I grew up in.

I remember one notable difference between Mckay and Fielding Smith was the latter denounced evolution while Mckay was a believer. That was huge issue--now downplayed by the "pay no attention to the elephant in the living room" crowd--in the 1960's, and I credit Smith's "Man, His Origin and Destiny" with keeping me from succumbing to the charms and manipulations of the bishop's daughter.

I was beaten for not rehearsing the TR question lies correctly for dead dunking as a teen. This was necessary because the new question was added by David O. McKay. "Do you associate with apostate groups?"

If I'd answered "yes," my family would have been humiliated because my limited use TR would have been denied and everyone in the ward would know the reason.

My friend no longer posts here (she is from the "old neighborhood," however, and you did meet her here as I recall) but I'm just reporting what she said as well as widespread polygamist practices I was wholly unaware of.

I'm wondering, though, if the motive for "asking the apostate" question didn't have to do with wanting to keep members from seeking authentic information from folks like the Tanners who had begun their operations then. An "authentic hero of mine" was part of the group that was questioning the denial of the PH to African-Americans and widespread LDS racism. Mckay was definitely in the "white and delightsome" camp.

What you can also take to the bank is that dishonesty is widespread among the various polygamist sects, and the mainstream church has essentially turned a blind eye to the problem. I'm also aware of new information on the extent of multi-generational abuse within both the mainstream church and the various splinter sects.

I remember when the question was added. I went to the mainstream mormon ward house and answered the bishop's question with a lie.
You can tell me you know someone smarter than me or that I am a liar. But I speak it as I know it.

You claim some plyg group lied to me? Yes, all plyg groups lie as does everyone I know in the mainstream church and possibly the anonymous person you're citing and claim I know and think has so much credibility.

My only memory of him is my father taking me to his viewing when he died. He was the first dead person I ever saw.

I do own a home in Manti that an elderly neighbor told me was once owned by a friend of McKay's and that McKay often stayed there.

Mckay's niece was Fawn Brodie,the author of the iconic "No Man Knows My History".

My understanding is that the man was fairly benign. I think he was the first of the modern,bureaucratic, CEO type church presidents. He was the first beardless president and probably set the tone in the demand for conformity and correlation that we see now.

David funded Tom Fergeson (sp) who searched for BOM sites. Later, Hugh B Brown asked Tom to have the BOA papyrus translated. He did. Told the church it was a fraud. Tom kept up appearances but lost his faith. TSCC knows their scriptures are false but plug along lying and collecting money...

He was my church president when I was growing up and I loved his white hair and suits. I remember the story from his wife and how it impressed me:

“I accompanied my husband to a dedication of a meetinghouse in Los Angeles. We stopped on Wilshire Boulevard to get our car washed. I sat on a bench and the President was standing over by the car. Suddenly at my elbow I heard a tiny voice say, ‘I guess that man over there loves you.’ Surprised, I turned and saw a beautiful boy about seven years of age with dark curly hair and large brown eyes. ‘What did you say?’

“‘I said, I guess that man over there loves you.’

“‘Why, yes, he loves me; he is my husband. Why do you ask?’

“‘Oh, ‘cuz, the way he smiled at you. Do you know, I’d give anything in the world if my Pop would smile at my Mom that way.’”
_______________________________________________________________
I was on my mission in 1970 and had been with other missionaries to a zone conference in a city about 2 hours from our assigned city. Conference was over and the MP had been very adamant that we all leave the city and get back to work that evening. We of course missed the bus (details long gone) and went back to the church, hoping to find a place to stay.

We were there about an hour and knew the MP was still around, hoping he didn't find us. Late evening, we finally ran into him and his wife and he had just received a phone call from the mission office that Pres.McKay had died, January 18 1970. I was very sad, since by the time we got the news, it was January 19, my birthdate.

I'm sure he had his own issues of secrecy and lying for the lord, but he was "my president" and none since have made any lasting impression on me.

LOL! In that story, Mrs. McKay calls her husband "the president," just like my friend calls her mission president husband, "the president."

Sorry--but that is arrogant!

One evening, when I was about 8, I was stuck home alone in California, washing dishes, and feeling like a slave, when the doorbell rang, and there stood President David O. McKay in all his white-haloed glory! I was speechless, but answered his questions--he was looking for my father--and I had the good manners to invite him to come in and sit, and have a glass of water. He said his wife was waiting in the car.

He was so revered in his time, that none of my friends believed my story.

I knew him only from stories about the close friendship McKay had with my grandfather--they were life-long friends. Sister McKay was nice, too.

I remember one story, that Grandpa and McKay were in a bishopric or stake presidency together, and they went around visiting members. Whenever they would go into a fancy house that was immaculate, and with white carpeting, particularly, McKay would shake his head and say, "Someone is paying a terrible price for all this." He meant not only the money, but that any children living there would probably have to endure strict control at all times. McKay and my grandfather and my father truly loved children. McKay and Grandpa really believed, I think, but my father did not. Dad was a renowned business expert, and turned down their offer for him to work for LDS, Inc. in Salt Lake. My mother wanted to live in SLC, but my father would not budge. He said he didn't want to be "owned" by the church. Mom didn't speak to him for many weeks.

Maybe it was because I was so young, but McKay didn't have that slimy,smug, mean aura that the Big 15 have now. The fact that he gave his niece access to the vaults for her biography of Joseph makes it seem that he felt there was nothing to hide. I think he ruled over arguably the most innocent age of Mormonism.

Funny how after that the Prophet got wise and tried to hide everything. Then Google ended that Age of Concealment and we came to the new Mormon Age of Obfuscation with a Spin. What's next?

He didn't give Fawn Brodie access to the vaults. She took advantage of her same last name and pretended to be David's daughter to sneak in. He was furious.

Where on earth did you get that nonsense? She was his niece and he did give her access. Period.

While I know that wikipedia isn't the best resource, that is one of the places I read that. I do recognize that it could be wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fawn_M._Brodie

In the section that talks about No Man Knows My History:

"Eventually she returned to Utah, where she did research in the LDS Church Archives, gaining access to some highly restricted materials by claiming to be "Brother McKay's daughter," a subterfuge that made her feel "guilty as hell."[18] Her pursuit of little-known documents was not discreet enough, and eventually it attracted the attention of her uncle David O. McKay. After a "painful, acrimonious encounter" with her uncle, Brodie promised never again to consult materials in the Church Archives"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2017 08:50AM by liesarenotuseful.

Thanks for that. I am not one to trust Wikipedia, especially considering the untrustworthy comments that have been made by Mormons over the years regarding Fawn and NMKNMH.

I have read much about Fawn over the years because her book is very near and dear to me and have never read anything about her sneaking into the vaults. There is an actual interview here where Fawn discusses this very issue of her resources and the access granted by McKay. I do tend to accept this as the real deal, and will continue to doubt the Wikipedia version for now, but who knows for sure?

www.salamandersociety.com/interviews/fawnbrodie/

another in a long line of scumbags.

David O, as he was called, was before my time. What others have said was that he was very well-loved by both Mormons and non-Mormons. Unlike today's Morg leaders, he was an educator and has several Utah university buildings named after him on various campuses. I would categorize him as Mormonism's Pope John XXIII. Unlike most Mormon leaders, to me, he did not come off as overly judgmental.

The love between David O and his wife, Jessie, is legendary. During his tenure as church president, a lot of national prejudice against Mormonism ended.

As McKay got older and more feeble, some of the younger Q-15 sharks started circling. Mormonism, IMO, would look very different today had McKay not had some of the bigoted 12 nut jobs opposing him.

The biggest mistake of his presidency was the continued on-going disenfranchisement of blacks. There is evidence that he and a couple of his counselors wanted reforms, but McKay was too old and incapacitated to really run the church.

There are others here, Brian, who can share their perspectives and may contradict some of my observations. I'd welcome that! Hugh B. Brown's Boner.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2017 09:37PM by BYU Boner.

>>I would categorize him as Mormonism's Pope John XXIII.

My mother always spoke warmly of Pope John XXIII and regarded him as being kind, loving, and nonjudgmental. Now the Catholic church appears to have a successor in Pope Francis. The church may have had one in Pope John Paul I as well, but his papacy was short lived.

It's really hard to imagine the Mormon church having a leader embodying these qualities again.

McKay was the first person who I am aware of who distinguished between "policy" and "doctrine." The occasion was in the late 1940s when he did a study for the First Presidency on the priesthood ban, which had since the days of BY been viewed as unquestioned doctrine. McKay, by contrast, described the ban as a "policy" that could, unlike "doctrine," be overturned. In short, he was preparing for an eventual change in the way blacks were treated.

When he chose Hugh B. Brown as a counselor, he went further because Brown's position was that the ban should be overturned immediately. This was as early as 1960. McKay, who had forbidden the publication of Bruce McConkie's Mormon Doctrine, did not tell Brown to shut up but let him continue advocating racial equality. The contrast between how he treated those two men indicates again that McKay hoped that priesthood equalization could occur sooner rather than later.

So I think you are right, Mr. B., to say that McKay might have eliminated the ban. I don't think his failure should be ascribed entirely to infirmity, however, because the dates suggest that he was thinking about this at least a decade--and probably two decades--before his death. The problem was that decisions had to be made through consensus, and there were in the Q15 reactionaries like Harold B. Lee who would never agree to that. By the late 1960s, though, McKay's incapacity definitely did render liberalization even less likely.

In any consensual leadership structure, major adjustments require a prior change in personnel. If McKay had been a CEO with a CEO's powers, I think the church might--as you intimate--have eliminated the priesthood ban as early as the middle 1960s. My quarrel with McKay, as I said elsewhere in this thread, is that he did not reform the process for selecting apostles. The only way to prevent other idiocies, possibly including the war against homosexuals, was to ensure that the reactionaries were weeded out of the church hierarchy and could not establish a bloc in the Q15. He did not adopt such reforms.

He drove a beautiful 1958 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 special

Bitchin' car, that!

RB

Would he be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac if they could afford it ?

In my mind the church went through a transition from a really nasty cult in the 19th century to something approaching a fairly tolerant religion in the middle 20th century before moving back strongly in a cultish direction. That impression is of course subjective and highly biased; it was never a tolerant place for people of color, women in the sense of equality, or truth. But there were a few decades there where the emphasis was more on the individual's relationship with God, acceptance of others, etc. Members and leaders were optimistic enough to believe the church was true and therefore weren't as defensive as today.

McKay presided over the Golden Age, such as it was. He was not a bureaucrat; the church had been small enough to manage without a huge infrastructure. I remember my grandfather telling me about a time when his father was bishop and McKay dropped by the home unannounced to discuss a problem in the ward. My grandfather, a mere kid, was allowed to stay in the room while the discussion occurred. That sort of informality is inconceivable today, naturally.

The problem in that instance was actually related to polygamy. Some man had built an altar in his basement (on Second South??) and was conducting plural marriages there, and McKay wanted to nip that in the bud. I'm sure his attitude was equivocal in the sense that he didn't want to publicize the existence of polygamy, create a big rift in the church, etc. But he was trying to stop polygamy at least to some degree. If I recall correctly, McKay also wanted to end the priesthood ban but was prevented by the hardliners in the Q15. Always a consensus leader, he wouldn't have railroaded things through, choosing instead to let time erode the opposition.

But while I consider him perhaps the most tolerant and gentle president the church ever had, I also believe he failed to protect his own achievements. He saw the danger in McConkie's Mormon Doctrine and prevented its publication but later, probably in an act of generosity to the apostle, allowed it to be printed. Eventually that would redefine Mormonism. He also allowed less progressive apostles the freedom to appoint people like Packer to the quorum. In other words, he either never grasped the war that was being waged for the heart of the church or he valued the friendship of the reactionaries too much to fight them. In either case, he failed to consolidate the limited progress the church had made and permitted the truly nasty apostles and prophets to take charge after his death.

McKay left no legacy.

Very well said! The comment Dave the Atheist shared came from, I believe, Mark Peterson or another one of the 12 nut jobs.

Personally, I saw in Howard W. Hunter a reforming tradition, too. My idiot bishop had to go to my house to hand deliver temple dedication tickets (I had already left) because the prophet wanted everyone who would like to attend, to be able to do so. I witness the dedication while sitting in one of the ordinance rooms.

Unfortunately, Hunter had died, and that little prick, Hinckley, did the dedication. He used the time to rail on one of his England-missionary companions who left the church. Gordo stated that he was a good man, but a covenant breaker. Later, Mrs. Boner told me, I was a covenant breaker. Gee, where did she get that idea from?

Yeah, Peterson was a piece of work.

The one thing I could never understand was how a person was supposed to drive a Cadillac if his hand was tied to a bedpost.

Interesting stories, Lot's Wife. Thank you for sharing them.

It might be the case, as with the Roman Catholic church, where any humane, liberal reforms are temporary at best. A humane, loving pope is followed by one who is more rule-bound and doctrinaire.

Once a month we were exposed to quality literature and music. Correlation got rid of them.

I remember SusieQ wrote about those. The Mormon church in many ways seemed a more humane place then.

My fave David O. McKay story is the one told by Sterling
McMurrin. McMurrin was a high-profile Mormon but didn't buy
the "golden plates" story etc. Hardliners wanted him out.
Joseph Fielding Smith was trying to get excommunication
proceedings started against him. David O. McKay heard about
this and wanted to meet with McMurrin at McMurrin's home.
McMurrin suggested he come to McKay's office. They compromised
on a room on the UofU campus (where McMurrin was a faculty
member).

McKay ended up telling McMurrin that if they held a court of
love for him that he, McKay, would appear in his defense. That
ended up being the end of the excommunicate-McMurrin
proceedings.

I always imagined a stake president holding a court of love on
someone only to have the President of the Church appear in the
defense of that person. Would have been too cool.

Yes, that episode is well documented. McMurrin was not at all a believer; he actually wrote some really good stuff back in the day, though a lot of it is lost because no one pays attention to Mormons in academia.

Contrast the excommunication of Fawn Brodie, McKay's relative. The way I understand it is that McKay was not in a strong position in the leadership at the time and had to sacrifice her in order to avoid a crippling fight with the conservatives in the Q15. I wonder if his treatment of Brodie made him more determined to protect intellectuals like McMurrin later.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The way I understand it is that
> McKay was not in a strong position in the
> leadership at the time and had to sacrifice her in
> order to avoid a crippling fight with the
> conservatives in the Q15.

Fawn Brodie was excommunicated in May of 1946. David O. McKay
was Second Counselor in the First Presidency at the time and was
a senior apostle, second in seniority after George F. Richards,
having been an apostle for 40 years.

Yes, I know the timing and understand that he was quite senior. My observation comes from a statement by his son which, if I recall correctly, was reproduced in the biography.

I don't know why he felt vulnerable (if he did) but it may have had to do with the fact that he was not yet the senior man in the Q12. The account I read said that he felt compelled to approve the excommunication, perhaps due to insistence from the prophet, and later regretted it.

All of this could be wrong. I'm just reproducing an argument that people close to him have advanced. I do think it is reasonable at least as far as his attitude towards McMurrin in later years is concerned. The fates of Browdie and McMurrin were very different.

Reading these comments it strikes me that any and all religions are capable of emulating the excesses of Mormonism. That's in human nature and in the nature of faith vs. reason.

We should condemn Mormonism for its many faults, but we should never assume its competitors in the theism business will pass through history without similar transgressions. They are each and every one run by death-fearing humans trapped within their egos.

Why stop with religious organizations? Every human-made organization, corporation, or system is inherently open to abuse, fraud, deception, and malevolence. Laws and overseers are supposed to insure these structures don't become too abusive. Why should churches be any different--they're human-made organizations.

Mormonism, in particular, suffers because of a lack of transparency, accountability, and sense of infallible hierarchy. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts, absolutely. Mormon leaders have absolute power with very limited oversight. Power to the Mormon people!

I read part of a David o McKay Bio that came out about 12 years ago. I've always gotten the impression that he was an admirable person, surrounded by less than Admirable people. *cough* McConkie Packer Fielding Smith Benson *cough*

I read all of this, and I remember that while the church has not always had problems with its nitpicky obsession with dress and grooming, and With correlation driven to insanity, and with race relations, and discrimination against gays, etc. etc...

Even then, with the church being lead with a dapper old gent like David O. McKay, it still believed in bizarre, strange, occultic, weird mystical temple ordinances where you watched a bizarre play where old people dressed up as Adam, Eve, the devil, and prior to the 30's or something, a Protestant minister, and then Covenanted to slit your throat and disembowel yourself if you ever revealed the secret doings.

Good to know some things about Mormonism have always been and probably always will be constant.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2017 06:24AM by midwestanon.

midwestanon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> believed in bizarre, strange, occultic, weird
> mystical temple ordinances where you watched a
> bizarre play where old people dressed up as Adam,
> Eve, the devil, and prior to the 30's or
> something, a Protestant minister,

Protestant minister was removed in 1990.

I met David O. McKay at the Lion House in SLC, Utah in 1958! He was the resident, false profit who presided over the so-called, mormon church! My parents fell for all the mormon lies when he was the purported special witness for Christ on the earth! My Mother/her children - tnurg included, were practicing Methodists when Dad told us definitively that we would be baptized into the mormon church on such/such a date - no discussion allowed!

Based on the degenerate direction the CULT has traveled in my lifetime, I'd have to surmise that he was the best of the false profits of jo smith jr. - if there is such a thing!? Hugh B. Brown was one of his councilors - a man with a unique sense of morality who couldn't muster the strength to walk away/break ties with the CULT, even though he like the rest of them knew it was a fraud! In retrospect, I expected more from McKay/ Brown! Oh well! As we see here, the evil CULT does corrupt even the best of its victims!

In the end, I do believe that most of us were unwittingly, whores for the corporation of the president - before individual integrity won the day! A High-Five for the Post-Mormon Community is in order here! As Always, tnurg (GRUNT)

IMHO, David was a good man. He was inspiring and represented goodness when I was young. I don't recall anything from him that was cult like. I loved his white hair that just seemed to be a hallo. Maybe it was youth and innocense, but I loved him. I looked up to him. He seemed so kind and loving.

All those who preceeded and followed him were evil and controlling bastards. He represented everything kind and loving to me. When he died, I was sad...

I think this is a story I heard about David McKay. I heard that whenever he was sitting on a stand with his wife, and the sacrament was passed, he always made the passer serve his wife before him.

It's crazy to assume that polygamist group members were allowed in Temples until then. I grew up knowing many polygamists in many apostate groups and the only ones who went to temples did so by lying or they did it before they they joined those groups. This was 20 years before David O.'d death.

I remember when the "apostate group" question was added. Plygs who still attended mormon churches were planning and practicing how to respond to questioning. It was a major topic of discussion at meetings, family home evenings, and or when plyg women worked on quilts or canned tomatoes together.

Cheryl, it's really fascinating to get your insiders view of polygamy.

I do know how we felt when he passed away. We went from kindly and dignified guy, beloved even to the non-Mormon population, to the snivelling and prissy delusionally infallible Joseph Fielding Smith.